Olympics’ first trans athlete defies science and fairness in quest for gold

  • You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
21,803
15,029
1,743
#81
The central debate is at what point your rights should infringe on the rights of others (if they are in fact rights).

I would argue that safety/privacy is valued more and is therefore going to outweigh anyone being indecent.

It's disturbing that men are going in women's locker rooms and it's being allowed, but if you insist on doing that at least keep your snake in its cage.
That's what this boils down to, whose rights are you more concerned with?

If a person anatomically is a male, but declares themselves to be female, when they go to a Dr., they are treated medically as a male. To treat them as a female would be dangerous. How they prefer to be identified, or how we choose to refer to them is just semantics.

If they were stopping in to pick up a to go order at a restaurant, a restaurant employee might ignore the fact that they are male and refer to them as a female, even though they know that to not be true, just to be nice.

In the video situation, we could ignore the fact that this person in the video is obviously, anatomically, a male and treat them as female. This would be considerate to them, as the spa employees were. By doing so the spa employees are being inconsiderate to the other people in the spa who saw this person as an exhibitionist, not a female. So I would go with the scientific facts and treat this person as a male, because they are male. To play silly semantics games is offensive to the others in the spa. This case is especially tilted in the favor of going with the truth if there are young girls in the spa who shouldn't have to be impacted by the semantics games.

Sometimes it's best to put PC aside and just stick to the facts.
 
Last edited:

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
31,274
32,416
1,743
oklahoma city
#82
If a person anatomically is a male, but declares themselves to be female, when they go to a Dr., they are treated medically as a male. To treat them as a female would be dangerous. How they prefer to be identified, or how we choose to refer to them is just semantics.
Explain to me exactly what I could do that would be dangerous in treating a person as they request to be treated, which is, contrary to your ignorant claim, in all of the medical guidelines?
 

Attachments

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
31,274
32,416
1,743
oklahoma city
#84
Does Caitlyn Jenner still need prostate screening? Does a trans male still need a pap smear?
That would depend on the anatomy present and risk factors for disease which is determined by the treating doctor. Similarly, does a cis-gendered male need a mammogram? No, unless he has a breast mass. At that point, does the treating doctor "treat him medically as a female?" The terminology used in that post is simply not at all how medicine is properly done. We treat people as people. We treat disease and anatomy as it presents. We don't find anatomic or pathologic variations and use those to claim that the person is not their gender. Nor do we call gender "just semantics" because it clearly is not just semantics and that has been proven. That post is simply medical ignorance.
 
Mar 11, 2006
3,910
2,236
1,743
#85
That would depend on the anatomy present .
So you are saying that @Jostate was correct when he said, “If a person anatomically is a male, but declares themselves to be female, when they go to a Dr., they are treated medically as a male.”

Then you said his post was “simply medical ignorance”??
I am certain you are a great doctor and you are well aware that what he stated was correct, but you just didn’t like the tone. I doubt you would ever recommend a hysterectomy for a transgender woman (biological male).

I applaud you for treating people as much as possible in mannerisms that respect them. Good for you. The world needs as many compassionate doctors as possible. And certainly there are myriad tests and procedures that not specific to sex. But biology is biology. Arguing otherwise is just continuing to grasp at straws.
 

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
31,274
32,416
1,743
oklahoma city
#86
So you are saying that @Jostate was correct when he said, “If a person anatomically is a male, but declares themselves to be female, when they go to a Dr., they are treated medically as a male.”

Then you said his post was “simply medical ignorance”??
I think you are a good doctor and you are well aware that what he stated was correct, but you just didn’t like the tone. I doubt you would ever recommend a hysterectomy for a transgender woman (biological male).
I applaud you for treating people as much as possible in mannerisms that respect them. Good for you. The world needs as many compassionate doctors as possible. And certainly there are myriad tests and procedures that not not specific to sex. But biology is biology. Arguing otherwise is just continuing to grasp at straws.
No, in no way did I say that was correct.

No, of course I would not recommend a hysterectomy for a person without a uterus no matter why that person has no uterus. But, that has nothing to do with treating that person by the gender that she has.

And yes, his post is medically ignorant. We do not treat people as male/female based on certain anatomy. As a medical student I was involved in the removal of a testicle from a phenotypic woman. She was treated as a woman before the surgery, during the surgery, and after the surgery because she was a woman even though she had this part of male anatomy at that time. Yes, biology is biology. The attempted misapplication of biology and gender toward my job for political purposes by people that do not understand it doesn't change that fact.
 

andylicious

Territorial Marshal
Nov 16, 2013
5,264
2,561
743
35
tractor
#87
No, in no way did I say that was correct.

No, of course I would not recommend a hysterectomy for a person without a uterus no matter why that person has no uterus. But, that has nothing to do with treating that person by the gender that she has.

And yes, his post is medically ignorant. We do not treat people as male/female based on certain anatomy. As a medical student I was involved in the removal of a testicle from a phenotypic woman. She was treated as a woman before the surgery, during the surgery, and after the surgery because she was a woman even though she had this part of male anatomy at that time. Yes, biology is biology. The attempted misapplication of biology and gender toward my job for political purposes by people that do not understand it doesn't change that fact.
So you are saying a female may or may not have uterus regardless of their hysterectomy status and female pre hysterectomy may have a prostate? The only status they have is the one they designate and medical treatment given based on self-declaration?
 

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
31,274
32,416
1,743
oklahoma city
#88
So you are saying a female may or may not have uterus regardless of their hysterectomy status and female pre hysterectomy may have a prostate? The only status they have is the one they designate and medical treatment given based on self-declaration?
Yes, all of those anatomic differences are possible. Yes, the only gender that they have is the one that they designate, we do not designate a different gender against their wishes. No, their gender is not the only basis for medical treatment given nor is the medical treatment given the basis for gender.

This is explained in the practice guideline attached above and in all of the other similar practice guidelines. There is NO practice guideline stating that if the patient has "A" organ present or "B" number of female/male organs that you designate them a female/male whether they are or are not. That is simply not medical practice at all, it is message board fantasy.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
21,803
15,029
1,743
#89
I can't deal with debating this in 2 places at once but I did once ask my cousin about this issue. He is a committed lefty and gave so much money to the Obama campaign he was invited to some of the inaugural stuff. He also was Chief of Staff at the VA here in OKC.

I don't remember the details but he basically said there are differences in male and female beyond appendages. Things about the blood count and other matters, that you still had to treat a biological male like a male, with considerations to any hormone therapy they had undergone. Essentially like a transperson who is now a female still needs a prostrate exam. I'm not going to debate something with you that you know far more about than I, but you know what I am talking about.
 
Apr 7, 2006
2,835
1,456
1,743
#90
No, in no way did I say that was correct.

No, of course I would not recommend a hysterectomy for a person without a uterus no matter why that person has no uterus. But, that has nothing to do with treating that person by the gender that she has.

And yes, his post is medically ignorant. We do not treat people as male/female based on certain anatomy. As a medical student I was involved in the removal of a testicle from a phenotypic woman. She was treated as a woman before the surgery, during the surgery, and after the surgery because she was a woman even though she had this part of male anatomy at that time. Yes, biology is biology. The attempted misapplication of biology and gender toward my job for political purposes by people that do not understand it doesn't change that fact.
So you're saying that we need to change the messaging to say "testicle owners over 40 need to get annual prostate exams" and "breast owners over 40 need to get annual mammograms"? Otherwise it kinda seems like the medical community is (correctly) associating certain characteristics to genders. Of course you're not performing procedures on people without those organs but that is, of course, an outlandish statement.

We can treat people with decency amd respect without attempting to normalize this.
 
May 4, 2011
2,599
1,282
1,743
Charleston, SC
#91
So you're saying that we need to change the messaging to say "testicle owners over 40 need to get annual prostate exams" and "breast owners over 40 need to get annual mammograms"? Otherwise it kinda seems like the medical community is (correctly) associating certain characteristics to genders. Of course you're not performing procedures on people without those organs but that is, of course, an outlandish statement.

We can treat people with decency amd respect without attempting to normalize this.
You would probably say that people with prostates over 50 should have prostate exams, but not just for the transgender issue. Many people have had them removed. A lot of people struggle with feeling like they're still men after that procedure anyway.
 

cowboyinexile

Have some class
A/V Subscriber
Jun 29, 2004
18,921
10,961
1,743
41
Fairmont, MN
#93
We can treat people with decency amd respect without attempting to normalize this.
Maybe accepting that it needs to be normalized will lead us to having an honest conversation about it.

I don't understand it. I'm a straight guy who has no idea what it would be like to be attracted to other men. So I really have no idea how to understand someone who is so uncomfortable in their own skin that they feel the need to change their gender or identity as non binary. But they are human beings with real issues and they deserve compassion.

If we are talking about predators who take advantage of bathroom laws, I don't think there is any disagreement about prosecuting them to the fullest extent of the law. But when it extends to a group of people who are openly mocked and just want a little privacy in a place they feel comfortable, maybe we should have a little compassion there. They are dealing with something you and I can't comprehend.

If you want to treat people with decency and respect, let them be and don't make jokes about them behind their back (not directed at you, just a general comment). I'm really uncomfortable with letting children who are confused about their gender make adult decisions but if they are in their 20's or older just let them be.

30 years ago people said the same thing you did about gay people. Its pretty normalized now and life for everyone else is just fine. This is no different.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
21,803
15,029
1,743
#94
This is where I see a disconnect between myself and others on here. When I took the side of a well intentioned, but dated, cartoon character that introduced kids to traditional Chinese things the conversation quickly turned to the violence against Asian people making the news.

When I mocked a grown man exposing himself in front of women in a spa, the conversation turned to youth suicide for homophobic bashing.

The point some are presumably trying to make, if we stand against the small perceived injustices like the cartoon character or the discrimination of a transgendered man in the women's spa, we are pushing back against the wave of hate that eventually gets to the innocent kids or Asian people. Maybe I should give that more credence. I do see that point but I just think the connection between the two is too far to be significant. In the mean time (my) reality is women (maybe young girls) are forced to share a spa with a naked man and harmless kid's books are pulled off the shelves.

I mean it when I say I don't fully understand the domino effect my post caused but I've done it a couple of times and will be more cautious in the future. I apologize to those who I offended.
 
Mar 11, 2006
3,910
2,236
1,743
#95
This is where I see a disconnect between myself and others on here. When I took the side of a well intentioned, but dated, cartoon character that introduced kids to traditional Chinese things the conversation quickly turned to the violence against Asian people making the news.

When I mocked a grown man exposing himself in front of women in a spa, the conversation turned to youth suicide for homophobic bashing.

The point some are presumably trying to make, if we stand against the small perceived injustices like the cartoon character or the discrimination of a transgendered man in the women's spa, we are pushing back against the wave of hate that eventually gets to the innocent kids or Asian people. Maybe I should give that more credence. I do see that point but I just think the connection between the two is too far to be significant. In the mean time (my) reality is women (maybe young girls) are forced to share a spa with a naked man and harmless kid's books are pulled off the shelves.

I mean it when I say I don't fully understand the domino effect my post caused but I've done it a couple of times and will be more cautious in the future. I apologize to those who I offended.
I think you are being very reasonable, but just probably being more direct in a half-duplex conversation like this that does not allow for easy dialogue.

Personally, I have a niece (transgender female) and my assistant at work has a son (transgender male) that both announced and started transitioning at roughly the same time 7 years ago right after they both graduated HS. Luckily for both of them their parents were incredibly supportive.
Whenever I see them, which is fairly often, I always make it a point to call them by their new chosen names (both elected to change their first name). I think, hope, that I treat them the same as my other nieces and nephews and other co-worker children.

They deserve that respectful treatment. That said, in the interest of fairness…it is absolutely fair to NOT permit a transgender female in a female competitive sport. And to your point about a spa, I don’t believe it is discrimination if the spa owner did not allow a transgender female into a private area of a spa. I believe individuals can hold both of those POV and still be very supportive of transgender people.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
21,803
15,029
1,743
#97
Not sure whether she "needs" it or not, I'm sure she'd appreciate your efforts on her behalf. :)
Blake Griffin did crack me up with this line while roasting Caitlyn Jenner:

"On behalf of the entire NBA and half of the rappers on the Billboard charts, I want to thank you for giving your daughters their daddy issues!"
 

wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
11,371
4,365
1,743
#99
Does Caitlyn Jenner still need prostate screening? Does a trans male still need a pap smear?
All kinds of cancer screenings are dependent upon anatomy. There's also x-ray procedures depending on anatomy.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
11,371
4,365
1,743
That would depend on the anatomy present .
So you are saying that @Jostate was correct when he said, “If a person anatomically is a male, but declares themselves to be female, when they go to a Dr., they are treated medically as a male.”

Then you said his post was “simply medical ignorance”??
I am certain you are a great doctor and you are well aware that what he stated was correct, but you just didn’t like the tone. I doubt you would ever recommend a hysterectomy for a transgender woman (biological male).

I applaud you for treating people as much as possible in mannerisms that respect them. Good for you. The world needs as many compassionate doctors as possible. And certainly there are myriad tests and procedures that not specific to sex. But biology is biology. Arguing otherwise is just continuing to grasp at straws.
How about this. I know a trans female. Went through surgery both upper and lower. And then a couple of months later put out on Facebook "going in for my first mammogram". And then it was some slogan that is used to encourage women to go get breast cancer screenings.

What doctor encourages this or allows it? And before you ask, no there was no lump. This person just wanted to be treated like a female medically as well, and was cheered by others for it.
I know there are those that don't believe this, but I do believe there's quite a bit of delusion that goes into these things. This person literally said that if they were younger and had gone through this surgery, they would have been going for pap smears instead.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.