SCOTUS to overturn Roe v Wade

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Cimarron

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Princeton University

Life Begins at Fertilization

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei(the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in thezygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryoto describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryoto describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
 

OrangeFan69

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The only 100% way for no pregnancy, is to not have sex. If you "choose", see there's that word, to have sex, then you chance getting pregnant. Either use 2 forms of birth control to get close to 0% chance, or accept the responsibility, man and woman, for the life you created.

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K

cool world you have where all sex is consensual.

You may want to google Art Briles tenure at Baylor. Should be a real eye opener.
 

StillwaterTownie

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If this is true and not lip service then you should be very angry at the pro-life side. Because, by FAR the number one thing they have spent time and money doing is trying to make abortion illegal. And, there is pretty conclusive evidence that making abortion illegal is not what makes it "truly very less common" and there is conclusive evidence that it makes it more dangerous. When you look at the places that it is the least common, it is legal. If instead of decades of fight to make it illegal, they would have spent the time and resources doing what makes it the least common, we would all be far better off.

View attachment 95650 View attachment 95652

KELLY: Start with the numbers. Before the Roe versus Wade decision 1973, how many American women got abortions?

HAUGEBERG: Scholars will probably never be able to answer that question with precision precisely because the procedure was illegal. But scholars estimate that between 20% and 25% of all pregnancies ended in abortion before Roe v. Wade.
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/20/725139713/what-abortion-was-like-in-the-u-s-before-roe-v-wade


The 2019 percent of pregnancies that end in abortion was 19.5%. Just think how low that would be if the billions spent on stupid legal battles were instead spent on women?
If politicians who say they are personally pro-life would add that they would like the government help more women be personally pro-life, rather than say they favor banning abortion as much as possible, I think that would go over well. The female politicians can probably better relate to what it means to be personally pro-life. 40% of women who get abortions say they were not financially prepared for the baby.
 
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Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
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K

cool world you have where all sex is consensual.

You may want to google Art Briles tenure at Baylor. Should be a real eye opener.
Do you not understand what the word "choose" means? What he said is correct. He did not say or imply that all sex was consensual as you imply he did. That's part of the problem with issues like this, people take what someone says and then extrapolates it to mean something they didn't say.
 

RxCowboy

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Princeton University

Life Begins at Fertilization

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei(the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in thezygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryoto describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryoto describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
The issues has never been when life begins, it is when personhood begins.
 
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nunya
The issues has never been when life begins, it is when personhood begins.
Confused. So, you both are saying the same thing.
Personhood status of the human zygote, embryo, fetus - PMC (nih.gov)
While the beings at these developmental stages are irrefutably considered human and mammalian life, there is no clear consensus in regard to determining when personhood is established. A human life may be considered a human person at fertilization. On the other hand, others attribute personhood once the physical appearance of a fetus resembles the mature human form at about week 9 of gestation during embryogenesis. Alternatively, a human being may come to be a person when the central nervous system is developed and organs are functioning, or at a point where vital functions, such as breathing and kidney filtration, are established or can be maintained by mechanical equipment at about twenty-six weeks gestation (Moore 1988). Philosophers, bioethicists, and legislators consider aspects of biologic human development such as these in defining and establishing personhood.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
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The issues has never been when life begins, it is when personhood begins.
If you're on the left of the issue perhaps. Those on the right the issue is life not personhood.

The argument has long been about when life begins. A fetus has often been described by the pro-abortion crowd as just a "blob of tissue". A person is a human being which is defined as a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.
 

oks10

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Confused. So, you both are saying the same thing.
Personhood status of the human zygote, embryo, fetus - PMC (nih.gov)
While the beings at these developmental stages are irrefutably considered human and mammalian life, there is no clear consensus in regard to determining when personhood is established. A human life may be considered a human person at fertilization. On the other hand, others attribute personhood once the physical appearance of a fetus resembles the mature human form at about week 9 of gestation during embryogenesis. Alternatively, a human being may come to be a person when the central nervous system is developed and organs are functioning, or at a point where vital functions, such as breathing and kidney filtration, are established or can be maintained by mechanical equipment at about twenty-six weeks gestation (Moore 1988). Philosophers, bioethicists, and legislators consider aspects of biologic human development such as these in defining and establishing personhood.
Why did you bold that part but not the sentence after (underlined)?

Edit: Coolfogg clarified that bolding is from the article itself, not him.
 
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Confused. So, you both are saying the same thing.
Personhood status of the human zygote, embryo, fetus - PMC (nih.gov)
While the beings at these developmental stages are irrefutably considered human and mammalian life, there is no clear consensus in regard to determining when personhood is established. A human life may be considered a human person at fertilization. On the other hand, others attribute personhood once the physical appearance of a fetus resembles the mature human form at about week 9 of gestation during embryogenesis. Alternatively, a human being may come to be a person when the central nervous system is developed and organs are functioning, or at a point where vital functions, such as breathing and kidney filtration, are established or can be maintained by mechanical equipment at about twenty-six weeks gestation (Moore 1988). Philosophers, bioethicists, and legislators consider aspects of biologic human development such as these in defining and establishing personhood.
As a heads up, that's an explicitly Catholic journal on medical ethics. It's also a fairly low impact journal. The first author is also a nutritionist and the second is an explicitly Catholic ethicist. The fact that they define personhood that way should neither be surprising nor taken as representative of any broader view in human development.
 
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nunya
As a heads up, that's an explicitly Catholic journal on medical ethics. It's also a fairly low impact journal. The first author is also a nutritionist and the second is an explicitly Catholic ethicist. The fact that they define personhood that way should neither be surprising nor taken as representative of any broader view in human development.
You as a doctor know more than me. I thought they were part of the NIH.


About the National Library of Medicine
Overview
The National Library of Medicine (NLM), on the campus of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, has been a center of information innovation since its founding in 1836. The world’s largest biomedical library, NLM maintains and makes available a vast print collection and produces electronic information resources on a wide range of topics that are searched billions of times each year by millions of people around the globe. It also supports and conducts research, development, and training in biomedical informatics and health information technology. In addition, the Library coordinates a 6,500-member Network of the National Library of Medicine that promotes and provides access to health information in communities across the United States.

Another curious question. Both doctors that wrote this are Canadian.
 

RxCowboy

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If you're on the left of the issue perhaps. Those on the right the issue is life not personhood.

The argument has long been about when life begins. A fetus has often been described by the pro-abortion crowd as just a "blob of tissue". A person is a human being which is defined as a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.
Persons are protected by the constitution.
 
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You as a doctor know more than me. I thought they were part of the NIH.


About the National Library of Medicine
Overview
The National Library of Medicine (NLM), on the campus of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, has been a center of information innovation since its founding in 1836. The world’s largest biomedical library, NLM maintains and makes available a vast print collection and produces electronic information resources on a wide range of topics that are searched billions of times each year by millions of people around the globe. It also supports and conducts research, development, and training in biomedical informatics and health information technology. In addition, the Library coordinates a 6,500-member Network of the National Library of Medicine that promotes and provides access to health information in communities across the United States.

Another curious question. Both doctors that wrote this are Canadian.
I can see how it seems that way, but no, they are not. All that means is it is in a journal or article that is indexed by NIH, meaning you can use things like the search function in the national library of medicine to find it. It would be like finding a news article on Google and saying Google wrote it.
 

RxCowboy

I'm your huckleberry. That's just my game.
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As a heads up, that's an explicitly Catholic journal on medical ethics. It's also a fairly low impact journal. The first author is also a nutritionist and the second is an explicitly Catholic ethicist. The fact that they define personhood that way should neither be surprising nor taken as representative of any broader view in human development.
Why "explicitly" Catholic ethicist? Why not just Catholic ethicist? And if you read what is actually written they are making a broad point about personhood.