Indianapolis shooting FedEx--Red Flag Law failed

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Binman4OSU

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#1
Kid passes background check to purchase multiple rifles after his shotgun was confiscated by police last year after his mother called police and warned she was afraid he was going to attempt suicide by cop.

Kills 8 at Fed Ex facility.
 
Nov 6, 2010
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#3
So existing gun laws weren't enforced. At some point that has to become an issue in the gun control debate.
This is where I think the NRA is missing an opportunity. They should be leading the charge when it comes to background checks, closing loopholes, enforcement, red flag laws, etc. It is in every gun owner's interest to stop every single one of these shootings.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#4
This is where I think the NRA is missing an opportunity. They should be leading the charge when it comes to background checks, closing loopholes, enforcement, red flag laws, etc. It is in every gun owner's interest to stop every single one of these shootings.
So we the people should use our own money to lobby the government to do its job?
 
Nov 6, 2010
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#5
So we the people should use our own money to lobby the government to do its job?
I don't know about that. What I"m getting at is everyone involved in this debate, from the most liberal gun control activist to the most redneck gun nut, want these mass shootings to stop. That seems like some good common ground to work with for there to be nothing but opposition.
 

Binman4OSU

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#6
So existing gun laws weren't enforced. At some point that has to become an issue in the gun control debate.
I would think Red Flag laws failing should be alarming to all Lawmakers. I would also think that it would be in the interest of ALL sides of the gun debate issue to first and foremost address the failure of a Red Flag law in this particular case as 8 people died.
 

CowboyJD

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#7
I would think Red Flag laws failing should be alarming to all Lawmakers. I would also think that it would be in the interest of ALL sides of the gun debate issue to first and foremost address the failure of a Red Flag law in this particular case as 8 people died.
The Red Flag law in this Indianapolis case didn't "fail".

It simply wasn't used. The Marion County Prosecutor failed by not utilizing its provisions.

"Marion County Prosecutor Ryan Mears said Monday that authorities seized a shotgun from the shooter, Brandon Scott Hole, in March 2020 under Indiana's red flag law, but Mears' office did not file a follow-up petition because Hole's family indicated they did not intend to petition to get the gun back."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...onday-updates-shooter-gun-victims/7282880002/

It is also notable that one side of the debate on Red Flag laws wants us to not have them at all...not to examine how they can be made more effective.
 

Jostate

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#8
This is where I think the NRA is missing an opportunity. They should be leading the charge when it comes to background checks, closing loopholes, enforcement, red flag laws, etc. It is in every gun owner's interest to stop every single one of these shootings.
Political activists groups aren't often known for looking for middle ground or helping their opponents in any way. The NRA has typically taken a "any gun law is a bad law" stance.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#9
I would think Red Flag laws failing should be alarming to all Lawmakers. I would also think that it would be in the interest of ALL sides of the gun debate issue to first and foremost address the failure of a Red Flag law in this particular case as 8 people died.
No doubt, and if we had political parties that actually cared about that, then they would investigate why the law failed. Unfortunately they only care about using the issue to keep us divided.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#10
I don't know about that. What I"m getting at is everyone involved in this debate, from the most liberal gun control activist to the most redneck gun nut, want these mass shootings to stop. That seems like some good common ground to work with for there to be nothing but opposition.
Obviously both sides want that. That common ground starts to crumble when we start talking about how to accomplish it. Common ground is the basis for the beginning of a discussion....very rarely the end of it.
 

Binman4OSU

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#11
The Red Flag law in this Indianapolis case didn't "fail".

It simply wasn't used. The Marion County Prosecutor failed by not utilizing its provisions.

"Marion County Prosecutor Ryan Mears said Monday that authorities seized a shotgun from the shooter, Brandon Scott Hole, in March 2020 under Indiana's red flag law, but Mears' office did not file a follow-up petition because Hole's family indicated they did not intend to petition to get the gun back."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...onday-updates-shooter-gun-victims/7282880002/

It is also notable that one side of the debate on Red Flag laws wants us to not have them at all...not to examine how they can be made more effective.
I would call it a failure...but most call it a loophole... when there is a law that is supposed to prevent potential gun violence acts by restricting access to guns..and the entire thing can be circumvented by saying...ohh we don't want the original gun back

How is it of any protection or make any sense...in a law that basically says "hey, we are taking your gun away because you are a danger to yourself and others with it, but since you don't want it back.. We won't stop you from buying more"
 
Nov 8, 2007
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#12
I would call it a failure...but most call it a loophole... when there is a law that is supposed to prevent potential gun violence acts by restricting access to guns..and the entire thing can be circumvented by saying...ohh we don't want the original gun back

How is it of any protection or make any sense...in a law that basically says "hey, we are taking your gun away because you are a danger to yourself and others with it, but since you don't want it back.. We won't stop you from buying more"
I see it as just laziness on the DA's part. The family didn't want the gun back, so why spend that 10 minutes filing the paperwork? In reality, probably not even 10 minutes because I would wager that the DA's office already has the form ready to go, just need to paste the correct name and case number on it.

This is a huge failure, and we see it all across the country. Right now, I have seen so many political leaders in Oklahoma railing against the SCOTUS because of McGirt...but our own apathy is why that got so out of hand. If we actually hold our "leaders" accountable, we would see a lot less laziness out of them.
 

CowboyJD

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#13
I would call it a failure...but most call it a loophole... when there is a law that is supposed to prevent potential gun violence acts by restricting access to guns..and the entire thing can be circumvented by saying...ohh we don't want the original gun back

How is it of any protection or make any sense...in a law that basically says "hey, we are taking your gun away because you are a danger to yourself and others with it, but since you don't want it back.. We won't stop you from buying more"
I wouldn't call it a failure or a loophole of the statute, I would call it a failure by the prosecutor to protect the citizens of his jurisdiction by not using his authority.

It can't be circumvented by saying we don't want the original gun back if the prosecutor actually bothers to file the petition.

Furthermore, if the prosecutor actually files and wins the petition in that case, he would have been stopped from buying more.

Saying that "the law failed" when in fact the "prosecutor failed to use the law" plays right in to the next step of the specious argument of "therefore we shouldn't have any such laws because they don't work anyway".
 

CocoCincinnati

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#14
Saying that "the law failed" when in fact the "prosecutor failed to use the law" plays right in to the next step of the specious argument of "therefore we shouldn't have any such laws because they don't work anyway".
The argument that I've seen is that we shouldn't pass MORE laws until the existing laws are being enforced. Regardless of how you want to phrase this specific instance, the argument is valid.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#15
I'm reminded of the Baltimore discussion a few weeks back about how DA's have discretion on how to enforce, or not enforce, the law. Ironic that we have such a glaring example of what can happen if they choose not to. It's up to the voters in Indianapolis to decide how they feel, just like it was with the voters in Baltimore, right?
 
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Binman4OSU

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#16
I'm reminded of the Baltimore discussion a few weeks back about how DA's have discretion on how to enforce, or not enforce, the law. Ironic that we have such a glaring example of what can happen if they choose not to. It's up to the voters in Indianapolis to decide how they feel, just like it was with the voters in Baltimore, right?
IMHO....Red Flag laws injunctions at a min should require that all gun confiscation events be reported by the DA to the State...but allow the DA to file a decision on Public Record on why they did or did not move forward to enforce the Red Flag law after confiscation of firearms from an individual at the time of confiscation.

This way if that individual does something stupid later, then the DA can be held accountable for their decision making

If there is a process to hold the DA publicly accountable for their decision to enforce or not enforce the law, it may encourage them to not be lazy with the law...specifically for Red Flag laws
 

Binman4OSU

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It is also begin to look more like this was a hate crime. Police announced today the shooter had an online presence viewing White Supremacist's web sites and material online for about a year prior to this shooting. Most of his victims were Sikh's
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#18
From what I've read, this individual hadn't made any threats. He didn't have a history of violence or mental illness. He got flagged for making comments about suicide. He was investigated by the FBI, and they concluded that he didn't pose a sufficient threat to warrant further restraint. The prosecutor could've pushed this issue, but my guess is that he didn't believe he would be successful. I don't think the law failed, this just illustrates its limitations.

https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Jake_Laird_Law_Summary.pdf
DANGEROUS PERSON (IC 35-47-14-1)
- An individual who presents an imminent risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual; or
- An individual who may present a risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual in the future and the individual:
- Has a mental illness (as defined in IC 12-7-2-130) that may be controlled by medication, and has not demonstrated a pattern of voluntarily and consistently taking the individual's medication while not under supervision; or
- Is the subject of documented evidence that would give rise to a reasonable belief that the individual has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...unknown-workplace-violence-column/7278063002/
Law enforcement had dealt with Hole back in March of 2020. Deeply concerned about her son’s well-being, Hole’s mother had contacted the authorities, requesting an evaluation of his psychological fitness. The mental health check resulted in the young man’s hospitalization and confiscation of his shotgun. After completing its investigation, the FBI later concluded that Hole did not pose a sufficient threat to warrant further restraint, allowing him legally to purchase the two semiautomatic rifles used in Thursday’s shooting.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#19
It is also begin to look more like this was a hate crime. Police announced today the shooter had an online presence viewing White Supremacist's web sites and material online for about a year prior to this shooting. Most of his victims were Sikh's
He also was apparently a huge fan of My Little Ponly (I am not making that up). And posted on a message board, the same day of the shooting, that he hoped to meet his favorite My Little Pony character soon.

I think he is stone-cold looney.
 

Binman4OSU

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#20
He also was apparently a huge fan of My Little Ponly (I am not making that up). And posted on a message board, the same day of the shooting, that he hoped to meet his favorite My Little Pony character soon.

I think he is stone-cold looney.
They are called Bronies. and they even have their own conventions where they dress up as their favorite My Little Pony Char.

They have had a real issue with White Nationalist and Nazis amongst their ranks over the last couple of years as well

Here is an article about that very topic from June 2020

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...le-pony-nazi-4chan-black-lives-matter/613348/

“Derpibooru became a playground for the right-wing posters [from /mlp/] who could upload their art,” Blake Henry, a 27-year-old musician and a My Little Pony fan—known as Wootmaster in fandom spaces—told me. Around the same time, a blog called My Nationalist Pony started attracting a readership. Its author, who was known only as Buttercup Dew, wrote at length about My Little Pony as a subculture—“as implicitly white as NASCAR, country music, and the Republican Party”—that could be used to spread white-nationalist ideas. The show became an alt-right in-joke, and stayed that way, spreading, for a time, to the little-known white-nationalist spaces on Tumblr as well.

Now the real world and Equestria are colliding. Over the past few weeks, some My Little Pony fans have mocked the protests with racist fan art, most of which was posted to Derpibooru, then massively upvoted by /mlp/ users. One much-discussed image was a pony version of a white-nationalist meme that circulated after the launch of a SpaceX rocket to the International Space Station: a photo of the two white astronauts side by side with a photo of black protesters “rioting.”
 
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