VP Harris adopts Trump policy on Immigration

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OrangeFan69

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#21
You really still go with this debunked claim? You don't believe ice and cbp officials that have started they've caught ms-13 gang members? Because that is who Trump was talking about, and anytime that has heard him speak of this would know that because he is very clear to state he's talking about the gangs, not all of those crossing the border.

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Yes, if a million people migrate; there will be problematic people as well; I think classifying the majority of immigrants as felons-in-waiting is asinine and I believe you are way more intelligent than that.
 

Birry

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#22
It's weird that we have two wildly different high-level politicians more or less agreeing on a policy, but the focus has become their perceived motives instead of the policy itself, which hasn't really changed.

All of these things are true, and it makes political discussions particularly difficult.
1. Trump obviously has poor, petty, and provocative communication, so he made himself an easy target.
2. The media craves people like Trump. He freely generates "content" for them, and they can stir him up easily to create even more "content".
3. The general population invests way too much time in what politicians say and what media produces.
4. Tribalism is so bad that even agreements are treated like disagreements to justify the existence of the tribes.

Kinda what he says, here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD_1MzqXEik


I know this post won't change anyone's mind. Carry on.
 
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CocoCincinnati

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#23
Arguing politics is an exercise in futility. People believe what they believe regardless of reality, and will never admit different, even when slapped in the face with facts. Just the way the GOP and DNC like it.
 

Cimarron

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#25
You are correct but don't bother with that guy. He has an agenda and it's not worth wasting your time to respond to him. Personally I don't have Cim on ignore but I ignore anything he says. 6 months ago he was totally cool with overthrowing the government. Your best action to what he says is to ignore it and hope he just goes away.

Don't feed trolls.
How exactly do you come to that conclusion?
 
May 4, 2011
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#27
He never did, he talked about ms-13 the violent gang.

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So "some, I assume, are good people" refers to members of Ms-13? It's clearly the same group of "not their best" that he was referring to in the same sentence. Let's use versions of his exact quote and insert another group to see if you at all feel the same.

"When Christians do mission work, they aren't sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing crime. They're bringing drugs. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Does it really seem like we're talking about the minority of priests, pastors, and missionaries who abuse their power (and by the way, have been caught doing all of the above)? All I did was replace "Mexico sends their people" with "Christians do mission work". The quote is otherwise the exact same.

I can buy that this was lazy rhetoric and Trump really meant to only refer to undocumented immigrants who come via land border crossings, but even then he's clearly trying to say that most undocumented immigrants do all of those bad things and a minority are the normal people escaping bad situations. Maybe you like his approach, maybe you agree with this sentiment and think that data aren't accurate, but you have to do some pretty strong mental gymnastics to say he meant anything other than most (undocumented) Mexican immigrants are all of those bad things and a minority are good people.
 

RPG

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#28
It's weird that we have two wildly different high-level politicians more or less agreeing on a policy, but the focus has become their perceived motives instead of the policy itself, which hasn't really changed.

All of these things are true, and it makes political discussions particularly difficult.
1. Trump obviously has poor, petty, and provocative communication, so he made himself an easy target.
2. The media craves people like Trump. He freely generates "content" for them, and they can stir him up easily to create even more "content".
3. The general population invests way too much time in what politicians say and what media produces.
4. Tribalism is so bad that even agreements are treated like disagreements to justify the existence of the tribes.

Kinda what he says, here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD_1MzqXEik



I know this post won't change anyone's mind. Carry on.
Yep. We live in a binary and sound-bite world.
 
May 4, 2011
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#29
Could you clarify if you think that the border situation is better now than it was under Trump?
Never said anything about that, just what Trump said and what he clearly meant. It does seem like more people are trying to cross now than most, if not all, of Trump's term. I'm not sure how that changes the quote or its meaning. I'm guessing your implication is that kind of rhetoric is needed to deter people? If so, that's a different discussion than what he said and meant with the quote I referenced.
 

OrangeFan69

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#30
I think the border situation is the same as it was before Trump.

All the major cities (Nogales, Matamoras, Tijuana, Juarez, Laredo etc.) already had walls; In the middle of nowhere walls were not necessary because biometrics/ motion sensors already did the job.

If you want to discuss adding additional inspection capacity and increased staffing at established points and ports of entry I'll happily listen and agree.

"Build That Wall" was just a mating call for scapegoating bozos.
 
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Sep 3, 2010
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#31
Never said anything about that, just what Trump said and what he clearly meant. It does seem like more people are trying to cross now than most, if not all, of Trump's term. I'm not sure how that changes the quote or its meaning. I'm guessing your implication is that kind of rhetoric is needed to deter people? If so, that's a different discussion than what he said and meant with the quote I referenced.
I just think that we are wasting alot of oxygen arguing about what Trump said a few years ago and not focusing on what the current crisis is. Are there rapists, murderers, child traffickers, and really bad folks waltzing across our border? Absofrigginlutely!!! I just can't, for the life of me, fathom how anyone can look at what is going on at border and be OK with it. I know that's not what you're saying , I was just curious if you thought this administration is doing a good job down there. Unlike most on this board, I quit focusing on Trump on January 20th. Still waiting for someone to list the things that Biden has done that will help our country....other than not saying mean things...there's always that.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpk2KN6mnrg
I thought AOC and the squad were some fringe element of the Democrats, not the mainstream. I imagine AOC would criticize Lenin himself if she thought it would make the blue check mark lemmings on Twitter like her more....but you are right a democrat is criticizing this. Good job.
 
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#33
I just think that we are wasting alot of oxygen arguing about what Trump said a few years ago and not focusing on what the current crisis is. Are there rapists, murderers, child traffickers, and really bad folks waltzing across our border? Absofrigginlutely!!! I just can't, for the life of me, fathom how anyone can look at what is going on at border and be OK with it. I know that's not what you're saying , I was just curious if you thought this administration is doing a good job down there. Unlike most on this board, I quit focusing on Trump on January 20th. Still waiting for someone to list the things that Biden has done that will help our country....other than not saying mean things...there's always that.
Then you might also call out the others on both sides who did the same thing before I jumped in.

If you're really wanting to know my opinion on managing the border, I actually agree with some of the VPs recent statements, as much as it pains me to say it. If we want to fix the border, we need to fix the other countries with migratory pressures of violence, poverty, and corruption. The overwhelming majority of migrants don't want to leave their countries and most intend on going back once things get better. Also, most migrants aren't coming from Mexico anymore, but Mexico often does too little to help the situation. They don't support enough asylees, help enough with stemming violence and poverty in the other countries, or enforcing their own migration laws in instances when people are passing through. Trump had a decent point on some of that front, too (pains me to say that). We're only 5 months into the current administration so it will be interesting to see what their solutions actually wind up being and I'll reserve judgment until we're farther in. This is not a problem with short term fixes that will work. The only real stance that I take is that we should view migrants as real people. They actually are a lot like you, me, and everyone else in our own society. That doesn't mean open borders, but it should inform how we understand their motivations.

A few other points since they're relevant here. Human trafficking is a bigger problem because of migratory pressures, both because the corruption covers up human trafficking and people are willing to take those risks to leave awful situations. Fix those other issues and you reduce trafficking. The vast majority of drug trafficking occurs through ports of entry and shipping, not land border crossings like you're implying. That's inefficient and more dangerous for them. Finally, crossing the border is not easy and we intentionally made it that way really starting under Clinton. It involves substantial risk of death and capture. Most people who cross via the border in the way you're imagining know that in advance. No one has been "waltzing" across the border since the 90s.
 

Donnyboy

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#34
She’s down there because migrant numbers are about to drop. They drop every summer because it’s dangerous to walk hundreds of miles through the desert in the summer. Then in a couple of months she’ll take credit for a drop in people arriving at the border……the media will say she is doing a great job and then all the kids will be back in all the cages in fall/winter/spring and they won’t say a word. They absolutely lied about their immigration policy. But they aren’t Trump so everything is fine. That is not an endorsement of Trump. But we live in a world where no matter how bad the person you like is what they do is ok…..Trump enjoyed this division more than anyone has to this point. But what she is doing is 100% BS photo op.
 

OrangeFan69

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#35
She’s down there because migrant numbers are about to drop. They drop every summer because it’s dangerous to walk hundreds of miles through the desert in the summer. Then in a couple of months she’ll take credit for a drop in people arriving at the border……the media will say she is doing a great job and then all the kids will be back in all the cages in fall/winter/spring and they won’t say a word. They absolutely lied about their immigration policy. But they aren’t Trump so everything is fine. That is not an endorsement of Trump. But we live in a world where no matter how bad the person you like is what they do is ok…..Trump enjoyed this division more than anyone has to this point. But what she is doing is 100% BS photo op.
Kind of bummed she didn't wear the Timbs when she come off that airplane.
 

Cimarron

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#36
Then you might also call out the others on both sides who did the same thing before I jumped in.

If you're really wanting to know my opinion on managing the border, I actually agree with some of the VPs recent statements, as much as it pains me to say it. If we want to fix the border, we need to fix the other countries with migratory pressures of violence, poverty, and corruption. The overwhelming majority of migrants don't want to leave their countries and most intend on going back once things get better. Also, most migrants aren't coming from Mexico anymore, but Mexico often does too little to help the situation. They don't support enough asylees, help enough with stemming violence and poverty in the other countries, or enforcing their own migration laws in instances when people are passing through. Trump had a decent point on some of that front, too (pains me to say that). We're only 5 months into the current administration so it will be interesting to see what their solutions actually wind up being and I'll reserve judgment until we're farther in. This is not a problem with short term fixes that will work. The only real stance that I take is that we should view migrants as real people. They actually are a lot like you, me, and everyone else in our own society. That doesn't mean open borders, but it should inform how we understand their motivations.

A few other points since they're relevant here. Human trafficking is a bigger problem because of migratory pressures, both because the corruption covers up human trafficking and people are willing to take those risks to leave awful situations. Fix those other issues and you reduce trafficking. The vast majority of drug trafficking occurs through ports of entry and shipping, not land border crossings like you're implying. That's inefficient and more dangerous for them. Finally, crossing the border is not easy and we intentionally made it that way really starting under Clinton. It involves substantial risk of death and capture. Most people who cross via the border in the way you're imagining know that in advance. No one has been "waltzing" across the border since the 90s.
Just curious, why does it "pain" you to agree with someone? Seems to me that's a step in the right direction, or at least something where people who may differ ideologically on other issues but can come together for the greater good on some issues where they have common ground.

That shouldn't be painful.
 
May 4, 2011
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#37
When Harris says that she is focused on fixing the countries that people are fleeing what does that mean? How do we, as Americans, fix these other countries? Send them billions of $? Pretty sure we've tried that. Those $ always end up in the pockets of corrupt politicians and nothing ever gets fixed. I live in a community with a very high Mexican population and I constantly ask them their opinion on immigration. Even they agree that it all starts with a very secure border...which we don't have. Harris isn't going to fix anything and she never intended to fix anything. If they didn't think that the immigrants would eventually vote for democrats they would get serious about the border. They can feel the black vote slipping away and if their constant effort to race bait and divide the country runs out of gas they will need a very large voting block to replace them. I have two employees that are currently trying to get citizenship finalized for their spouses who immigrated the right way and you can't imagine the BS going on on that side of this issue. We have to shut down the border before we start talking about any of these other feel good horse shit ideas that politicians on both sides of the aisle come up with.
Most undocumented folks don't come by land border anymore. That gets all the attention, but that's not the main problem even for a deterrence focused system. Moreover, when people do cross on the land border, they are not mostly sneaking across, they are driving across or wanting to get caught. Many of them think they have good asylum cases and getting caught inside the US allows them to present it. As a final point on the idea of prioritizing "securing the border," the fastest growing undocumented group does not even come from the western hemisphere. It's people from Asia who mostly do not come through the land border, though some try.

You can throw your hands up and say "we can't fix those other countries" and you might even be right, but without improving them there will continue to be people risking their lives to sneak into the US. There will also be people who figure out ways around whatever deterrent system you put up. The question becomes what's going to have the biggest effect and as above, adding some fence and wall isn't it. You also have questions about how do we manage the obligations we have to accept asylees, particularly from destabilized areas that we had a hand in destabilizing as recently as the 1980s (not saying it's mostly on us, but we did have a role). For all of those reasons, I'll reiterate that this does not have simple solutions. There are no quick fixes, despite the simplistic appeal that "securing the border" has. I'll leave it open to maybe you have some ideas about securing the border that deal with this complexity, but I haven't heard them from anyone yet.
 
May 4, 2011
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#38
Just curious, why does it "pain" you to agree with someone? Seems to me that's a step in the right direction, or at least something where people who may differ ideologically on other issues but can come together for the greater good on some issues where they have common ground.

That shouldn't be painful.
Both said both things for the wrong reasons. The VP wants to deflect and Trump wanted to just look "tough on Mexico". Trump's history of comments about immigrants don't exactly make him someone I'd want to agree with either. I'll still admit it when I do though.
 

wrenhal

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#39
You really still go with this debunked claim? You don't believe ice and cbp officials that have started they've caught ms-13 gang members? Because that is who Trump was talking about, and anytime that has heard him speak of this would know that because he is very clear to state he's talking about the gangs, not all of those crossing the border.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Yes, if a million people migrate; there will be problematic people as well; I think classifying the majority of immigrants as felons-in-waiting is asinine and I believe you are way more intelligent than that.
When did he say the majority instead of talking about ms-13?

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wrenhal

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#40
I think the border situation is the same as it was before Trump.

All the major cities (Nogales, Matamoras, Tijuana, Juarez, Laredo etc.) already had walls; In the middle of nowhere walls were not necessary because biometrics/ motion sensors already did the job.

If you want to discuss adding additional inspection capacity and increased staffing at established points and ports of entry I'll happily listen and agree.

"Build That Wall" was just a mating call for scapegoating bozos.
There was a lot of wall that needed replacing because it was just fencing and there were places originally supposed to have wall that were never built and he was trying to finish that. He was only trying to fund what was already called for in law that I believe was passed bipartisan under Clinton? He also had funding for upping the technology at other places. All of that, wall building AND technology upgrades, was stopped by Biden's executive order.

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