Jan. 6 sentencing...

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wrenhal

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#41
Those who caused destruction should face justice.
At what point, though, should the federal government be able to step in if the state and local authorities appear to have abandoned their citizens to the criminals?
I'm not saying we've reached any point like that, but some of these states/cities don't appear to be trying very hard.
It's a fine line, but when does the welfare of the law abiding citizens take precedence at the federal level to that of the states?

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The federal government should never be able to prosecute people for state crimes under state law.

Never.

NEVER.

They should stick to only those crimes which constitute a violation of federal law.

Forever.

It's not a fine line. It's the bright and red line of the Constitutional principle of federalism.
Policing, I didn't say prosecute. I personally don't want it to ever happen either, but you have to admit that protection of the law abiding citizen doesn't seem to be a priority to some of these mayors.

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CowboyJD

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#43
Policing, I didn't say prosecute. I personally don't want it to ever happen either, but you have to admit that protection of the law abiding citizen doesn't seem to be a priority to some of these mayors.

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Policing is the first step in prosecution. It's part and parcel of prosecution. They are inextricably intertwined.

Unless you're advocating for investigation, the exercise of federal police power to enforce state laws, and arrest without ever bothering to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

And no, I don't have to admit that. You haven't taken any steps to actually prove your rank opinion as an actual fact needing admission.

Besides, if the law abiding citizens of a particular city or town believe their mayors aren't properly prioritizing their responsibilities, there is a very simple solution for them that doesn't involve abandoning federalism. That very simple solution isn't available to them once the feds improperly start "policing" outside of their jurisdiction and authority.
 
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TheMonkey

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#45
I think everyone has to realize at this point these aren't the outliers in the Republican party. This is the Republican party. This is now the party that punishes the leaders that acknowledge Trump lost the election and ignore the leaders who pay minors for sex.
Case and point. If he were an outlier, why would he be named to the commission by McCarthy?
 
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Stillwater
#46
Good grief. The House is full of children.
Growing up I use to look up to people who held office, I saw them as distinguished members of our soceity, but now it seems all they do is point fingers at each other and bicker about the other party. What happened to checks and balances? Each party seems to just be fading further and further into extremes at this time.
 

Jostate

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#47
Policing is the first step in prosecution. It's part and parcel of prosecution. They are inextricably intertwined.

Unless you're advocating for investigation, the exercise of federal police power to enforce state laws, and arrest without ever bothering to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

And no, I don't have to admit that. You haven't taken any steps to actually prove your rank opinion as an actual fact needing admission.

Besides, if the law abiding citizens of a particular city or town believe their mayors aren't properly prioritizing their responsibilities, there is a very simple solution for them that doesn't involve abandoning federalism. That very simple solution isn't available to them once the feds improperly start "policing" outside of their jurisdiction and authority.
It appears protection of the law abiding citizens is not a priority when protesters loot and burn and the police stand down. I've see videos of antifa blocking streets, and not allowing passage, while the cops stood by 200 feet away and allowed it to happen.

To your point the citizens of these cities get what they vote for, so I don't see the need to involve the feds.
 
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#49
The cartoon clearly was downplaying Jan 6th vs Summer 2020 protest.

Step ONE...before we as a collective can begin to come together and get past this....we must ALL recognize that both of these events were atrocities..and any attempt to compare and contrast them as anything but atrocities is a dishonest and weak minded attempt at tribalism
I wonder how Samuel Adams would react to your post? He was not a "Mother Milk toast" kinda guy. Though cities, counties and states, largely should address the Summer of Love or, "Mostly Peaceful Riots" as they were framed by the criminal enterprise which passes for our government, there's a major difference: The Mostly Peaceful Riots were largely against Private Property and violent. Whereas 1/6 was largely orchestrated by government insiders who generated the violence against PUBLIC property. How would you define, "Redress of Grievances"? Where does one go to get such a relief?
 

CowboyJD

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#51
I wonder how Samuel Adams would react to your post? He was not a "Mother Milk toast" kinda guy. Though cities, counties and states, largely should address the Summer of Love or, "Mostly Peaceful Riots" as they were framed by the criminal enterprise which passes for our government, there's a major difference: The Mostly Peaceful Riots were largely against Private Property and violent. Whereas 1/6 was largely orchestrated by government insiders who generated the violence against PUBLIC property. How would you define, "Redress of Grievances"? Where does one go to get such a relief?


 
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#52
Democrat cities were offered help, especially to protect federal buildings. They refused it. I say that's on the mayor's and governors, not the feds. They offered. I think it's sad that the cry of "defund the police" was parked by many leftists, and now they are having to backtrack because of the crime increase.

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Is US crime up in 2021? I know homicide rate is up but not overall crime.
 

wrenhal

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#53
Democrat cities were offered help, especially to protect federal buildings. They refused it. I say that's on the mayor's and governors, not the feds. They offered. I think it's sad that the cry of "defund the police" was parked by many leftists, and now they are having to backtrack because of the crime increase.

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Is US crime up in 2021? I know homicide rate is up but not overall crime.
In certain cities it does seem to be up. I'd have to look up the statistics but when you've got people walking in broad daylight into the stores in California and walking out with duffle bags full of stuff, it sure seems like it.

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TheMonkey

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#54
In certain cities it does seem to be up. I'd have to look up the statistics but when you've got people walking in broad daylight into the stores in California and walking out with duffle bags full of stuff, it sure seems like it.

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This is a great example of why I take issue with so many of your posts. Someone asks a statistical question and you give anecdotal evidence or simply your impression. It indicates that your positions on most things are based on little-to-no evidence, but instead is simply based on your opinion – which is influenced heavily by bias.
 

wrenhal

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#55
In certain cities it does seem to be up. I'd have to look up the statistics but when you've got people walking in broad daylight into the stores in California and walking out with duffle bags full of stuff, it sure seems like it.

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This is a great example of why I take issue with so many of your posts. Someone asks a statistical question and you give anecdotal evidence or simply your impression. It indicates that your positions on most things are based on little-to-no evidence, but instead is simply based on your opinion – which is influenced heavily by bias.
I also never said the whole U.S., but you changed the median. I've only talked about just cities.
And I said I'd have to look out up, I have heard specifically about homicides being up, but I've heard about crime in general being up in places. Especially those that tried to defund or drastically cut the budgets of their police.

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TheMonkey

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#56
I also never said the whole U.S., but you changed the median. I've only talked about just cities.
And I said I'd have to look out up, I have heard specifically about homicides being up, but I've heard about crime in general being up in places. Especially those that tried to defund or drastically cut the budgets of their police.
Red flags.

Look. I’m not saying you’re wrong. It’s just that these are statistical subjects which should have precise answers that you instead commonly address with what you’ve heard or perceived. Honestly, it’s not helpful.
 
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#57
I also never said the whole U.S., but you changed the median. I've only talked about just cities.
And I said I'd have to look out up, I have heard specifically about homicides being up, but I've heard about crime in general being up in places. Especially those that tried to defund or drastically cut the budgets of their police.

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Dec 9, 2013
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#58
I also never said the whole U.S., but you changed the median. I've only talked about just cities.
And I said I'd have to look out up, I have heard specifically about homicides being up, but I've heard about crime in general being up in places. Especially those that tried to defund or drastically cut the budgets of their police.

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When did the entire state of CA become a city?

I’m not saying you are like this but it points to my problem w voters on both sides and it’s what led to 1/6.
Trump could not give 2 poos about any block of his voters. He doesn’t care about America 1st, Back the Blue, Evangelicals, or the Constitution. He cares about himself and how he’s perceived. The guy openly courted white supremacists, mixed them w Christian nationalists and from Nov4th to the morning of 1/6th poured gasoline. On the morning of 1/6 he walked up to a mic and lit the damn fuse.

Any whataboutism regarding criminal riots and destruction of property is mental masturbation to justify support for a traitor. He put his hand on a Bible and swore to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It wasn’t just an ordinary day. Those weren’t tourists. He’s a coward and should be held accountable.
 

wrenhal

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#59
When did the entire state of CA become a city?

I’m not saying you are like this but it points to my problem w voters on both sides and it’s what led to 1/6.
Trump could not give 2 poos about any block of his voters. He doesn’t care about America 1st, Back the Blue, Evangelicals, or the Constitution. He cares about himself and how he’s perceived. The guy openly courted white supremacists, mixed them w Christian nationalists and from Nov4th to the morning of 1/6th poured gasoline. On the morning of 1/6 he walked up to a mic and lit the damn fuse.

Any whataboutism regarding criminal riots and destruction of property is mental masturbation to justify support for a traitor. He put his hand on a Bible and swore to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It wasn’t just an ordinary day. Those weren’t tourists. He’s a coward and should be held accountable.
We were discussing the rise in crime and how it seems to be getting out of hand in cities where councils and mayors are trying to cut or abolish police funding. Here's an article reviewing what I was speaking to.
I've never heard of this website before but it does have lots of links to data. I clicked on many of them to make sure and they lead directly to sources from the cities themselves. Homicides, aggravated assaults, car thefts, and robberies are on the rise in a ton of large cities. Many that specifically have talked about cutting the budgets of the police.
Some of these cities have also seen a rise in sexual assaults and spousal/family abuse. I think those are more attributed to lock downs that were strung out longer in some of these cities, but that's a whole different bunch of stuff and harder to pin down.

Someone on here in another thread brought this up last year, and I concur (it's been a while and I wouldn't know how to search for it so I'm paraphrasing). The best thing is to get better cops by increasing funding, especially for better training. Less cops, and less comprehensive training is bad for everyone.

Article link if anyone has a problem with the one above.
https://amac.us/crime-surges-in-democrat-cities-throughout-america/

CNN article also discussing rising crime last year and the increases of this year already.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/03/us/us-crime-rate-rise-2020/index.html

And the reason I said California, is because it is from more than one city that I've seen videos of that occurring. San Fransisco, L.A., and Oakland just to name a few.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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#60
We were discussing the rise in crime and how it seems to be getting out of hand in cities where councils and mayors are trying to cut or abolish police funding. Here's an article reviewing what I was speaking to.
I've never heard of this website before but it does have lots of links to data. I clicked on many of them to make sure and they lead directly to sources from the cities themselves. Homicides, aggravated assaults, car thefts, and robberies are on the rise in a ton of large cities. Many that specifically have talked about cutting the budgets of the police.
Some of these cities have also seen a rise in sexual assaults and spousal/family abuse. I think those are more attributed to lock downs that were strung out longer in some of these cities, but that's a whole different bunch of stuff and harder to pin down.

Someone on here in another thread brought this up last year, and I concur (it's been a while and I wouldn't know how to search for it so I'm paraphrasing). The best thing is to get better cops by increasing funding, especially for better training. Less cops, and less comprehensive training is bad for everyone.

Article link if anyone has a problem with the one above.
https://amac.us/crime-surges-in-democrat-cities-throughout-america/

CNN article also discussing rising crime last year and the increases of this year already.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/03/us/us-crime-rate-rise-2020/index.html

And the reason I said California, is because it is from more than one city that I've seen videos of that occurring. San Fransisco, L.A., and Oakland just to name a few.
We were not discussing increasing crime in cities. This thread is literally about 1/6 sentencing and you start trying to justify an attack on the Constitution and Capital by making a generic statement on crime increasing. I had not seen any data supporting that so I asked. You tried to defend yourself and then claimed “you heard” or “you saw videos”. We never talked about mayors or city councils. In fact you brought up duffle bags. And that’s the issue w discussions like this.

Then you post a link to a web site you’ve never heard of that is blatantly biased to the right. I love how they write this article trying to stoke anger in its intended audience which is targeted as retired and conservative and uses intellectually dishonest data in an attempt to manipulate the reader. It worked.

They purposefully try to mislead the reader into believing this is a leftist only problem and has only happened since calls for defunding police have started. More dishonest is they try to get you to believe this is a Joe Biden caused problem. They lead off by blaming him. It’s their actual lead in sentence. Clearly no bias there.

But look at their follow ups. They actually in several instances point back to 2019 as a base case for crime being up and link only to 2020 data.

Crime in fact might be increasing but this article and many like it don’t actually explore any reasons or use Republican controlled cities or cities where funding has increased and their crime statistics over the same period as a comparison.

They lead w it’s Biden’s fault and then use data in places that doesn’t even include Biden’s 6 months in office. In fact the data is only under Trump.

By this article do we know if crime is up in US overall? Was the increase/decrease actually linked to funding increase/decrease?
We don’t. But the biased writers achieved their goal. You used it to justify an already formed conclusion.
 
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