Olympics’ first trans athlete defies science and fairness in quest for gold

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steross

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#21
So this person is really just what used to be called a transvestite. They want to dress as a female but don't want to go through with the surgeries.

"So it’s crazy! I’m the crazy one, to be the weakest female, the weakest link in the chain, to be competing against the top ones. I should be fingered as the stupid one, for wanting to do that in the first place," she added."

Huh? The weakest female? You won a championship as a female....

As for your question about the science, anytime I question it, I'm pointed to articles about the .00001%(or whatever it is) that are born hermaphrodite. They say it's proof of many things, that there are more than 2 genders, that people can feel like they are in the wrong body, etc... And the other person acts like they just dropped the mic and won't talk further. Like about the fact that hermaphrodites are a genetic anomaly that usually have other traits at birth that make it easy to assign a correct gender and most of them grow up to have normal lives as that gender. Or that these people are not coming out saying they were born hermaphrodite and were given the wrong gender. Especially when they won't even go through with the surgery to finish off their transition.

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An excellent "well I think" in response when he specifically pointed out that wasn't what he was interested in. Despite having the same opinion, your take and his are incredibly different. His is, basically, "this is my opinion based on the evidence I have right now but I am willing to see other evidence." Your take, basically, is "I have an opinion so I am going to say things that demean people who have different opinions because I know I am right and will search for things that show it." The spite comes through loud and clear in your verbiage.

This is a complex subject and we do not know all that there is to know. Certainly in the past things have been falsely deemed mental health issues that were not with more evidence and changed social mores (Hysteria, drapetomania). I'm not the expert to make that call for this subject and haven't researched all the evidence. To my understanding, the mismatch of biological sex and gender identity (transgenderism) isn't considered a mental health condition currently. Gender dysphoria, the psychological issues that result from this issue is considered a mental condition. What I wonder, but do not know, is how much of that distress is caused by society and how much of it is internal in the person. It would seem the fairly recent increased societal acceptance of homosexuality could give us a clue in looking at current vs past rates of MH issues in homosexuals.

And, your demeaning people "not even going through the transition" is about as logical as saying that people that don't become a monk or a priest aren't really religious. These are individual decisions not a you-are-or-you-aren't type decision as your take on this attempts to paint.
 

wrenhal

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#23
So this person is really just what used to be called a transvestite. They want to dress as a female but don't want to go through with the surgeries.

"So it’s crazy! I’m the crazy one, to be the weakest female, the weakest link in the chain, to be competing against the top ones. I should be fingered as the stupid one, for wanting to do that in the first place," she added."

Huh? The weakest female? You won a championship as a female....

As for your question about the science, anytime I question it, I'm pointed to articles about the .00001%(or whatever it is) that are born hermaphrodite. They say it's proof of many things, that there are more than 2 genders, that people can feel like they are in the wrong body, etc... And the other person acts like they just dropped the mic and won't talk further. Like about the fact that hermaphrodites are a genetic anomaly that usually have other traits at birth that make it easy to assign a correct gender and most of them grow up to have normal lives as that gender. Or that these people are not coming out saying they were born hermaphrodite and were given the wrong gender. Especially when they won't even go through with the surgery to finish off their transition.

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An excellent "well I think" in response when he specifically pointed out that wasn't what he was interested in. Despite having the same opinion, your take and his are incredibly different. His is, basically, "this is my opinion based on the evidence I have right now but I am willing to see other evidence." Your take, basically, is "I have an opinion so I am going to say things that demean people who have different opinions because I know I am right and will search for things that show it." The spite comes through loud and clear in your verbiage.

This is a complex subject and we do not know all that there is to know. Certainly in the past things have been falsely deemed mental health issues that were not with more evidence and changed social mores (Hysteria, drapetomania). I'm not the expert to make that call for this subject and haven't researched all the evidence. To my understanding, the mismatch of biological sex and gender identity (transgenderism) isn't considered a mental health condition currently. Gender dysphoria, the psychological issues that result from this issue is considered a mental condition. What I wonder, but do not know, is how much of that distress is caused by society and how much of it is internal in the person. It would seem the fairly recent increased societal acceptance of homosexuality could give us a clue in looking at current vs past rates of MH issues in homosexuals.

And, your demeaning people "not even going through the transition" is about as logical as saying that people that don't become a monk or a priest aren't really religious. These are individual decisions not a you-are-or-you-aren't type decision as your take on this attempts to paint.
No spite. People will not discuss the issue because they "drop the mic" with the hermaphrodite stuff and leave it at that. They think that stops all debate and discussion and will only yell transphobe after that.

And I'm sorry, but the guy claims to be a weak female competing with the top females in the world but he still has his junk and had already won gold medals in the sport as a woman. That's not brave in any sense.

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steross

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#24
No spite. People will not discuss the issue because they "drop the mic" with the hermaphrodite stuff and leave it at that. They think that stupid all debate and discussion and will only yell transphobe after that.

And I'm sorry, but the guy claims to be a weak female competing with the top females in the world but he still has his junk and had already won gold medals in the sport as a woman. That's not brave in any sense.

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Of course, again with the strawman "people" and "they." Maybe you can show the discussion that was only limited to hermaphrodites and the "they" who were refusing to take the discussion further. Otherwise, yawn.

Umm, some basic anatomy and physiology, it isn't the "junk" part that gives athletic prowess. It is muscle mass, bone structure and hormones. At the time of that competition, SHE had completed the process by the current rules. Apparently, for the current competition, she has not and she accepted that. The issue is not the athlete following the rules. The issue is the rules that do not completely cover the physiologic differences that have been placed. It is similar to not blaming the rich person who takes a tax break when it is the government that created it.

And, specifically calling a person that clearly wants to be addressed as she, and was introduced in the article you read as she, a he, is just being a jerk. Claiming "no spite" then doing that is making yourself a liar since that is obviously spiteful. IMHO, there are some people that would be best addressed as knuckle-dragging bigot, but I call them by their name or he instead.
 

andylicious

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#25
It doesn't matter if whatever it is has been taking female hormone the net effects from earlier in life will not be undone, easily. There will always be a strength differential.
 

wrenhal

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#26
No spite. People will not discuss the issue because they "drop the mic" with the hermaphrodite stuff and leave it at that. They think that stupid all debate and discussion and will only yell transphobe after that.

And I'm sorry, but the guy claims to be a weak female competing with the top females in the world but he still has his junk and had already won gold medals in the sport as a woman. That's not brave in any sense.

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Of course, again with the strawman "people" and "they." Maybe you can show the discussion that was only limited to hermaphrodites and the "they" who were refusing to take the discussion further. Otherwise, yawn.

Umm, some basic anatomy and physiology, it isn't the "junk" part that gives athletic prowess. It is muscle mass, bone structure and hormones. At the time of that competition, SHE had completed the process by the current rules. Apparently, for the current competition, she has not and she accepted that. The issue is not the athlete following the rules. The issue is the rules that do not completely cover the physiologic differences that have been placed. It is similar to not blaming the rich person who takes a tax break when it is the government that created it.

And, specifically calling a person that clearly wants to be addressed as she, and was introduced in the article you read as she, a he, is just being a jerk. Claiming "no spite" then doing that is making yourself a liar since that is obviously spiteful. IMHO, there are some people that would be best addressed as knuckle-dragging bigot, but I call them by their name or he instead.
My personal discussions with others, either in person, or on Facebook, don't have to be shown to you. If you don't believe me, then so be it.
I can call him whatever I like. He is a biological male. I am not talking directly to the person and I have no obligation to contribute to their delusion.

As for the outdated requirements. They aren't outdated, people born as a male should not be competing in women's sports.

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andylicious

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#27
Of course, again with the strawman "people" and "they." Maybe you can show the discussion that was only limited to hermaphrodites and the "they" who were refusing to take the discussion further. Otherwise, yawn.

Umm, some basic anatomy and physiology, it isn't the "junk" part that gives athletic prowess. It is muscle mass, bone structure and hormones. At the time of that competition, SHE had completed the process by the current rules. Apparently, for the current competition, she has not and she accepted that. The issue is not the athlete following the rules. The issue is the rules that do not completely cover the physiologic differences that have been placed. It is similar to not blaming the rich person who takes a tax break when it is the government that created it.

And, specifically calling a person that clearly wants to be addressed as she, and was introduced in the article you read as she, a he, is just being a jerk. Claiming "no spite" then doing that is making yourself a liar since that is obviously spiteful. IMHO, there are some people that would be best addressed as knuckle-dragging bigot, but I call them by their name or he instead.
Why is one a "knuckle dragging idiot" if one chooses to use a personal pronoun predicated on a person's original biological sex rather than an artificiallying created sexual identity that retains the original testicular structure?
 
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#28
Why is one a "knuckle dragging idiot" if one chooses to use a personal pronoun predicated on a person's original biological sex rather than an artificiallying created sexual identity that retains the original testicular structure?
Although I wouldn’t say knuckle-dragging bigot, I am with @steross on this issue. You should call and refer to people by the name that they prefer. Just general consideration.
 

steross

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#29
Although I wouldn’t say knuckle-dragging bigot, I am with @steross on this issue. You should call and refer to people by the name that they prefer. Just general consideration.
That was my point, even if I feel that way about someone, I’m not going to call some that just because we disagree in conversation. It is just being decent.
 

steross

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#31
So if I identify myself as a Prince of England you will call me "Your Highness" out of politeness?
Well, you have identified as not knowing much about what that word means in this context.

See, identify in this context is either "establish" as in the first defiinition or "strong links" like in the second definition below. So, sure, if you identified as a prince by flying around with the other royals and doing charity work, playing polo, or raping teens with your billionaire friends who have you around as a prince then sure, you have identified as a prince and it isn't my place to state otherwise. If you were just some local fool "identifying" as a prince by saying "I'm a prince" because of ignorance and bigotry, no.

Captura de Pantalla 2021-06-26 a la(s) 9.56.13 p. m..png
 

andylicious

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#32
Well, you have identified as not knowing much about what that word means in this context.

See, identify in this context is either "establish" as in the first defiinition or "strong links" like in the second definition below. So, sure, if you identified as a prince by flying around with the other royals and doing charity work, playing polo, or raping teens with your billionaire friends who have you around as a prince then sure, you have identified as a prince and it isn't my place to state otherwise. If you were just some local fool "identifying" as a prince by saying "I'm a prince" because of ignorance and bigotry, no.

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So if one believes a male to be a "fool" for claiming to be a female, but keeps his males testes one would be correct in calling the male him and not her? Wearing girls clothes and makeup is analogous to the local person you mentioned. Lose the testes and you are serious about the female thing.

Politeness in this case takes a whole different meaning. I don't give a rip if someone wants to dress as another sex, make up stories about their sexuality, but leave me out of it. I don't want to know your business
 
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#33
We're grossly overcomplicating a simple problem (although the larger discussion may in fact have some complexity).

If you're born with 1 genitalia and that's a male's then you're a biological male and have no business competing against biological females.

Want to dress up on the weekends? Change your name? Undergo hormone treatment, etc? Fine- that's all your choice and has no impact on others. Being allowed to compete in women's sports is a line that should never be crossed and demonstrates how willing some in this country are to abandon any boundaries to pander to a few.
 
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#34
My right to punch you in the face ends at the end of your nose. Going through puberty as a male gives you a huge advantage in lifting/running/fighting and most other sports, regardless of your current testosterone levels. Unfair advantages hurt the other competitors, the trans lifters rights do not outweigh the rights of the other competitors to have a fair competition.
 

Jostate

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#35
There is some character at my wife's work who had declared their pronouns to be they and them. The problem is an entire life of conditioning makes it easy for, even well intentioned, people to make mistakes. "They" have HR on speed dial and everyone is walking on egg shells. My wife is a tremendous worrier so I just told her to avoid them, but she picked this character for a task force not knowing what she was getting. Even if my wife doesn't make a mistake, she is forced to address those that do, so this is now her problem.

Every time someone messes up "they" make a complaint then go home early because they are so distressed about the hostile work environment. It seems to happen about once a week, so my wife ends up spending the whole weekend worrying.

If we use the old adage about smokers that your rights end at my nose. Well I think this character's rights end at everyone else's ability to do their job without constant distractions. In this case "they" are really a tremendous bully and have found a way to control everyone around them.
 

Jostate

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#36
We're grossly overcomplicating a simple problem (although the larger discussion may in fact have some complexity).

If you're born with 1 genitalia and that's a male's then you're a biological male and have no business competing against biological females.

Want to dress up on the weekends? Change your name? Undergo hormone treatment, etc? Fine- that's all your choice and has no impact on others. Being allowed to compete in women's sports is a line that should never be crossed and demonstrates how willing some in this country are to abandon any boundaries to pander to a few.
I saw Kaitlyn Jenner talking about this issue. Zhe? was saying this is really not as new to the Olympic committee as it is to the rest of us. Those of us old enough to remember the east German women who clearly had done more than just pick up heavy weights in preparation for the games shouldn't be surprised. Apparently, even beyond that, countries have been testing the boundaries for decades.

If only this genius could be used for good instead of creepiness.
 

Donnyboy

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#37
I have a question some of you that follow this more closely may know.

One of the ways they check female athletes for doping with hormones is testosterone level……do male born trans athletes take enough hormones as part of transitioning that the testosterone is lowered to normal levels (not discounting the undeniable physical advantage of going through puberty a make) or do they have higher than typical levels at all times? If so will they have to remove that metric allowing cis females to dope with hormones?
 

OSUCowboy787

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#38
I have a question some of you that follow this more closely may know.

One of the ways they check female athletes for doping with hormones is testosterone level……do male born trans athletes take enough hormones as part of transitioning that the testosterone is lowered to normal levels (not discounting the undeniable physical advantage of going through puberty a make) or do they have higher than typical levels at all times? If so will they have to remove that metric allowing cis females to dope with hormones?
I believe they have to have lowered levels from a standard male however I think the levels are something like 10x as much as a normal female.
 

Donnyboy

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#39
I believe they have to have lowered levels from a standard male however I think the levels are something like 10x as much as a normal female.
That’s my question….. if they are higher than cis females doesn’t the sport at a minimum have to allow cis athletes to take testosterone to those levels. And if it’s and advantage isn’t that the standard we should use? Regardless your gender identity you must fall in this range?
 

OSUCowboy787

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#40
That’s my question….. if they are higher than cis females doesn’t the sport at a minimum have to allow cis athletes to take testosterone to those levels. And if it’s and advantage isn’t that the standard we should use? Regardless your gender identity you must fall in this range?
I would think the requirement should be they not be above normal or average female levels and honestly it should be below considering the years of benefits of having much higher levels. In the end they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the normal Olympics. If they want to create a Trans olympics or something then thats fine but it only hurts women to allow biological men to participate in their sporting events.
 
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