USA...our country/government...good, bad, ugly

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PF5

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Jan 3, 2014
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Sounds like a good plan to help the teacher shortage. The teacher shortage is very real right now. And mostly everywhere.
here's an idea: pay teachers more! and let them do their job! no way in hell I would be a teacher for the low pay and crap they deal with...
a good plan? hire a vet that may not have a degree or training or 'calling'...cuz that's what teachers are; they are 'called' into that profession (much like a minister) takes a special kind of human to do their job, but others want to belittle the profession...and this stunt does nothing but further devalues this profession...
 
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Mar 11, 2006
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here's an idea: pay teachers more! and let them do their job! no way in hell I would be a teacher for the low pay and crap they deal with...
a good plan? hire a vet that may not have a degree or training or 'calling'...cuz that's what teachers are; they are 'called' into that profession (much like a minister) takes a special kind of human to do their job, but others want to belittle the profession...and this stunt just nothing but further devalues this profession...
I am definitely an advocate for more teacher pay. They are entirely underpaid. 100% onboard.

But asinine that teachers unions, not teachers, just turn up their noses on an idea that will enhance education of youth and reduce bloated class size. Most all states have forms of alternative teacher certification. And that has not led to lowering of teaching. It helps students and other teachers by providing additional resources.

Some people only pay lip service to helping youth education. People that continue to put up hurdles for improvements are the problem.
 

PF5

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Jan 3, 2014
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I am definitely an advocate for more teacher pay. They are entirely underpaid. 100% onboard.

But asinine that teachers unions, not teachers, just turn up their noses on an idea that will enhance education of youth and reduce bloated class size. Most all states have forms of alternative teacher certification. And that has not led to lowering of teaching. It helps students and other teachers by providing additional resources.

Some people only pay lip service to helping youth education. People that continue to put up hurdles for improvements are the problem.
teachers are leaving profession MOSTLY because of pay...so instead of raising teachers pay and probably solving crisis that way, they want to change the criteria and requirements to become a teacher...probably a bad analogy, but; you have a factory in which you must be 18 yrs old and do a 3 month training (unpaid)...oh, and they also monitor the workers and if a worker uses their right hand when doing a step instead of their left, they are reprimanded and given a week off with no pay...people start leaving the factory cuz they are getting paid minimum wage and can't afford to live on salary...factory, decides to lower age requirement to 15 and no training...and people are saying, "why are the factory workers so upset; it lessens their workload?"...
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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If you truly think that is remotely the same thing ---- no reason at all replying to you. :facepalm:
What you are saying is that nurses have skills that require completion of nursing training to be safe to do appropriately but teaching is something that can be done by serving in the military? Because, I worked with some exceptional medics in the military and there are many nursing jobs that I am confident they could do competently. But, for jobs that actually have critical outcomes, we standardize to insure professionalism. We don’t let the best private pilot in the world fly a 747 full of people. Even if he was a crew chief in the military.

I believe that teaching our children is critical enough that we need to insure a minimum standard of training. Obviously, you don’t. But back at ya with the facepalm for that thinking. Maybe if we treated teaching as important as some nurse taking blood pressure and giving Tylenol and vaccines in a clinic we wouldn’t have such a crap system.
 

StillwaterTownie

Federal Marshal
Jun 18, 2010
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Where else but Stillwater
I am definitely an advocate for more teacher pay. They are entirely underpaid. 100% onboard.

But asinine that teachers unions, not teachers, just turn up their noses on an idea that will enhance education of youth and reduce bloated class size. Most all states have forms of alternative teacher certification. And that has not led to lowering of teaching. It helps students and other teachers by providing additional resources.

Some people only pay lip service to helping youth education. People that continue to put up hurdles for improvements are the problem.
So, in Oklahoma after everybody has to pay 3 cents more tax on a gallon of gas and oil companies have to pay a higher tax, Oklahoma teachers are still underpaid? If true, what a shame, since it was like pulling hen's teeth to get Republicans to raise those taxes.
 
Dec 18, 2019
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Central Oklahoma
It’s not all pay. California has one of the highest rankings in the country for pay and also at the top of teacher shortages. Talk to some veteran teachers and ask them if they are encouraging kids to enter the teaching profession. We have a number of them in our family and every of one of them has the same complaint at the top of the list by a long shot. Kids behavior and parents attitudes. It’s a small minority but it’s enough to make the profession miserable.

Look at little league in this country. The people who make great coaches don’t want to do it because of the parents.
 
Dec 18, 2019
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Central Oklahoma
There is a critical nursing shortage, too. Why not just let vets without a nursing degree do some nursing too?
Why is their a shortage? I know it’s been that way for quite a while now but I’ve always viewed the nursing profession as one of the best careers for the time spent in school.

OSU put together some data and found there are 12.5 open jobs for every student coming out of veterinary school today.
 

PF5

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Jan 3, 2014
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It’s not all pay. California has one of the highest rankings in the country for pay and also at the top of teacher shortages. Talk to some veteran teachers and ask them if they are encouraging kids to enter the teaching profession. We have a number of them in our family and every of one of them has the same complaint at the top of the list by a long shot. Kids behavior and parents attitudes. It’s a small minority but it’s enough to make the profession miserable.

Look at little league in this country. The people who make great coaches don’t want to do it because of the parents.
good point...I said mostly pay, but that's probably not accurate...they are under paid in regards to the workload, that gets added onto each year...kids behavior, the pandemic, covering other classes, stress of testing, stress of not being able to teach how they want/how they used to for fear of saying the wrong thing, underappreciated, etc...
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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Why is their a shortage? I know it’s been that way for quite a while now but I’ve always viewed the nursing profession as one of the best careers for the time spent in school.

OSU put together some data and found there are 12.5 open jobs for every student coming out of veterinary school today.
There are lots of reasons.
Many nurses go to nurse practitioner school and become "providers' not nurses.
American healthcare has corporatized and corporations see the workers as the major expense that gets in the way of bigger profits. They squeeze all they can out of that expense.
The American healthcare consumer gets ripped off and knows it. Even though a nurse is not the person ripping them off the nurse is the face that they see. A nurse was complaining today that she got written up (and counseled by administration) for not refilling the patient and family's Mountain Dew fast enough.

In the wrong situation, it can be a soul-crushing job. There are many, many wrong situations these days.
 
May 4, 2011
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Charleston, SC
It’s not all pay. California has one of the highest rankings in the country for pay and also at the top of teacher shortages. Talk to some veteran teachers and ask them if they are encouraging kids to enter the teaching profession. We have a number of them in our family and every of one of them has the same complaint at the top of the list by a long shot. Kids behavior and parents attitudes. It’s a small minority but it’s enough to make the profession miserable.

Look at little league in this country. The people who make great coaches don’t want to do it because of the parents.
I actually agree with this to some extent, but would add there are multiple reasons that exist to varying degrees in each state. Pay, public vilification, parental over or underinvolvement, overuse of standardized tests, and dealing with ever changing legislative and administrative requirements. More simply, you get paid mediocre to crap money to get treated poorly to perform an impossible task.
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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Look at little league in this country. The people who make great coaches don’t want to do it because of the parents.
Several years ago my kid signed up for soccer. I was called and asked if I would be the coach. I said no because my shiftwork would make it difficult to make all the practices and games. I was asked if I would be an assistant coach so I said I could do that.

Nobody else signed up at all so I was the "assistant" to nobody.

I told every parent that I'd be happy to discuss any issues. But, if I was ready for the discussion to be done and they were not then that meant that they wanted to be the coach more than me and I would gladly and immediately hand it to them.

I never had a single issue.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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What you are saying is that nurses have skills that require completion of nursing training to be safe to do appropriately but teaching is something that can be done by serving in the military? Because, I worked with some exceptional medics in the military and there are many nursing jobs that I am confident they could do competently. But, for jobs that actually have critical outcomes, we standardize to insure professionalism. We don’t let the best private pilot in the world fly a 747 full of people. Even if he was a crew chief in the military.

I believe that teaching our children is critical enough that we need to insure a minimum standard of training. Obviously, you don’t. But back at ya with the facepalm for that thinking. Maybe if we treated teaching as important as some nurse taking blood pressure and giving Tylenol and vaccines in a clinic we wouldn’t have such a crap system.
If someone in the military is qualified then great.

I have completed the Oklahoma alternative teaching certification process …twice. One around 2000 and a second time just last year.
I am not a teacher, but I wanted to understand the process for my school and educational board work. The certification tests are not easy. It is a great avenue to get interested qualified people into the classrooms.

We need more teachers in the classrooms.. not less! People placing additional roadblocks (or just arguing against one without fact) to lower our bloated classrooms are doing an incredible disservice to our teachers, show little care for student needs, and are not respecting the needs out of educators. It is sad, but not surprising that some continue to push against making life easier for our teachers.
 
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good point...I said mostly pay, but that's probably not accurate...they are under paid in regards to the workload, that gets added onto each year...kids behavior, the pandemic, covering other classes, stress of testing, stress of not being able to teach how they want/how they used to for fear of saying the wrong thing, underappreciated, etc...
Correct. Again, why turn our noses to ideas and solutions that will help our educators?
 

PF5

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Latest rankings help explain teacher shortage oea

Oklahoma teachers remain 34th nationally in average teacher pay while the state’s per pupil expenditure remains in the bottom six, according to the latest Ranking of the States released by the National Education Association recently.

NEA also released for the first time the Education Support Professional Earnings report, ranking Oklahoma’s school support staff earnings 50th nationally.

The state’s average teacher salary is $54,762 for 2020-21, which ranks Oklahoma 34th nationally and fourth among our surrounding states. That figure is just $666 higher than 2019-20. The regional average is $54,622 and the national average is $65,293.

Oklahoma schools’ per pupil expenditures jumped up one spot to 45th nationally with an average of $10,553 spent per student in 2020-21 compared to $9,830 in 2019-20. Only Missouri is lower in the surrounding states at $10,481.

The state’s public school full-time ESPs earn an average of just $26,121, next to last nationally among all 50 states and Washington, D.C. In this study, fulltime is defined as 30 hours or more a week. NEA used data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s American Community Survey – a large, continuously collected survey that uses a nationwide sample. Earnings averages are calculated using five years of ACS data (2015–2019).

“It’s shocking to see these numbers in print, but they really help inform us of why we have a teacher shortage and why our schools have a hard time finding bus drivers, custodians and other support staff,” said Katherine Bishop, OEA President. “While our teachers and support professionals did receive good raises after the 2018 walkout, we have failed to continue investing enough in public education.”

Bishop pointed out that Oklahoma school funding faced 10 years of cuts prior to 2018. By not continuing to invest enough, the state risks falling back to the bottom of the national rankings.

“We obviously can’t fix our funding issues overnight,” she said, “that’s why it’s important to continually invest in our students. We have crowded classrooms and too few young people enrolling in our colleges of education. Meanwhile, our student population continues to grow. We simply can’t be complacent when it comes to our children’s future.”
 
Mar 11, 2006
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it's a band aid for a compound fracture...just take teaching certificates away, take college education and training away...
I am not claiming the policy is a panacea that solves all ills. But it is a great idea that builds upon successful alternative certification programs and helps many.
It is also a great way to add diversity to the teaching staff. Nearly 40% of new teachers joining through ACP are males. And many becoming needed role models in urban schools.
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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If someone in the military is qualified then great.

I have completed the Oklahoma alternative teaching certification process …twice. One around 2000 and a second time just last year.
I am not a teacher, but I wanted to understand the process for my school and educational board work. The certification tests are not easy.

We need more teachers in the classrooms.. not less! People placing additional roadblocks (or just arguing against one without fact) to lower our bloated classrooms are doing an incredible disservice to our teachers, show little care for student needs, and are not respecting the needs out of educators. It is sad, but not surprising that some continue to push against making life easier for our teachers.
Well, by all means, if you took the Oklahoma alternative certification process twice then you obviously know more about how to help Florida teachers than the Florida teachers do. Those poor stupid Florida teachers fighting against the wonderful help you are advocating. How disrespectful they are to themselves!
 
Mar 11, 2006
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Well, by all means, if you took the Oklahoma alternative certification process twice then you obviously know more about how to help Florida teachers than the Florida teachers do. Those poor stupid Florida teachers fighting against the wonderful help you are advocating. How disrespectful they are to themselves!
Florida teachers fighting against what? Assume you are referring to the FL teacher union? Are you saying that teachers would be against getting help in schools? Where are you hearing that?

I “assume” those same union leaders are also against merit pay for teachers as well. I “assume” many unions leaders agreed with the NEA about keeping schools closed as recently as four months ago. Neither items are good for teachers or students.