Olympics’ first trans athlete defies science and fairness in quest for gold

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SLVRBK

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So lowering it for those events, means that they will still have a testosterone level about three times as high as a normal female athlete.
And as for those three medalists, if they're actual women and something happens that means they can't compete then so be it. It's no different than having a medical issue as a football player and it means you can't compete. Sometimes that happens as an athlete.

Unless I am misunderstanding your statement. Are you saying that the level for an elite athlete that is female is higher than the 1.75 and is set to 5, or are you saying the level for a TG woman is lower than 10 and set to 5?



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Only saying that IAAF changed to acceptable level for women to affect 3 particular middle sprint distances. Short distance, long distance, hurdles, etc remained unchanged…strange to change a rule to affect only 3 races and leave higher test levels for all others.
 

wrenhal

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So lowering it for those events, means that they will still have a testosterone level about three times as high as a normal female athlete.
And as for those three medalists, if they're actual women and something happens that means they can't compete then so be it. It's no different than having a medical issue as a football player and it means you can't compete. Sometimes that happens as an athlete.

Unless I am misunderstanding your statement. Are you saying that the level for an elite athlete that is female is higher than the 1.75 and is set to 5, or are you saying the level for a TG woman is lower than 10 and set to 5?



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Only saying that IAAF changed to acceptable level for women to affect 3 particular middle sprint distances. Short distance, long distance, hurdles, etc remained unchanged…strange to change a rule to affect only 3 races and leave higher test levels for all others.
So they raised the limit for women to 5 and the tg is still at 10? If that's the case, I guess they are trying to level the field done. Still won't make up for the other intangibles that make guys different.

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SLVRBK

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OSUCowboy787

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It's just insane. Even the governing body admits that 5 is WELL beyond even higher ranges for women and allowing trans people to have 10 is flat out cheating.


"That is still far above levels in most women, including elite female athletes, whose levels range from 0.12 to 1.79 nanomoles per liter, states a 22-page IAAF document defending the organization's decision. Meanwhile, the normal male range after puberty is much higher, from 7.7 to 29.4 nanomoles."
 

Jostate

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Apparently the the slippery slope has now progressed to a man exposing himself in front of women, including some young girls, at a spa. It gives me something to laugh about over my morning coffee, but if one of my nieces were at the spa it might not be so funny. The woman on this video isn't quite on board with people being able to declare themselves whatever gender they want.

"What sexual orientation, I see a dick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs
 

steross

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Apparently the the slippery slope has now progressed to a man exposing himself in front of women, including some young girls, at a spa. It gives me something to laugh about over my morning coffee, but if one of my nieces were at the spa it might not be so funny. The woman on this video isn't quite on board with people being able to declare themselves whatever gender they want.

"What sexual orientation, I see a dick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs
I'll sit here and wait for all the typical pro-business posters to explain to the woman that she doesn't have "a right" to dictate what happens in the private business just like they have done with the people demanding gay wedding cakes.

And, like every other subject where the desires of one group collide with the desires of another, the reasonable and rational people will work it out. And that would happen much quicker and more peacefully if those that are divisive and seek out stuff like this to display and fight about to fan the fires of hate would shut up.
https://ktla.com/news/violence-breaks-out-at-trans-rights-protest-at-koreatown-spa/
 

Jostate

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I'll sit here and wait for all the typical pro-business posters to explain to the woman that she doesn't have "a right" to dictate what happens in the private business just like they have done with the people demanding gay wedding cakes.
I suppose that business has the right to do as they wish in allowing the man to walk around with his junk hanging out.

The problem is, they presented themselves as a spa that had separate facilities for men and women when these people, like the one on the video, signed up. I don't know how this spa works, but she may have a membership that isn't so easy to get her money back.

The bakery example might work better if a bunch of people had signed up for cake of the month club and were stuck paying for the next 12 months. Even then it's a bad example because they could slip in and out of the bakery without seeing what others were getting, unless the display cases had cakes adorned with dildos, which is a possibility these days, especially on the left coast.

I'll agree though, clashing protestors rarely find a solution.
 
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steross

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I suppose that business has the right to do as they wish in allowing the man to walk around with his junk hanging out.

The problem is, they presented themselves as a spa that had separate facilities for men and women when these people, like the one on the video, signed up. I don't know how this spa works, but she may have a membership that isn't so easy to get her money back.

The bakery example might work better if a bunch of people had signed up for cake of the month club and were stuck paying for the next 12 months. Even then it's a bad example because they could slip in and out of the bakery without seeing what others were getting, unless the display cases had cakes adorned with dildos, which is a possibility these days, especially on the left coast.
I highly doubt that given this controversy the spa is going to keep 12 months worth of payment from someone that is upset. If that is more than a fantasy in your head, show us.

The bakery example works perfectly. They put themselves out as a bakery for wedding cakes. People wanted wedding cakes, the bakery then told them no only this type cake and they people felt it was their right to get one. This person thought it was a spa only for cis women and the spa told them no, it is trans also and she felt it was her right to stop that. Both situations were the customer telling the business how they will operate based on their assumption. It is simply very similar without creating crazy false postulates to make them different like your opinion requires.

It is fascinating watching the convoluted ways that your mind tries to make your opinion of complex situations the "right" side when they are just complex issues.
 

Jostate

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I highly doubt that given this controversy the spa is going to keep 12 months worth of payment from someone that is upset. If that is more than a fantasy in your head, show us.

The bakery example works perfectly. They put themselves out as a bakery for wedding cakes. People wanted wedding cakes, the bakery then told them no and they people felt it was their right to get one. This person thought it was a spa only for cis women and the spa told them no, it is trans also and she felt it was her right to stop that. Both situations were the customer telling the business how they will operate based on their assumption. It is simply very similar without creating crazy false postulates to make them different like your opinion requires.
Every spa, or gym, I've every been a member of was pretty sticky about letting people out of contracts.

Yes this person thought that "women" didn't mean a man who tucked his penis between his legs and filled a bra with packing peanuts. Apparently she hasn't caught up with the times. That's the part that cracked me up is the "I see a dick" part. This poor woman is still stuck in a time when having a dick meant you weren't a female. How unevolved.
 

steross

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Every spa, or gym, I've every been a member of was pretty sticky about letting people out of contracts.

Yes this person thought that "women" didn't mean a man who tucked his penis between his legs and filled a bra with packing peanuts. Apparently she hasn't caught up with the times. That's the part that cracked me up is the "I see a dick" part. This poor woman is still stuck in a time when having a dick meant you weren't a female. How unevolved.
Well, if only she "unevolved" and could go back in time when things were much more strictly segregated and see if she was happier.

Again, this is a violence-provoking controversy for those that want to hate on someone else. The simple solution now that it is a controversy is for the spa to determine by their business model which group they are going to make unhappy then refund the money of the unhappy customers. There is no other way forward. All of these attitudes of condescension, hate, and making fun of fellow humans as if they must be in the wrong and you must be in the right like you display simply make things worse. And, skip the claim that you don't hate. Every post on this subject starts with something like "I just laugh about this thing that doesn't matter to me." It doesn't matter to you yet you bring it up over and over again. Then after the "haha, I don't care excuse" the meat of your posts always become ugly and insulting to others. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Claiming not to hate while showing hate (in the perception of who you are talking about) is called hate.
 
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Jostate

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I'm going to derail my own rabbit hole a bit if I may, the point you made about the clashing protestors was spot on. It made me think of the guy they call the "klan whisperer". I love this guy.

When some hate group or extremist group starts making noise, the natural reaction is to respond with anger. Which is totally understandable. This Black guy became famous because he didn't respond with anger. When the klan was protesting instead of yelling back and calling names, he calmly walked over and started talking to them. He tried to understand where their anger came from, and help them see his perspective. As a result hundreds of members quit the klan and some became friends with him.

I think it's a pretty powerful story.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
 

Jostate

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Well, if only she "unevolved" and could go back in time when things were much more strictly segregated and see if she was happier.

Again, this is a violence-provoking controversy for those that want to hate on someone else. The simple solution now that it is a controversy is for the spa to determine by their business model which group they are going to make unhappy then refund the money of the unhappy customers. There is no other way forward. All of these attitudes of condescension, hate, and making fun of fellow humans as if they must be in the wrong and you must be in the right like you display simply make things worse. And, skip the claim that you don't hate. Every post on this subject starts with something like "I just laugh about this thing that doesn't matter to me." It doesn't matter to you yet you bring it up over and over again. Then after "haha, I don't care excuse" the meat of your posts always become ugly and insulting to others. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Claiming not to hate while showing hate (in the perception of who you are talking about) is called hate.
Some things in this changing world are funny to me. I mock those things. A man waking up one day and proclaiming himself to be a woman is funny. People taking him seriously is funnier. This woman responding with the simplified, and accurate, "I see a dick" is funny. I honestly don't see how others don't find that funny.

Yes the business can make it clear they allow the members to define their own gender thus allowing pretty much anyone to choose their spa, let the market decide. If they let everyone out of their contracts, as you suggest, I support their position. I still might laugh about it when it creates videos like this, but that's their right.
 

steross

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I'm going to derail my own rabbit hole a bit if I may, the point you made about the clashing protestors was spot on. It made me think of the guy they call the "klan whisperer". I love this guy.

When some hate group or extremist group starts making noise, the natural reaction is to respond with anger. Which is totally understandable. This Black guy became famous because he didn't respond with anger. When the klan was protesting instead of yelling back and calling names, he calmly walked over and started talking to them. He tried to understand where their anger came from, and help them see his perspective. As a result hundreds of members quit the klan and some became friends with him.

I think it's a pretty powerful story.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

Waiting for the day that the story that you find pretty powerful actually sinks in and affects your behavior. Your posts and clashing protestors are cut from the same cloth, IMHO. Do you think this guy you love who talks to the klan instead of accepting their hate-filled words would love YOUR words?
man exposing himself in front of women, including some young girls, at a spa.
in allowing the man to walk around with his junk hanging out.
Yes this person thought that "women" didn't mean a man who tucked his penis between his legs and filled a bra with packing peanuts. Apparently she hasn't caught up with the times. This poor woman is still stuck in a time when having a dick meant you weren't a female. How unevolved.
 

steross

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Some things in this changing world are funny to me. I mock those things. A man waking up one day and proclaiming himself to be a woman is funny. People taking him seriously is funnier. This woman responding with the simplified, and accurate, "I see a dick" is funny. I honestly don't see how others don't find that funny.

Yes the business can make it clear they allow the members to define their own gender thus allowing pretty much anyone to choose their spa, let the market decide. If they let everyone out of their contracts, as you suggest, I support their position. I still might laugh about it when it creates videos like this, but that's their right.
BS. You aren't mocking the issues that come up with change. You are mocking the people and only the people on one side of the issue. There is a huge difference between the two. That is the lamest of lame excuses for what you write.

If someone was making fun of the civil rights movement of the 1960s by constantly pointing fingers only at the black people protesting but never the white counter-protests would you feel that person was just "mocking the things of a changing world?" Sure, bud, sure.
 

Jostate

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BS. You aren't mocking the issues that come up with change. You are mocking the people and only the people on one side of the issue. There is a huge difference between the two. That is the lamest of lame excuses for what you write.

If someone was making fun of the civil rights movement of the 1960s by constantly pointing fingers only at the black people protesting but never the white counter-protests would you feel that person was just "mocking the things of a changing world?" Sure, bud, sure.
Maybe you're right. Maybe this guy is the Rosa Parks of the trans movement. Although his name would have to be a little more colorful like "Lady Rosa Parks and Recreation".

Or maybe it's just a creepy guy who has found he can expose himself to young women and be called a hero.
 
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This issue certainly spotlights those that must not have daughters…or at least daughters that play competitive sports.
 

andylicious

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This issue certainly spotlights those that must not have daughters…or at least daughters that play competitive sports.
Now, Now someone has to pay for us to become enlightened and full of love. It's just plain hateful to not allow a functioning man the right to go into an all female sauna.
 
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The central debate is at what point your rights should infringe on the rights of others (if they are in fact rights).

I would argue that safety/privacy is valued more and is therefore going to outweigh anyone being indecent.

It's disturbing that men are going in women's locker rooms and it's being allowed, but if you insist on doing that at least keep your snake in its cage.
 

andylicious

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The central debate is at what point your rights should infringe on the rights of others (if they are in fact rights).

I would argue that safety/privacy is valued more and is therefore going to outweigh anyone being indecent.

It's disturbing that men are going in women's locker rooms and it's being allowed, but if you insist on doing that at least keep your snake in its cage.
If one identifies as female should there be said snake?
 
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