NCAA threatens pulling Women's College World Series in OKC over Transgender athletes bill

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Binman4OSU

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Aug 31, 2007
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#61
Have you ever seen a PGA tour player compete in the LPGA? You have seen a woman on a PGA tour event though. And if that is considered unfair then create their own Trans league and hope they can have enough to field an event.
Mianne Bagger started playing on the Australian LPGT in 2004 and on the European Ladies Tour in 2005.

The LPGA still bans her from playing that tour and the USGA will not consider it until she complies with the current policy that requires her sign a waiver to give the USGA complete and unrestricted access to her medical records, and pre op and post op psychiatric records.

Her accomplishments as a transgender athlete playing on these women's tours and Amateurs' accomplishments
  • 1999 South Australian Ladies Amateur
  • 2000 South Australian Business Women's Championship
  • 2001 South Australian Ladies Amateur, South Australian 72 Hole Strokeplay Championship (Rene Erichsen Trophy)
  • 2002 South Australian Ladies Amateur
After becoming the 6th best player in Australia in 2003, she turned a professional golfer.
  • In 2004 she played the Swedish Telia Tour and finished twice in the top 10.
  • In 2005 she played her first tournament on the Ladies European Tour. She finished in the 35th place
  • In 2006 she finished in 91st place year
  • In 2007 she finished in 54th place for the year
 
Feb 11, 2007
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#63
It sounds like another kind of controversial issue in which the government doesn't have enough good sense to deal with, and so should stay out of it and let organizations most impacted by it figure out how to deal with it. As someone who doesn't know a whole lot about transsexual sports issues, I would suggest requiring males, who feel like women, to first be castrated before competing with real women.
But being male or female is not just about testosterone...its about our DNA. Little boys and girls are different from their beginning well before their harmones kick in.
 

ScooberJake

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#64
This is the issue right here, while you may be addressing an issue for some you are doing so by limiting access to another group.
Although I generally fall to the left of most on the board, I don't at all understand the transgender argument here. If women's sports are intended to give women and girls a place to participate and compete in sports against other females, surely that is intended to be based on the differences in genetic gender (hormones, muscle mass, height, etc) rather than on their psychological identification of gender. It seems pretty straightforward and logical based on the basic concept of girl's/women's sports that transgender females shouldn't be allowed to compete with girls. Transgender males, I suppose, wouldn't cause the issue with fairness.

I'll say that generally the move by the Oklahoma Legislature seems a bit "culture war-ish" and perhaps oversteps by trying to impose their view on collegiate athletics which naturally compete beyond the boundaries of Oklahoma. Might be better to just rule your own kingdom rather than (intentionally?) impacting your neighbors.

Also, it seems a poor strategic decision. The conservative south would probably have the upper hand here if the Big XII, SEC, Big10?, ACC?, all worked this into their own rules, then pushed for NCAA-wide adoption. The PAC-12 can leave over it if they want.
 
Sep 22, 2011
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#65
But being male or female is not just about testosterone...its about our DNA. Little boys and girls are different from their beginning well before their harmones kick in.
True, but athletically speaking, the glaring differences dont start until the testosterone starts kicking in, its why you see all the elementary girls beating boys in wrestling and races and playing other sports with boys until around middle school when they all fall off the map. Bone density, muscle mass, ability to put on muscle, changes in frame, all coming from the testosterone that hits during puberty, not to mention agression and other psychological changes that come to boys during puberty
 

wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#66
Does the law prohibit college athletes from playing? If so and the NCAA has a different policy then this is a big issue and seems pretty clear in what the NCAA wil do based on their stance if not I don’t know that this is just legislating to the base. I would bet a majority of Oklahomans (even those not died in the wool GOP) support the bill so it would representative government of the populace and if the NCAA athletes aren’t impacted then why stop the tournament no teams have refused to play in the state to my knowledge. Like has UCLA a premier program from a progressive state refused a series with OU or has a team not been allowed to play with a full roster in Ok. Has an Ok team refused to take the field at home or anywhere against a trans athlete? If play is already going on it would seem the NCAA is cutting off their nose to spite their face as this is always a big event for women’s sports. That all being said the NCAA is a private group and can do what they want. There is no shortage in irony that with the massive strides that have been made for female sports that athletes born as males are one of the most polarizing issues going now.
Currently the most I've seen "trans" athletes in have been track and field. A place where even some of the slowest boys can medal in girls events. There are examples of trans athletes (why is it always boys going into girls sports, why don't we see it the other way around) winning events at state competitions, breaking records set by actual girls, and competing for scholarships in girls sports.

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wrenhal

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#67
But you could honestly flip the roles and say that the state is cutting off *our* nose to spite the face. If there is no problem (even evidenced by answering your questions), why introduce this legislation?

I would be interested in polling female athletes and seeing their opinion, especially how it is distributed across age.

I also find it ironic that the NCAA won't host championships in states that discriminate. It seems like just a couple of weeks ago the NCAA was discriminating against its own member athletes at a championship.
The reason would be if you are an elected official sent to represent the people of your state and 75% agree that male born athletes shouldn’t compete in female sports or vice versa then they are doing their job. A bigger discussion could be had that a state with bigger problems should focus elsewhere but I digress.

Trans athletes will be an issue. I have an acquaintance who’s daughter wrestles here in DFW and she is good. She isn’t good enough to beat a trans athlete that has all the evolutionary advantages of puberty to males. She wins all her other matches at least at the local level and they will not let her wrestle the trans athlete who is by every measure except his own view of himself is male. It’s a serious advantage whether it be one we decide to accept as a right of the individual or eliminate as a culture. This is gonna be a bigger issue than it is now but for now it seems like mainly posturing on all sides as I doubt a trans athlete throwing it faster or hitting it farther decides who wins and I doubt there are 10 if any trans athletes competing at the OSSAA or state funded level.
May not be happening in oklahoma much, but other states have had records by girls broken by trans athletes, medals won by then, and yes even competition for scholarships from girls that have competed their whole life in the sport to be top, only to be bested by a boy turned girl..

Give them their own league, or trash title ix as it means nothing anymore if you do this.

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Binman4OSU

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#68
I saw a segment on this on the Tulsa News last night. They were saying the estimated financial impact to the Tulsa region would be over $100 million if the NCAA pulls the Wrestling and NCAA Basketball Tournaments 1st and 2nd round games from Tulsa over the next 2 years.

People in the Tulsa region seems to be very much against the state going through with this legislation.

Karsten is also set to host the NCAA Regionals for Golf in May. That may be on the chopping block as well.

Is this type of economic inflow for our local economy worth losing over this legislation right now?
 

OSUCowboy787

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#69
Mianne Bagger started playing on the Australian LPGT in 2004 and on the European Ladies Tour in 2005.

The LPGA still bans her from playing that tour and the USGA will not consider it until she complies with the current policy that requires her sign a waiver to give the USGA complete and unrestricted access to her medical records, and pre op and post op psychiatric records.

Her accomplishments as a transgender athlete playing on these women's tours and Amateurs' accomplishments
  • 1999 South Australian Ladies Amateur
  • 2000 South Australian Business Women's Championship
  • 2001 South Australian Ladies Amateur, South Australian 72 Hole Strokeplay Championship (Rene Erichsen Trophy)
  • 2002 South Australian Ladies Amateur
After becoming the 6th best player in Australia in 2003, she turned a professional golfer.
  • In 2004 she played the Swedish Telia Tour and finished twice in the top 10.
  • In 2005 she played her first tournament on the Ladies European Tour. She finished in the 35th place
  • In 2006 she finished in 91st place year
  • In 2007 she finished in 54th place for the year
Not competed in LPGA. If He/She wants to compete in the PGA under the USGA He/She can provide medical information and likely be granted an opportunity to try and earn a tour card.
 

Jostate

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#72
What if your daughter was born male and track was the only thing that made her feel like life was worth living?

.
Then I would know my "daughter" was a male who had elective surgery to give her the appearance of being female. That makes her a female about as much as adding a fin to my back makes me a dolphin. She can't get pregnant, still should get a prostate exam when she turns 50. The Dr's will call her Ma'am as they treat her like a male because there are differences beyond appendages that hormone therapy doesn't resolve.

To your point if he feels he must be a she, and track is the only thing that makes her feel like living, she may fall into a subcategory of a subcategory that we can't accommodate without stepping on some else's toes.

If we figure out a way to accommodate everyone let me know. I'll play along too.
 

Binman4OSU

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#74
Sounds like someone suffering from severe mental illness. I don’t know that fretting over their spot on the girl’s track team should be that high of a priority.
I can't imagine that in the state of OK there would be more than maybe 15-50 transgender girls that would want to join their HS track team in the entire state. That is a very limited set of people.

And Legislation on that is just insane from the state level. I'm not convinced the potential financial impact to the state is worth passing legislation that most likely will only apply to less than 100 people in the ENTIRE state
 

UrbanCowboy1

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#75
I was telling my wife about this last night and found myself getting more worked up than I thought I would... I'm not sure if my daughter (6) will want to get into sports since my family isn't that big into athletics but the thought of her being limited because of what another person thinks they are gets under my skin. And @Binman4OSU 's e-sports post actually pissed me off a bit. If a woman/girl wants to excel in an athletic sport, they shouldn't be told "too bad, there's always e-sports though" because of people that identify as females who are genetically males blocking them from excelling. Regardless of what you think you are, having male genetics puts you in a physical advantage over those with female genetics. I truly do not understand how people that are feminist or for women's rights aren't up in arms about this. Also, that whole "military capabilities" post seemed like a complete cop out. We still have individual sports that our militaries aged out of before the US military even existed...
I'd say that they are up in arms right now. It's a big deal within the left that isn't publicized. It's very similar as to what happened with the Republicans/Trump supporters last year. Leaders of the movement suddenly weren't committed enough and are labeled traitors. And just like that you go from leading a side to being called a phony because you didn't take it far enough. Hyper partisanship at it's worst.
 
May 31, 2007
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#76
I can't imagine that in the state of OK there would be more than maybe 15-50 transgender girls that would want to join their HS track team in the entire state. That is a very limited set of people.

And Legislation on that is just insane from the state level. I'm not convinced the potential financial impact to the state is worth passing legislation that most likely will only apply to less than 100 people in the ENTIRE state
When it’s about right and wrong I don’t think it should matter the number of people who are impacted.
 

Boomer.....

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Feb 15, 2007
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#77
Food for thought (Opinion piece in USA Today)

Transgender athletes don't belong in girls' sports. Let my daughter compete fairly.

Boys with mediocre times can compete in the boys’ category and then completely dominate girls’ events just a few weeks later. I’ve already seen this happening in Connecticut. After a series of unremarkable finishes as a boy in the 2018 indoor season, the same athlete began competing — and winningas a girl in the outdoor season that started just weeks later.

My daughter would have qualified for the New England regionals in the 55-meter dash in Spring 2019, but instead, the top two spots went to biological boys who identify as girls. She lost her chance to compete and instead had to watch from the stands.
 

Boomer.....

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#78
To say that men and women are physically created equal is laughable. That's quite the difference.

Two biological males identifying as transgender females won 15 state championships in women’s track events. One of the males broke 10 state records previously held by ten different female athletes.

The biologically male high school students are dominating the 55-meter dash in girls’ track and field in Connecticut, but they don’t rank among the state’s top 100 male competitors for the same race, records show.

Transgender high school juniors Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood’s personal records for the 55-meter dash place high in female competition, but their times aren’t as notable in boys’ competition.

Miller and Yearwood’s personal records for the 55-meter dash clock in at 6.91 seconds and 7.01 seconds, respectively, ranking them first and second in the state’s female competition, and third and seventh nationally.

Miller and Yearwood rank 120th and 195th, respectively, against their male competitors for the state’s 55-meter dash, DyeStat records show.
 

UrbanCowboy1

Some cowboys gots smarts real good like me.
Aug 8, 2006
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#79
What if your daughter was born male and track was the only thing that made her feel like life was worth living?

This is a complicated issue and I don't know what to make of it. On one hand I think everyone who talks about how this negatively impacts women who were born that way have a great and logical point. On the other, I don't know that any of us has a child who isn't sure who they really are and I don't know that I would want to limit experiences if it were my kid just because someone else says it isn't fair.

None of this is an easy decision.
Have to slam the gong on ya there, bud. This goes back to my earlier point about being trans vs forcing the rest of the world to accommodate your beliefs about yourself. If you want to switch up your body, that's on you, no one will stop you (legally). But you can't box in a lower weight class just because you view yourself as a middleweight. The facts of what's inside matter because it can demonstrably alter the outcome of a contest. It's the same reason we try to keep steroids out of sports - there's an advantage there that we all know isn't fair. But for some bizarre reason that I can't understand, we're all supposed to stick our heads in the sand and ignore the genetics of someone born male.

And this is more of an open question, but would like an answer from you as well. Do you really want to watch a basketball game where someone identifies as a girl but is 100% genetically a guy dominates every game? How is that fun in any way for anyone? And what recourse do the girls have? I still haven't heard an answer to that one - they can't go form their own league. They have no where to go. They literally have to just shut up and not be bothered by it or quit. That's so regressive it makes me want to scream.
 
Nov 23, 2010
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#80
I can't imagine that in the state of OK there would be more than maybe 15-50 transgender girls that would want to join their HS track team in the entire state. That is a very limited set of people.

And Legislation on that is just insane from the state level. I'm not convinced the potential financial impact to the state is worth passing legislation that most likely will only apply to less than 100 people in the ENTIRE state
Agreed, I don't think new laws should be passed until it's demonstrated that current OSSAA rules are inadequate. They have been in place since June 2015, and to my knowledge there have been no transgender athletes in Oklahoma high school sports.

The two transgender girls in CT were allowed to compete without taking any hormone blockers, which would not be the case in Oklahoma. Whether those interventions are sufficient is obviously debatable, but they seem like they should be a minimum requirement. Anyone competing in the women's division should have a testosterone level within expected norms for women athletes on the day of competition.