Southern Baptist Convention Sexual Misconduct Report shows SBC mishandled or ignored claims last year

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May 4, 2011
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#22
It's a good read and I really liked it. I often disagree with David French, but I really like his writing. I posted it early on and didn't get much of a response. I left evangelicalism and Baptist churches a long time ago, but a part of me is still there. I very much feel the heartache and outrage he seems to express at the rot in church leadership structures. I now see it as a feature and not a bug, but also an abuse of what could be a beautiful faith.
 

CowboyJD

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#23
How easy it is to confess the wrongs in others and how difficult to confess our own wrong doing. The Bible is clear about this: "All have sinned and come short to the glory of God". That it true for me....
Your attempt at false equivalency is pretty disgusting, IMO.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#24
I can certainly understand the concepts of forgiveness and praying for someone who has sinned, but not sure I could continue attending sermons from a guy who took advantage a young girl in his own church. It may not be my place to cast stones at him as I am not free from sin, but that doesn't mean I have to, or want to, listen to him preach about sin.

I assume the statute of limitations has passed since there is no legal action.
 

andylicious

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#25
I can certainly understand the concepts of forgiveness and praying for someone who has sinned, but not sure I could continue attending sermons from a guy who took advantage a young girl in his own church. It may not be my place to cast stones at him as I am not free from sin, but that doesn't mean I have to, or want to, listen to him preach about sin.

I assume the statute of limitations has passed since there is no legal action.
If she just brought it out the statutes may not apply but they probably do
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#27
It's a good read and I really liked it. I often disagree with David French, but I really like his writing. I posted it early on and didn't get much of a response. I left evangelicalism and Baptist churches a long time ago, but a part of me is still there. I very much feel the heartache and outrage he seems to express at the rot in church leadership structures. I now see it as a feature and not a bug, but also an abuse of what could be a beautiful faith.
Totally agree, not unlike the many of the corrupted Jewish leaders (not all Jew's mind you) of Jesus day, far to many in leadership tend to be arrogant rather than loving and have an increasingly hard time balancing the “truth” with the love. Btw, in the Bible message love always wins over the law and we are all broken…as such, it’s the very height of arrogance and sin to think ourselves otherwise. I’m very glad some in the church are looking for these issues and attempting to purge themselves of sexual predators. If I don’t see my church leadership joining in the hunt that will be very discouraging, just as the past year has been with the influx of politics into a somewhat triggered leadership. Those are signs that we may need to leave…but as a former church of mostly love I’m hoping rather for internal reform and I’m attempting to be an agent of that change personally as well. This struggle between what I think of as “true” believers and “arrogant” disrupters in the pews has been on going since the time of Christ so I don’t expect it to be fixed in my day…but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try very hard to purge it! I applaud them for taking these first steps and I’m hopeful that they follow through and expose and prosecute those who have wrong children and used positions of power to abuse.
 
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Sep 3, 2010
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#28
@gogetumpoke

I wouldn't be surprised if I got a laugh at your sincere thoughts on religion if you shared them. But I have more respect for others than to post a laugh at their beliefs. You know, the kind of respect that most religions teach and followers tend to ignore.
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You got a laugh because I think it's pretty obvious that most people only think about sin in the context of religion. As for my own beliefs I've been a Southern Baptist (and yes, we have some big problems right now) my whole life. Sin is sin and we're all sinners including pastors. What this guy did is horrible and I'm the last guy that will make excuses for him. I do believe that pastors should be held to a higher standard and it doesn't appear that this guy is fully repentant. Honestly, it makes me sick to my stomach. I also believe that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven but all sins are forgivable through Christ. What I think a lot of people miss is that sin is sin is sin and when we start putting grades on sin we muddy the water. Without a relationship with Christ and repentance every sin I commit sends me straight to hell. In other words, my posting snarky remarks on a message board is no less a sin than what this guy did.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#29
You got a laugh because I think it's pretty obvious that most people only think about sin in the context of religion. As for my own beliefs I've been a Southern Baptist (and yes, we have some big problems right now) my whole life. Sin is sin and we're all sinners including pastors. What this guy did is horrible and I'm the last guy that will make excuses for him. I do believe that pastors should be held to a higher standard and it doesn't appear that this guy is fully repentant. Honestly, it makes me sick to my stomach. I also believe that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven but all sins are forgivable through Christ. What I think a lot of people miss is that sin is sin is sin and when we start putting grades on sin we muddy the water. Without a relationship with Christ and repentance every sin I commit sends me straight to hell. In other words, my posting snarky remarks on a message board is no less a sin than what this guy did.
Respectfully, because I know people are much more religious than me and I truly respect those views ...

but
....what the pastor did is more of a sin (ie taking advantage of a young girl) than a sarcastic board post.
 
Sep 3, 2010
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#30
Respectfully, because I know people are much more religious than me and I truly respect those views ...

but
....what the pastor did is more of a sin (ie taking advantage of a young girl) than a sarcastic board post.
I totally see that take but sin is sin. My point is that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven. I have a problem with the attitude "Yeah, I'm a sinner but I'm not as big of a sinner as that dude". In my opinion, it's lazy and keeps people from being fully convicted.
 

andylicious

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#31
You got a laugh because I think it's pretty obvious that most people only think about sin in the context of religion. As for my own beliefs I've been a Southern Baptist (and yes, we have some big problems right now) my whole life. Sin is sin and we're all sinners including pastors. What this guy did is horrible and I'm the last guy that will make excuses for him. I do believe that pastors should be held to a higher standard and it doesn't appear that this guy is fully repentant. Honestly, it makes me sick to my stomach. I also believe that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven but all sins are forgivable through Christ. What I think a lot of people miss is that sin is sin is sin and when we start putting grades on sin we muddy the water. Without a relationship with Christ and repentance every sin I commit sends me straight to hell. In other words, my posting snarky remarks on a message board is no less a sin than what this guy did.
On that fine day when we meet Christ and have the judgement day we don't get the excuse "It was just a little sin, I just insulted Steross on a message board" it's all sin. There's bigger accountability for sin when you lose the fear of God while leading His church in His name. Catholic priest, Baptist pastor, Church of England Vicar it doesn't matter. We just don't what that eternal accountability looks like.

One other thing, if that church just glosses that over and just prays for forgiveness with no action they are just as guilty.
 
May 4, 2011
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#32
Totally agree, not unlike the Jews of Jesus day, far to many in leadership tend to be arrogant rather than loving and have an increasingly hard time balancing the “truth” with the love. Btw, in the Bible message love always wins over the law and we are all broken…as such, it’s the very height of arrogance and sin to think ourselves otherwise. I’m very glad some in the church are looking for these issues and attempting to purge themselves of sexual predators. If I don’t see my church leadership joining in the hunt that will be very discouraging, just as the past year has been with the influx of politics into a somewhat triggered leadership. Those are signs that we may need to leave…but as a former church of mostly love I’m hoping rather for internal reform and I’m attempting to be an agent of that change personally as well. This struggle between what I think of as “true” believers and “arrogant” disrupters has been on going since the time of Christ so I don’t expect it to be fixed in my day…but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try very hard to purge it! I applaud them for taking these first steps and I’m hopeful that they follow through and expose and prosecute those who have wrong children and used positions of power to abuse.
I like most of what you said, but I might suggest a rephrase since Jesus and all of his followers were Jews of his day. Virtually every story he tells is about Jewish people of the day, including that Samaritans were likely Jews from the northern kingdom that fell first, but excluding people like the Roman centurion.

Good on you for being willing to see the faults of our institutions and those who abuse power. It often leaves us feeling isolated and lead many to question their faith, which I still find tragic despite having strong doubts myself.
 

kaboy42

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#33
On that fine day when we meet Christ and have the judgement day we don't get the excuse "It was just a little sin, I just insulted Steross on a message board" it's all sin. There's bigger accountability for sin when you lose the fear of God while leading His church in His name. Catholic priest, Baptist pastor, Church of England Vicar it doesn't matter. We just don't what that eternal accountability looks like.

One other thing, if that church just glosses that over and just prays for forgiveness with no action they are just as guilty.
There is also repentance.

In this case, I wouldn’t consider this “sinner” repentant until he a) absolved himself from ever leading a church again b) apologized to his victim(s) and dedicated the rest of his life to somehow earning her forgiveness c) spent the rest of his life, money and other personal resources on addressing sexual assault and helping victims of these types of assaults.
 

Rack

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#34
I like most of what you said, but I might suggest a rephrase since Jesus and all of his followers were Jews of his day. Virtually every story he tells is about Jewish people of the day, including that Samaritans were likely Jews from the northern kingdom that fell first, but excluding people like the Roman centurion.

Good on you for being willing to see the faults of our institutions and those who abuse power. It often leaves us feeling isolated and lead many to question their faith, which I still find tragic despite having strong doubts myself.
Yes I should have said the more "religious" works based, law only based, corrupt Jewish leaders of the day. You are correct to point out that I should have rephrased that in a more loving way. Could have sounded anti- sematic which I assure you I'm not.
 

Rack

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#35
I totally see that take but sin is sin. My point is that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven. I have a problem with the attitude "Yeah, I'm a sinner but I'm not as big of a sinner as that dude". In my opinion, it's lazy and keeps people from being fully convicted.
I honestly think you are 100% correct on a spiritual level and if we all thought like that there is no way that someone would do something so heinous as sexual predation with a child. On a human level however a sin that scars another human to that level I have to believe has an even greater hotter fire in hell to endure...than someone who has a single bad thought that they don't even carry out. here's a scripture to back that up.

Mark 9:42
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea.

Luke 17:2
It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

The entire 3rd chapter of James also give grave warning to teachers and pastors who mislead and take advantage for their own gain or to cover their own sin.

Pastors and leaders are indeed held in a higher standard. While sin is sin in it's vast separation of all humanity from a loving God...but by his forgiveness...The punishment seems to be even more sever for those who know better and take advantage of their power by abusing others. These are the same as those who crucified the Lord in their arrogance and I have to believe that their punishment is worse.

At the same time, Christ defended the prostitutes' and the adulter against those leaders wrath and power...it's interesting that neither was in a power position when he did that however, they were abuse of power victims. One was about to be stoned to death by the church and the other was cleaning his feet with her hair. However, counter to that argument was someone like tax collector for the occupier army and aggressor nation Rome, Zacchaeus. He had cheated his fellow townsmen and defeated countrymen out of lots of money for the enemy and his own bank account...but Zacchaeus was completely and totally broken by his encounter with Jesus, he paid back all he had taken from others with interest and assessed himself penalty as well, He was totally transformed...until you see that from these leaders forgiveness is far away from them. They need to be stripped from all power and put in prison...then maybe they will achieve the depths of brokenness and selflessness Jesus requires for forgiveness.
 
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UrbanCowboy1

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#36
How easy it is to confess the wrongs in others and how difficult to confess our own wrong doing. The Bible is clear about this: "All have sinned and come short to the glory of God". That it true for me....
I wish there was a puking reaction emoji, because this post deserves it.
 

UrbanCowboy1

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#37
Sin is sin and we're all sinners including pastors. I also believe that it only takes one sin to keep you out of heaven but all sins are forgivable through Christ. What I think a lot of people miss is that sin is sin is sin and when we start putting grades on sin we muddy the water. Without a relationship with Christ and repentance every sin I commit sends me straight to hell. In other words, my posting snarky remarks on a message board is no less a sin than what this guy did.

On that fine day when we meet Christ and have the judgement day we don't get the excuse "It was just a little sin, I just insulted Steross on a message board" it's all sin. There's bigger accountability for sin when you lose the fear of God while leading His church in His name. Catholic priest, Baptist pastor, Church of England Vicar it doesn't matter. We just don't what that eternal accountability looks like.

One other thing, if that church just glosses that over and just prays for forgiveness with no action they are just as guilty.

This reads as insane to me. I don't want to imagine a world that runs its legal systems the same way you claim god views 'sin'. What kind of ethos is that?? It sounds exactly like a totalitarian state. Very 1984 vibes: "I love the leader!"
 

andylicious

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#39
This reads as insane to me. I don't want to imagine a world that runs its legal systems the same way you claim god views 'sin'. What kind of ethos is that??
Lets turn this over to the secular world.

You believe it's ethical that a teacher or administrator that has an affair with a 16 year old student shouldn't be held to a higher standard than someone that doesn't have authority over them?

You believe it ethical that a school board and other teachers that over look the teacher or administrator's affair with a 16 year old and don't report it shouldn't also be held to a higher standard?

It's called pedophilia and is wrong. The preacher is wrong if he groomed a 16 year old for sex. I find it wrong that the church was supporting him and not the lady it happened to. That's just me and how I was brought up.