Official Game Thread: Tulsa vs. Oklahoma State

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andylicious

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Its both; lack of scheme AND deathly risk averse, which would suck as a player. It gives zero confidence, zero killer instinct, and simply isn't fun. And its not so much about "big plays". It's about being creative and opportunistic. Gundy has created a system that is the antithesis of both, and I can imagine it sucks playing for a coach like that.

Gundy said a few things that clue us into the issues during the Our Time documentary.

In a coaches meeting, he kept telling them over and over again, "There's safety in simplicity." Early in one of the first games (maybe game 1?), they show the interaction between him and Dunn after a play went poorly, and Gundy got on to him saying "Run the ball, and throw it sideways!" to which Dunn replied, "Yes, sir."

Those two interactions gave us insight into how Gundy operates. He wants a safe, simple approach, and he dictates what our offense does. Dunn is also a yes man. How many times has he told people that we only run 4-5 plays at Oklahoma State, and have for years? He isn't joking.

At this point, I just think he's really stubborn, not super smart, and tried to cherry pick a few random philosophies from past OC's, and applied them in a piecemeal way without the personnel to even do what he's wanting to do. Ultimately, I think he really wants a balanced, but run-frist offense. Problem is, he seems to to believe that his philosophies are applicable to every opponent and are not related to our own personnel or game situation. There's no nuance, no gameflow, and absolutely no deviating from his beliefs.

He also refuses to do anything but run or horizontal pass to setup everything else, so you see the constant slamming into stacked boxes and WR screens early in the game. He thinks that every game can be won by "bringing the safeties down into the box, then throwing over the top" (as he says in Our Time). He literally thinks it's that simple. In fact, he will do it until the safeties come down into the box, so until they do, be prepared for lots of runs up the middle and sideways passes, because he thinks if you just do enough of them, eventually the safeties will come down and we can hit one over the top. Nevermind the 5 wasted possessions it took to make that happen. It actually could be that simple if we had tOSU or Bama's O-line, but we don't. So it isn't that simple. Holgorsen understood the personnel limitations, and leveraged scheme over talent to get the most out of the available personnel.

Daxx Garman, Mason Rudolph, or Spencer Sanders.... only difference is when our primary WR is absolutely elite, and can go get those lobs down the field, and everyone thinks we're suddenly good. Hint; we never were, especially not from a scheme perspective. Even with NFL talent at QB, WR, TE, OL, and RB, we still couldn't win our conference.

Not sure if you watched "Our Time", but I found it very fascinating. I actually got bored with it after a while, because Gundy sounded like he was on autopilot or repeat for the entire thing. Every time he addressed the team, it was the same coachspeak "get after their ass" stuff, and it just looked flat, boring, and really stale. I saw no confidence in the faces of our players. Looked like they were sitting in a European History lecture, not about to run into BPS in front of 50k people.

Gundy has everything we need to make OSU a great program, but he is too stubborn to deviate from his approach. We are limited until/unless he does (like he was forced to do with Holgorsen). Couple that with low fan expectations and a forever contract? Hello Cheez-It and Independence Bowls ad infinitum.
But we have a bowl streak to defend
 
Apr 12, 2020
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The 2020 and 2021 recruiting classes are both looking really strong so the latest data points there don’t agree with you.


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The 2020 and 2021 recruiting classes are both looking really strong so the latest data points there don’t agree with you.


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I have no idea what really strong looks like to you but I think the past two years illustrate my point perfectly.
247 rankings: 2020 - 40th, 2021- 30th (best we’ve had in a long time)
ESPN rankings: 2020- 44th, 2021- 36th
Rivals: 2020- 43rd, 2021-34th

Do you really not feel like we could be recruiting better than getting classes in the 30-45 range?
I personally feel we should be consistently in the 20-30 range.
Sorry I should have said 2021 and 2022 (the current cycle), got mixed up cuz recruiting years are one year ahead.

I mean 247 and every other site plays up recruit rankings for business reasons and the best way to play them up are to put teams in a list. When we signed the both of the Green twins, Ty Williams, and Collin Oliver all were 4 stars. I don’t think 247 is biased against OSU that’s a bit conspiratorial but it’s well known that all the uncommitted kids late in a cycle see their ratings jump and the boring commits are often the downside from that. The way I see it, we brought in 6 blue chippers, they were 6 of the biggest targets the staff identified early, and as someone that follows recruiting pretty closely, that’s pretty good, and a lot better than 2 blue chippers (the 2nd one being Eli Russ even tho the aggregate ranking is lower on him).

Honestly, my opinion is that we’re already seeing the results of the poor recruiting and the poor luck in regard to our top prospects of 18,19,20. Yet, this is the best defensive stability we’ve seen in Gundy’s era. We’re still getting the QB recruits we want as we essentially handpicked Sanders, Shane, and Rangel. Gundy’s response to the poor skill position recruiting has been pretty clearly to empower the youth and i think that’s going to work out well for him based on what we’ve seen so far, plus Shretton is coming and we’re still in on Thompson.

We’ve got 2 clear problems. Playcalling, schematics, and QB development. You can’t blame the recruiting when you sign guys as highly desired as Sanders and Shane. It’s a coaching issue. The OL recruiting. Every good recruit is a Henson recruit and we have not seen the miracles in development we were led to believe with Dicky.

Gundy’s stability and ability to beat everyone but OU when OU is leaving means he should absolutely have the inside track to be at OSU for the foreseeable future. But I do want to see those signs that the program is staying hungry. We should be looking longingly at familiar but expensive names like Josh Henson and Graham Harrell for our OC spot.


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Nov 8, 2007
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If anyone doesn’t think this is largely a playcalling issue I will refer you to the following:

https://twitter.com/oktxarpoke/status/1437525896819265545?s=10



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Came to post this as well...that is truly pathetic.

Who knows though...maybe the coaches are playing the long game. Give all of our "big time" opponents lots of film of us running every second and long and then when they least expect it...BAM! Throw a bomb downfield....oh wait, it was intercepted.
 
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Sorry I should have said 2021 and 2022 (the current cycle), got mixed up cuz recruiting years are one year ahead.

I mean 247 and every other site plays up recruit rankings for business reasons and the best way to play them up are to put teams in a list. When we signed the both of the Green twins, Ty Williams, and Collin Oliver all were 4 stars. I don’t think 247 is biased against OSU that’s a bit conspiratorial but it’s well known that all the uncommitted kids late in a cycle see their ratings jump and the boring commits are often the downside from that. The way I see it, we brought in 6 blue chippers, they were 6 of the biggest targets the staff identified early, and as someone that follows recruiting pretty closely, that’s pretty good, and a lot better than 2 blue chippers (the 2nd one being Eli Russ even tho the aggregate ranking is lower on him).

Honestly, my opinion is that we’re already seeing the results of the poor recruiting and the poor luck in regard to our top prospects of 18,19,20. Yet, this is the best defensive stability we’ve seen in Gundy’s era. We’re still getting the QB recruits we want as we essentially handpicked Sanders, Shane, and Rangel. Gundy’s response to the poor skill position recruiting has been pretty clearly to empower the youth and i think that’s going to work out well for him based on what we’ve seen so far, plus Shretton is coming and we’re still in on Thompson.

We’ve got 2 clear problems. Playcalling, schematics, and QB development. You can’t blame the recruiting when you sign guys as highly desired as Sanders and Shane. It’s a coaching issue. The OL recruiting. Every good recruit is a Henson recruit and we have not seen the miracles in development we were led to believe with Dicky.

Gundy’s stability and ability to beat everyone but OU when OU is leaving means he should absolutely have the inside track to be at OSU for the foreseeable future. But I do want to see those signs that the program is staying hungry. We should be looking longingly at familiar but expensive names like Josh Henson and Graham Harrell for our OC spot.


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I can certainly agree with that. Last year's class had more top-end guys than we have had in way way to long. That's what's frustrating though, Gundy's stubbornness/complacency caused almost all the issues we see now.

We have always gotten some skill players here and there but the O-line hasn't been fixed in 6-7years and he squandered all the momentum we had from the new facilities and run we had from 2010-2013. Those two things combined should have been able to give us a boost in recruiting but Gundy didn't like the risk associated with higher-end recruits.

He also didn't want to work/recruit as hard as other schools and wanted a work-life balance for his coaches (he has said as much). I agree with work-life balance 100% BUT they chose this profession and are making millions to do the job. They don't get to make the same pay as others and take it easy while other coaches are out there busting their butts to recruit.

I also agree with the playcalling being a very big issue. I would not consider Gundy an offensive mind at all at this point (I'm sure he would tell you differently). He needs to get someone in here and let them run the offense with ZERO input from him. Gundy needs to be CEO only at this point.

I think we can all agree that Gundy is the best option for us long-term as coach if he will get some fire in him to compete again and hire an aggressive offensive coordinator that has a killer instinct that Gundy has lost.
 
Nov 25, 2009
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Its Shane and no he doesn’t as long as we have this O-Line. We lose the TU game if not for Sanders feet.
Won with the Defense, the Kicking team and some lucky bounces of the football and not that happy feet.

If not for the endurance Defense, the kick return, and the lucky bounces, we'd lost the game due to Sanders head and hands
 
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wrenhal

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Bear with me here for a second while I do some speculating. What if, the QB that we need out there will not be put on the field, because Gundy knows the moment that quarterback makes one mistake he will face criticism of people yelling favoritism?
What if ultimately, Gunnar is the better QB out there right now but Gundy won't put him in for fear that he'll make a mistake.

I could see this from a parents perspective.

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CowboyHoopsPride

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Bear with me here for a second while I do some speculating. What if, the QB that we need out there will not be put on the field, because Gundy knows the moment that quarterback makes one mistake he will face criticism of people yelling favoritism?
What if ultimately, Gunnar is the better QB out there right now but Gundy won't put him in for fear that he'll make a mistake.

I could see this from a parents perspective.

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If that's the case, I'd say they're both in the wrong business then and he should have told Gunnar to go elsewhere. But I personally do not think that is the issue.
 

wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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Bear with me here for a second while I do some speculating. What if, the QB that we need out there will not be put on the field, because Gundy knows the moment that quarterback makes one mistake he will face criticism of people yelling favoritism?
What if ultimately, Gunnar is the better QB out there right now but Gundy won't put him in for fear that he'll make a mistake.

I could see this from a parents perspective.

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If that's the case, I'd say they're both in the wrong business then and he should have told Gunnar to go elsewhere. But I personally do not think that is the issue.
Hey now I told you it was just speculation. I make no claims of legitimacy.

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snuffy

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Hey now I told you it was just speculation. I make no claims of legitimacy.

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I don’t think you idea is that crazy.
I do wonder if any true Freshman QB is ready to take snaps in a D1 game regardless of who he is related to and at this time, like in the past, we have to roll the dice with who we have rather than roll out a guy to early and get nothing from him for his entire time as a Cowboy.
 
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If that's the case, I'd say they're both in the wrong business then and he should have told Gunnar to go elsewhere. But I personally do not think that is the issue.
The issue is that Gundy believe in the number game. To him a mobile QB will need to be accounted to and will take out one defender off the opposing defense. Gundy thinks pocket passers like Weeden, Mason Rudolph and Shane Illingworth are outdated old fashion

While I agree with Gundy about the advantage of a mobile QB, I think SS is a good athlete but a poor game manager, very turnover prone, poor vision, poor anticipation, poor scrambler that when scrambling he only seeing running lanes and no longer sees open receivers.

We need passers than can run (like Chelf, Zac Robinson, Corndog etc.) and not runners that can pass.

Gundy is very loyal to SS.
 
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Nov 20, 2007
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The issue is that Gundy believe in the number game. To him a mobile QB will accounted to and will take out one defender off the opposing defense. Gundy thinks pocket passers like Weeden, Mason Rudolph and Shane Illingworth are outdated old fashion

While I agree with Gundy about the advantage of a mobile QB, I think SS is a good athlete but a poor game manager, very turnover prone, poor vision, poor anticipation, poor scrambler that when scrambling he only seeing running lanes and no longer sees open receivers.

We need passers than can run (like Chelf, Zac Robinson, Corndog etc.) and not runners that can pass.

Gundy is very loyal to SS.
I completely I agree with you on SS. He doesn't look off receivers and telegraphs his passes almost every time. I can't believe someone at this level has been playing college football for 3 years and still doesn't have fundamentals down. Either the kid doesn't have the , "IT", factor or he has terrible coaching or a combination of both. When is the last time we ran slant and drag patterns across the middle from left to right or vice versa? Just simple pass patterns are not even tried. It's just lob the ball up on a prayer. This football program has been on autopilot since 2014. It's a shame. I can't see how the big donors of this program are happy about this. This program has stagnated. Sad. It doesn't have to be this way.
 

andylicious

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Nov 16, 2013
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Bear with me here for a second while I do some speculating. What if, the QB that we need out there will not be put on the field, because Gundy knows the moment that quarterback makes one mistake he will face criticism of people yelling favoritism?
What if ultimately, Gunnar is the better QB out there right now but Gundy won't put him in for fear that he'll make a mistake.

I could see this from a parents perspective.

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No, he's not
 

MustangPokeFan

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I watched the 1987 OSU-Tulsa game this morning with TJ Rubley, Dennis Byrd, etc. TU was good that year. Holy crap, Barry was a Junior and already you could see lightning in a bottle every time he touched the ball. Ran the opening kick back and had several jaw dropping runs. Gundy played great in that game and had a highlight reel pass to Mitch Nash for a TD. That offense was incredible. Thurman was incredible. The defense just average. We outscored em’ 39-28