VOTE! Election thread

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What will be the results of todays vote?

  • Trump wins big

    Votes: 11 14.1%
  • Trump wins small

    Votes: 12 15.4%
  • No decision by tomorrow morning

    Votes: 29 37.2%
  • Biden wins small

    Votes: 17 21.8%
  • Biden wins big

    Votes: 9 11.5%

  • Total voters
    78
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cowboyinexile

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I wonder how much of that has to do with how little time Trump has left? Does he say the same thing if this happened in July, for instance? Idk.

I do think it's important to think about the implications of invoking the 25th. I think you have to think long & hard about what precedent is set & how it might be used in the future.

I would imagine that alot of lawmakers want him gone, but they also don't want to see the 25th weaponized in the future. Keep in mind, you had people calling for the 25th like 2 years ago. Love him or hate him, that was dangerously premature. The gravity of envoking the 25th should meet the absolute highest standards & be anything but partisan.
I think if it's bipartisan then it needs to happen. I agree that this shouldn't be weaponized and prior to the election any calls for it were grossly premature. However he cannot get a pass on this. We have to make it very clear to current and future generations that our leaders do not behave this way and we will not stand for it.

It's essentially a symbolic gesture at this point but I think it's necessary and should happen quickly before any more damage can be done.
 

cowboyinexile

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Did you watch the speeches at the rally? Did you see the tweet he put out minutes before the crowd rushed the barricades? Did you see his tweets and his message to the people while the capitol was occupied? What would be your red line for inciting insurrection?
His red line is the party line...
 

Binman4OSU

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Jesus...the crazies on that other social media site are saying anyone calling for the 25th Amendment is actively declaring war against Trump...not a nation...not a govt...but Trump. They literally think this guy is their God
 
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I think if it's bipartisan then it needs to happen. I agree that this shouldn't be weaponized and prior to the election any calls for it were grossly premature. However he cannot get a pass on this. We have to make it very clear to current and future generations that our leaders do not behave this way and we will not stand for it.

It's essentially a symbolic gesture at this point but I think it's necessary and should happen quickly before any more damage can be done.
That's fair.
 
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Check back here in a couple of years and we’ll see how the liberal policies you voted for are working out for you.
Haha, what do liberal policies have to do with the historic embarrassment that Trump has become? Classic pro Trump deflection.

You think the animosity toward him is unfair? If that is the conclusion you have come away with after two months of unhinged and irrational behavior and a continuous spewing of ridiculous conspiracy theories then you are being willfully ignorant. You are right, he didn't "make" anyone storm the Capital yesterday. But he did intentionally mislead them with false claims, intentionally inspire them with his divisive rhetoric, and then intentionally praise them for their actions. A victim, he is not.
 

StillwaterTownie

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I have more concern about what precedent is set for not having any consequences at all for his actions yesterday. What happens when a bad actor with an ounce of sense is in his position and knows they can go at LEAST that far without any repercussions? Unfortunately, the time frame for getting anything of the magnitude of invoking the 25th amendment or impeachment is probably not realistic considering the pace Washington moves.
Trump's sorry lawyer, Giuliani was even worse than Trump in calling for jury by combat. That was literally how it turned out. Trump likely won't do it but he should fire Giulini. Giuliani said they will be fools if wrong, but they're already well proven fools. I won't be surprised if Trump pardons Giulini.
 
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Well, we used to live in a civilized society, now Idk.

Anyway, just because the guy's not hanging from the Washington Monument today doesn't mean he's not getting punished. I mean, I completely agree about people wanting their pound of flesh here, but we're also talking about removing a sitting President. I don't want an emotional reaction here, I want a pragmatic one that also looks to the future & what implications envoking the 25th here might have.
I can understand that you want to take emotion out of it, but insurrection has to have consequences.
 

CowboyJD

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she is a Cabinet member. Only Cabinet members can invoke the 25th. so yes

Here is the current list of Cabinet members that would be the ones who have to invoke the 25th. Not sure if it takes a majority or all of them of what

Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue
Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency Gina Haspel
Secretary of Commerce Wilbur L. Ross, Jr.
Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher C. Miller
Secretary of Education Elisabeth Prince DeVos
Secretary of Energy Dan Brouillette
Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency Andrew Wheeler
Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar
Acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Benjamin S. Carson, Sr.
Secretary of the Interior David Bernhardt
Secretary of Labor Eugene Scalia
Director of the Office of Management and Budget Russ Vought
Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe
Administrator of the Small Business Administration Jovita Carranza
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
Secretary of Transportation Elaine L. Chao
Secretary of the Treasury Steven T. Mnuchin
U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Robert Wilkie
Vice President Michael R. Pence
White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows
not that I can see. Just the VP and a majority of cab members is what it says. I could be wrong.

However, the fear is that if a Cab member resigns right away, Trump can replace them quickly with someone loyal who will not join the majority.

So the obstacle is, get enough of those folks to go all in on 25th with Pence, without leaving their seats so Trump can't back fill the seat with someone who will NOT go forward with 25Th
A more interesting question to me than the "majority question" is whether or not "Acting" Cabinet Members would qualify to be to determine majority and to vote under the 25th.

It uses the term "principal officers of the executive departments" which is typically considered to be cabinet members. Cabinet members are subject to advise and consent approval of the Senate before they are officially "officers" of the Government. I'm not so sure "Acting" folks actually legally qualify as "officers".

The other interesting question would be when Chao resigns....would a Deputy Secretary (which has also been subject to advise and consent approval)....become the "principal officer' of the department automatically.

Dunno.

Apologies. I hadn't brushed up on the 25th Ammendment lately, so I'm not as learned on it as some. I was confused by the calls for Pence to envoke it, but unlike Impeachement, the Cabinet decides.
No worries, the 4th Article of the 25th Amendment (which is what we are talking about) has never been used or attempted. There are a whole lot of questions that don't have clear answers yet.
 

CowboyJD

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I think if it's bipartisan then it needs to happen. I agree that this shouldn't be weaponized and prior to the election any calls for it were grossly premature. However he cannot get a pass on this. We have to make it very clear to current and future generations that our leaders do not behave this way and we will not stand for it.

It's essentially a symbolic gesture at this point but I think it's necessary and should happen quickly before any more damage can be done.
Given it requires a majority of the cabinet, Pence, and a supermajority of Congress to make it permanent, it would have to be bipartisan.

The interesting thing is that the timeline, if the Cabinet and Pence certified followed through with an objection when Trump sends the "I'm fine" letter to Congress....Congress wouldn't even have to vote.

Pence and a Majority of the Cabinet could keep Donald out of power until January 20 completely without Congress's vote.
 
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A more interesting question to me than the "majority question" is whether or not "Acting" Cabinet Members would qualify to be to determine majority and to vote under the 25th.

It uses the term "principal officers of the executive departments" which is typically considered to be cabinet members. Cabinet members are subject to advise and consent approval of the Senate before they are officially "officers" of the Government. I'm not so sure "Acting" folks actually legally qualify as "officers".

The other interesting question would be when Chao resigns....would a Deputy Secretary (which has also been subject to advise and consent approval)....become the "principal officer' of the department automatically.

Dunno.



No worries, the 4th Article of the 25th Amendment (which is what we are talking about) has never been used or attempted. There are a whole lot of questions that don't have clear answers yet.
There is an army of clerks and parliamentarians on staff right now that I am sure could figure out the legalities.
 

Binman4OSU

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Given it requires a majority of the cabinet, Pence, and a supermajority of Congress to make it permanent, it would have to be bipartisan.

The interesting thing is that the timeline, if the Cabinet and Pence certified followed through with an objection when Trump sends the "I'm fine" letter to Congress....Congress wouldn't even have to vote.

Pence and a Majority of the Cabinet could keep Donald out of power until January 20 completely without Congress's vote.
I've seen this floated as an idea. Basically like football. Take the air out of the ball and kill the clock until Biden is sworn in..AND in this case it also strips Trump of all power, including access to the Nukes
 

CowboyJD

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There is an army of clerks and parliamentarians on staff right now that I am sure could figure out the legalities.
The "legalities" are all questions of first impression with no binding precedential authority.

Sure they could make their best educated guess, but this exactly what it would be.
 
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I've seen this floated as an idea. Basically like football. Take the air out of the ball and kill the clock until Biden is sworn in..AND in this case it also strips Trump of all power, including access to the Nukes
I'm all ears to that plan!





Our POTUS and VP aren't working with each other any more it seems. Trump seems to be operating Rogue on his own

https://twitter.com/people/status/1347296045236105216
'People'??? Seriously? :facepalm:
 

CowboyJD

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I've seen this floated as an idea. Basically like football. Take the air out of the ball and kill the clock until Biden is sworn in..AND in this case it also strips Trump of all power, including access to the Nukes
I'm pretty confident that is a correct interpretation of Article 4.

Not sure it would be the best idea or whether it would possibly invite and encourage the possibility of further violence on inauguration day.

Just glad I don't have to make these decisions.
 
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