Murderer's Row MBB

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Nov 27, 2007
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#21
I've been wondering why we still consider the previous recruiting class as top 25 when it's top player didn't play a single game for us. Definitely wasn't a top 25 class without Marcus Watson.
Sure, in hindsight, you can go back over and reanalyze everything. Chicago trading to number 2 to take Trubiski before Mahomes and Watson...

A recruiting ranking is simply a value from collective data on a group of individual talents that pledge their commitment to an institution. These rankings come from an "unbiased" third-party organization that evaluates and ranks the talent. These organizations looked at the collection of talent going to each school and ranked them accordingly.

So at that time of national signing day, it was a top 25 class for Boynton according to the experts.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#22
What would a class of Walker, Donovan Williams, Bernard Kouma and MAM be ranked?

Combined, those players average 2.5 stars

Because, again, unless Flavors and Bryce Williams choose to take their Covid year, after this year, thats whose left to build roster depth from this years class.

If Williams and Flavors stay, they actually would drop that average player ranking.

If B. Williams and Flavors come back next year, of the players we have left from the last 2 recruiting classes, our average star ranking will be 2.36.
 
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Oct 29, 2016
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#24
We're in the midst of one of the best basketball seasons in many years and there's still people spewing garbage from their mouth. The most underappreciate fan base of all-time
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#25
We're in the midst of one of the best basketball seasons in many years and there's still people spewing garbage from their mouth. The most underappreciate fan base of all-time
Boynton is getting plenty of support and patience.

No one is even remotely suggesting he be fired or even on the hot seat right now.

OSU fans, at least the ones I talk to love Boynton and are rooting like heck for him.

But....it's coming to the time in his tenure where his results are starting to get measured compared to the bar that should always be set at OSU.

For instance, In the 5 years before he took over OSU made the NCAA tournament 4 times.

We won 8 or more games in Conference in all but the last year under Ford in those years.
 
Nov 27, 2007
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#27
Iowa State leading in 2nd half at TCU, KSU only lost by 3 to Texas tonight. Neither of those games is a gimme, especially for a team that turns it over nearly 20 times per game.
The Big12 is an interesting beast this year. I don’t remember ever seeing it this tight. Obviously, Baylor aside, the next 6 teams are truly a coin flip. Any of those teams will win on any given night. You’re right, the bottom 3 cannot be overlooked.
The big 12 tournament will be awesome this year.
 
Jan 13, 2008
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#28
What would a class of Walker, Donovan Williams, Bernard Kouma and MAM be ranked?

Combined, those players average 2.5 stars

Because, again, unless Flavors and Bryce Williams choose to take their Covid year, after this year, thats whose left to build roster depth from this years class.

If Williams and Flavors stay, they actually would drop that average player ranking.

If B. Williams and Flavors come back next year, of the players we have left from the last 2 recruiting classes, our average star ranking will be 2.36.
Are you serious? Walker was 4 and would have been considered the prized recruit in most of our past classes. Williams/MAM were 3's. But you are using Bernard Kouma's top 400/no-star to bring the average ranking down. I'll take Rondel and Kouma against two average 2-star players any day. Because they would both have the same average, right?

Only the top 7-8 players play and the rest are developing or going to be leaving.

Your post is proof that you can make numbers represent the story you want to tell.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#29
Are you serious? Walker was 4 and would have been considered the prized recruit in most of our past classes. Williams/MAM were 3's. But you are using Bernard Kouma's top 400/no-star to bring the average ranking down. I'll take Rondel and Kouma against two average 2-star players any day. Because they would both have the same average, right?

Only the top 7-8 players play and the rest are developing or going to be leaving.

Your post is proof that you can make numbers represent the story you want to tell.
The statement was made that we are bulding depth because we have recruited back to back Top 25 classes.

I'm not trying to tell a story other than that the last 2 Top 25 classes aren't building quality depth within the program as much as it would seem.

Again...If B. Williams and Flavors come back next year, of the players we have left from the last 2 recruiting classes, our average star ranking will be 2.36

I'm using every players ranking and averaging them together.

That's nothing other than a 100% representation of what has been recruited and what will be left next year.

There's no other way to represent that infornation.

Again....we're talking depth.

So....what do you think that class would be ranked? Because that's who we will have left after this year.

That is, again, unless B. Williams and Flavors stay, but, again, they would bring down the recruiting average.

I like Boynton and support him.

The question was, though, are the last 2 Top 25 classes actually building quality depth in the program to make us the kind of program we are aspiring to once again become.

I've presented evidence that it's not.

If something happens with Ice next year, and we have to rely strictly on whats left of the last 2 recruiting classes, how good will we be?

I don't think that team would be terrible, but it won't be great.

I think it would be another year of fighting to get close to .500 in Conference and somehow squeaking our way into the Tournament.

With a distinct possibility of neither one of those things happening.

Having back to back Top 25 Classes would insinuate that we would be quite a bit better than that by the time one of those classes is in their 3rd year in the program.
 
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Nov 14, 2010
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#30
Are you serious? Walker was 4 and would have been considered the prized recruit in most of our past classes.
Since 2010, OSU basketball has recruited players ranked higher than Rondel Walker in the years of
2010 Cobbins
2011 Nash
2012 Smart
2013 Stevie Clark
2014 Joe Burton
2015 Evans
2019 Watson
2020 Cunningham

Getting highly recruited players hasn't been the issue for OSU basketball.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#31
Boynton is getting plenty of support and patience.

No one is even remotely suggesting he be fired or even on the hot seat right now.

OSU fans, at least the ones I talk to love Boynton and are rooting like heck for him.

But....it's coming to the time in his tenure where his results are starting to get measured compared to the bar that should always be set at OSU.

For instance, In the 5 years before he took over OSU made the NCAA tournament 4 times.

We won 8 or more games in Conference in all but the last year under Ford in those years.
I feel like Boynton's being given plenty of patience & grace, & rightfully so.

I also know that basketball's a sport where a coach can make a pretty serious impact on results in a short timespan, whereas football tends to take longer to build a roster. Boynton got a pass in year one, but the 'he's building depth' line falls a little flat 3 years later.

It's time to finish this season strong & be better next year, otherwise, his tenure's been nothing more than treading water.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#32
I feel like Boynton's being given plenty of patience & grace, & rightfully so.

I also know that basketball's a sport where a coach can make a pretty serious impact on results in a short timespan, whereas football tends to take longer to build a roster. Boynton got a pass in year one, but the 'he's building depth' line falls a little flat 3 years later.

It's time to finish this season strong & be better next year, otherwise, his tenure's been nothing more than treading water.
I agree with everything you said.

We lose the top pick in the NBA draft this year.

Will we be better next year without Cunningham?
 
Jan 13, 2008
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#33
The statement was made that we are bulding depth because we have recruited back to back Top 25 classes.

I'm not trying to tell a story other than that the last 2 Top 25 classes aren't building quality depth within the program as much as it would seem.

Again...If B. Williams and Flavors come back next year, of the players we have left from the last 2 recruiting classes, our average star ranking will be 2.36

I'm using every players ranking and averaging them together.

That's nothing other than a 100% representation of what has been recruited and what will be left next year.

There's no other way to represent that infornation.

Again....we're talking depth.

So....what do you think that class would be ranked? Because that's who we will have left after this year.

That is, again, unless B. Williams and Flavors stay, but, again, they would bring down the recruiting average.

I like Boynton and support him.

The question was, though, are the last 2 Top 25 classes actually building quality depth in the program to make us the kind of program we are aspiring to once again become.

I've presented evidence that it's not.

If something happens with Ice next year, and we have to rely strictly on whats left of the last 2 recruiting classes, how good will we be?

I don't think that team would be terrible, but it won't be great.

I think it would be another year of fighting to get close to .500 in Conference and somehow squeaking our way into the Tournament.

Having back to back Top 25 Classes would insinuate that we would be quite a bit better than that by the time one of those classes is in their 3rd year in the program.
In basketball, I view ratings as the probability of the player contributing. After they have played about 10-15 games, then the reality starts to set in on what the player can do.

I still consider the 2019 class of high quality because of the contribution level. AA, Kalib, Keylan, and Harris (would be playing if not injured).

2020 class is appears to be headed towards high quality. Cade will be gone. Rondel and MAM play like starters. If Bryce comes back then that is another positive/starter. The book is still out on Kouma and D Williams. Pena is disappointing, but Kouma was the only player he was rated higher than.

OSU is looking at 6 - 7 players from the last two classes getting solid playing time next year, that will have already had solid playing time this year. I consider that building some depth.

I'm more concerned about the 2021 class. There isn't one. If ICE doesn't return, then we would need AA to have another great off-season like this year.

I agree about next year, we won't be terrible but it won't be great especially in a tough Big 12. We would need some other teams to have a drop off. Conversations would be a lot different if we were in any of the other P5 Conferences

The only way I see 2021 changing is if a couple players POP in their skill sets during the off-season. If a player developed into the Mo Baker (pre-injury) or Tony Allen mold that could dribble-drive, then that opens things up a lot. Currently AA, Rondel, and Bryce are the best candidates to make that jump. Currently, AA can't dribble in traffic.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#34
In basketball, I view ratings as the probability of the player contributing. After they have played about 10-15 games, then the reality starts to set in on what the player can do.

I still consider the 2019 class of high quality because of the contribution level. AA, Kalib, Keylan, and Harris (would be playing if not injured).

2020 class is appears to be headed towards high quality. Cade will be gone. Rondel and MAM play like starters. If Bryce comes back then that is another positive/starter. The book is still out on Kouma and D Williams. Pena is disappointing, but Kouma was the only player he was rated higher than.

OSU is looking at 6 - 7 players from the last two classes getting solid playing time next year, that will have already had solid playing time this year. I consider that building some depth.

I'm more concerned about the 2021 class. There isn't one. If ICE doesn't return, then we would need AA to have another great off-season like this year.

I agree about next year, we won't be terrible but it won't be great especially in a tough Big 12. We would need some other teams to have a drop off. Conversations would be a lot different if we were in any of the other P5 Conferences

The only way I see 2021 changing is if a couple players POP in their skill sets during the off-season. If a player developed into the Mo Baker (pre-injury) or Tony Allen mold that could dribble-drive, then that opens things up a lot. Currently AA, Rondel, and Bryce are the best candidates to make that jump. Currently, AA can't dribble in traffic.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Where we seem to differ is that, from the last 2 recruiting classes, of the 6 or so players that will make up next year's roster, I'm of the opinion that that roster is very very average, not high caliber.

I think that with that roster we will be fighting to get to. 500 in the league and trying to barely squeak our way into the tourney.

2019 class
AA good player
Ka. Boone Inconsistent and not reliable, but shows flashes of being good.
Ke. Boone Has been passed over. Hasn't shown much at OSU.
C. Harris Who knows how he'll come off of injury but I put his performance before injury in the Ke. Boone category.

To me....that's not high caliber D1 depth

Beyond AA, everything else is a gamble.

2020
MAM good player
Walker good player
Kouma- not very good
D. Williams who knows

I think what will be left of 2020 next year has potential to be pretty good but not high caliber

All in all, that roster wouldn't be terrible but it wouldn't be High caliber either.

It would have 3 pretty much guaranteed good players, then a bunch of wildcards.

Both Boone's
Harris
D. Williams
Kouma are wildcards in terms of what you're going to end up getting out of them.

I think that roster struggles to get to .500 in Conference and also struggles to barely make the NCAA tournament.

In my opinion, that's not High Caliber depth.
 
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Jul 25, 2018
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#35
In basketball, I view ratings as the probability of the player contributing. After they have played about 10-15 games, then the reality starts to set in on what the player can do.

I still consider the 2019 class of high quality because of the contribution level. AA, Kalib, Keylan, and Harris (would be playing if not injured).

2020 class is appears to be headed towards high quality. Cade will be gone. Rondel and MAM play like starters. If Bryce comes back then that is another positive/starter. The book is still out on Kouma and D Williams. Pena is disappointing, but Kouma was the only player he was rated higher than.

OSU is looking at 6 - 7 players from the last two classes getting solid playing time next year, that will have already had solid playing time this year. I consider that building some depth.

I'm more concerned about the 2021 class. There isn't one. If ICE doesn't return, then we would need AA to have another great off-season like this year.

I agree about next year, we won't be terrible but it won't be great especially in a tough Big 12. We would need some other teams to have a drop off. Conversations would be a lot different if we were in any of the other P5 Conferences

The only way I see 2021 changing is if a couple players POP in their skill sets during the off-season. If a player developed into the Mo Baker (pre-injury) or Tony Allen mold that could dribble-drive, then that opens things up a lot. Currently AA, Rondel, and Bryce are the best candidates to make that jump. Currently, AA can't dribble in traffic.
I don't really disagree with what you're saying, & admittedly, I haven't followed them as closely as you appear to.

That being said, it seems like you're really hopping on this 'depth' train, while admitting that 2021 doesn't look any more, or as promising as this season unless one of the current guys develops into one of the best players the program's ever seen. I guess I can't recall as much discussion about 'building depth', in the face of mediocre results, than with Boynton.

It doesn't take that long to turn a basketball roster over, particularly with the transfer portal today. If we're not at least knocking on the door of the Sweet 16 by next year, it may be time to move on.
 
Jan 13, 2008
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#36
Since 2010, OSU basketball has recruited players ranked higher than Rondel Walker in the years of
2010 Cobbins
2011 Nash
2012 Smart
2013 Stevie Clark
2014 Joe Burton
2015 Evans
2019 Watson
2020 Cunningham

Getting highly recruited players hasn't been the issue for OSU basketball.
I agree, saying most of our past classes is over-stating it. He would have been the highest rated player in 3 of the last 5 classes. :D

I think ratings 50-150 are really tight. We watched Walker's ratings bounce around till the very end.

Nash, Smart, Evans, and Cunningham were definitely higher caliber players.

Out of the other 4 players, only Cobbins had a significant contribution.

Stevie Clark, Joe Burton, and Watson just remind me of the 2009 class.

Class of 2009, 3 players ranked higher than Walker and 6 total in the top 200. Nothing substantial from them:
Raymond Penn (Decent Player)
Karron Johnson
Roger Franklin
Jarred Shaw (actually resulted in us losing Darrell Williams)
Reger Dowell
Torin Walker
Fred Gulley (unranked)
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#37
I agree, saying most of our past classes is over-stating it. He would have been the highest rated player in 3 of the last 5 classes. :D

I think ratings 50-150 are really tight. We watched Walker's ratings bounce around till the very end.

Nash, Smart, Evans, and Cunningham were definitely higher caliber players.

Out of the other 4 players, only Cobbins had a significant contribution.

Stevie Clark, Joe Burton, and Watson just remind me of the 2009 class.

Class of 2009, 3 players ranked higher than Walker and 6 total in the top 200. Nothing substantial from them:
Raymond Penn (Decent Player)
Karron Johnson
Roger Franklin
Jarred Shaw (actually resulted in us losing Darrell Williams)
Reger Dowell
Torin Walker
Fred Gulley (unranked)
I think Walker is going to be a good player for OSU

Already is a good player.

I think he has the chance to be a Marcus Dove type guy in terms of providing a defensive stopper and a well defined offensive role.

I enjoy watching him play.
 
Jan 13, 2008
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#38
I don't really disagree with what you're saying, & admittedly, I haven't followed them as closely as you appear to.

That being said, it seems like you're really hopping on this 'depth' train, while admitting that 2021 doesn't look any more, or as promising as this season unless one of the current guys develops into one of the best players the program's ever seen. I guess I can't recall as much discussion about 'building depth', in the face of mediocre results, than with Boynton.

It doesn't take that long to turn a basketball roster over, particularly with the transfer portal today. If we're not at least knocking on the door of the Sweet 16 by next year, it may be time to move on.
On recent teams, I think the depth concern is the huge drop-off in the "starter" quality and players 6-8. Yor is the only player that we really miss from last year's team and that showed against WV, KU, and TCU.

I agree with @Herecomesbullets about the quality. We have depth when it comes to good players. However we are missing the 3 players that score 60% of the points or 2 players that score around 50%. We don't have the Reeves-Rutherford OR Joey-JL3 w/McFarlin OR Smart-Brown-Nash. We have a lot of contributors, that occasionally have high scoring games.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#39
I don't really disagree with what you're saying, & admittedly, I haven't followed them as closely as you appear to.

That being said, it seems like you're really hopping on this 'depth' train, while admitting that 2021 doesn't look any more, or as promising as this season unless one of the current guys develops into one of the best players the program's ever seen. I guess I can't recall as much discussion about 'building depth', in the face of mediocre results, than with Boynton.

It doesn't take that long to turn a basketball roster over, particularly with the transfer portal today. If we're not at least knocking on the door of the Sweet 16 by next year, it may be time to move on.
Heres my concern for next year....
I think it's a very plausible scenario that our appeal doesn't get addressed until after this year so Cunningham, the #1 pick in the draft, gets to play in the NCAA tournament.

Then, we get banned for next year.

At that point one would have to assume that there will be a good chance that Ice would need to leave for his Senior year.

I think that cloud is hanging over this year's Recruiting class as well.

Without Ice next year, OSU would be a very average team.
 
Jan 13, 2008
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#40
I think Walker is going to be a good player for OSU

Already is a good player.

I think he has the chance to be a Marcus Dove type guy in terms of providing a defensive stopper and a well defined offensive role.

I enjoy watching him play.
If his handles improve, he could be that slasher to the hole and a 15-17pt player. Like the winner against KU, it doesn't matter what is happening to the rest of his body, he manages to get the shot up and in.