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Jun 16, 2020
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#61
Hear, hear!

If the standard for our historical figures is perfection then none will be left to study. Harriet Tubman was probably a far better person than Thomas Jefferson, but Jefferson was far more impactful as far as the United States becoming and then surviving as a fledgling nation that would eventually become a super power.
being perfect and being a human trafficker and a rapist are quite different. Should hitler get a statue because he rebuilt the german economy and completed the autobahn? Nobody may have that much impact on germany ever.Guess how many nazi statues there are in Germany? Zero
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#62
Hear, hear!

If the standard for our historical figures is perfection then none will be left to study. Harriet Tubman was probably a far better person than Thomas Jefferson, but Jefferson was far more impactful as far as the United States becoming and then surviving as a fledgling nation that would eventually become a super power.
People reaching into history to try and judge people by today's standards are fools, at best.

Jefferson wasn't perfect. Neither was anyone else in history, but his warts are for real. The Founding Fathers will disappoint most people applying today's sensibilities. Doing so is doing yourself zero good in trying to understand who these people are.

By that standard, Cortez was brilliant for shutting down the slavery, child murder, and general evil of the Aztecs. So was Pizarro. Both of those empires were built on slavery and used child sacrifice regularly. The Aztec are usually seen as worse, but Inca did it too.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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#63
People reaching into history to try and judge people by today's standards are fools, at best.

Jefferson wasn't perfect. Neither was anyone else in history, but his warts are for real. The Founding Fathers will disappoint most people applying today's sensibilities. Doing so is doing yourself zero good in trying to understand who these people are.

By that standard, Cortez was brilliant for shutting down the slavery, child murder, and general evil of the Aztecs. So was Pizarro. Both of those empires were built on slavery and used child sacrifice regularly. The Aztec are usually seen as worse, but Inca did it too.
bill cosby had a university building named after him that was renamed. Imagine someone saying using qualudes on women back then was common practice. We should not use today’s standards on him. See how ridiculous that sounds.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#64
bill cosby had a university building named after him that was renamed. Imagine someone saying using qualudes on women back then was common practice. We should not use today’s standards on him. See how ridiculous that sounds.
Drugging someone for sexual purposes was very illegal then. I don't care what you think of it. Studying history is a bit more complex than labeling people good and bad. Alexander the Great isn't called "the Great" because he is such a good dude.

Expecting people who lived centuries ago to live up to your ideas of right and wrong isn't going to do you any good.

Most heroes are someone's villain.

A good example...Bartolome De Las Casas worked tirelessly to get the Spanish Crown to reign in the conquistadors for their brutal treatment of the Natives. He wrote long and descriptive narratives of the brutality that Natives suffered in the name of the King. It worked to an extent with the New Laws of 1542, but that doesn't tell you much about the guy.

He was a prickly loner that would probably had more success had he worked with other Spaniards that were trying to fight for the same goal. In that, he was a bit of a self-serving blowhard. He used to actually run an Encomienda that depended on Native slaves.

Then there was his endorsement of using African slaves. That he didn't mind in the slightest. Las Casas IS a hero on one hand, and a villain on the other.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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#66
Hear, hear!

If the standard for our historical figures is perfection then none will be left to study. Harriet Tubman was probably a far better person than Thomas Jefferson, but Jefferson was far more impactful as far as the United States becoming and then surviving as a fledgling nation that would eventually become a super power.
being perfect and being a human trafficker and a rapist are quite different. Should hitler get a statue because he rebuilt the german economy and completed the autobahn? Nobody may have that much impact on germany ever.Guess how many nazi statues there are in Germany? Zero
I guess you won’t be supporting the inevitable erection of a statue of George Floyd.


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Jun 16, 2020
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#67
I guess you won’t be supporting the inevitable erection of a statue of George Floyd.


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why would I? That comparison is quite distasteful though. Guy may not have been a saint and doesn’t deserve a statue but I can empathize with someone who was strangled by police for a non violent crime.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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#68
I guess you won’t be supporting the inevitable erection of a statue of George Floyd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
why would I? That comparison is quite distasteful though. Guy may not have been a saint and doesn’t deserve a statue but I can empathize with someone who was strangled by police for a non violent crime.
Many people would disagree. Anyone that can manage 4 funerals in 3 different cities over the course of a week surely deserves a statue. (Sarcasm?)


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Jul 22, 2011
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#69
being perfect and being a human trafficker and a rapist are quite different. Should hitler get a statue because he rebuilt the german economy and completed the autobahn? Nobody may have that much impact on germany ever.Guess how many nazi statues there are in Germany? Zero
Washington? Jefferson? Etc. Should these slave owners be erased from our history? Should they be removed from our money and the names of our cities?
 
Jul 22, 2011
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#70
Jimmy Page is one of the greatest guitarists to have ever lived. I also realize he did horrible things to women and underage girls. I still like to listen to Led Zeppelin and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has every right and duty to enshrine Page. We can judge the totality of a human being.

Universities have a duty and a right to strip Bill Cosby of honorary degrees and building names. Two years after he's dead though, I bet reruns of the Cosby Show start showing up on streaming services. It's just a good show and it did more to help race relations in the 80's than a thousand protests.
 

OSUCowboy787

Territorial Marshal
Dec 31, 2008
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#71
Jimmy Page is one of the greatest guitarists to have ever lived. I also realize he did horrible things to women and underage girls. I still like to listen to Led Zeppelin and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has every right and duty to enshrine Page. We can judge the totality of a human being.

Universities have a duty and a right to strip Bill Cosby of honorary degrees and building names. Two years after he's dead though, I bet reruns of the Cosby Show start showing up on streaming services. It's just a good show and it did more to help race relations in the 80's than a thousand protests.
What about Michael Jackson? Should we remove all references of him since he molested little kids?
 
Jul 22, 2011
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#73
What about Michael Jackson? Should we remove all references of him since he molested little kids?
I still hear and see a lot of references to Michael Jackson. I've heard his music played in public, unashamedly. It seems possible to still enjoy the music of a pedophile predator. Certainly still hear "Rock and Roll Part 2" by Gary Glitter at most sporting events. Google THAT guy.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#78
Imagine if Sean Hannity went on Fox and said the things Don Lemon just did.

He literally said that Black LIves Matter doesn't stand for All Black Lives Matter. It's just about police brutality.

Really? Chicago is having another record year in black deaths. They don't care. NYC is have a major surge. They don't care.

Sad man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlN1DBCUeYo&t=302s