Critical race theory in Idaho

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steross

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#81
You obviously have a good heart and I know you are coming at this from the right place. I assume from your post that you think we should give these reparations to these farmers. The problem is that it won’t go to the ones that actually got hurt. I’m quite sure that blacks have been denied medical care at times as well right? Do you give free medical care to all black people because some were discriminated against in the past? It’s the same logic and once it starts there is no end to it.
I appreciate this as about the only post that isn't attempting to call me an idiot for a different opinion. But, your assumption isn't quite correct. I, like you, do not trust the government to get this right. I, like you, have concerns that the proceeds of any compensation would go to people with dark skin who have already gotten themselves moved forward in society and not to the ones that are actually still held back.

All I am saying is that I am comfortable knowing that this issue has far more potential answers than "all is fair now so all we can do is move forward." Sure, personally, as a financially comfortable white guy that absolutely sounds best to me. But, I don't feel like my life experience gives me the ideal model from which to be the arbiter of what is best for this issue. All I am saying is we should at a minimum listen to other ideas from people with other experiences and not immediately strike them down because we already know what is best. Respect will go a long way.

And, well, I work at the VA so yes I give free medical care to blacks;). But, more importantly, I have realized through education and self-reflection that I have (and to some extent still do) treat black patients differently than white patients. Not on purpose, I am not a racist by the definition that people on this board use. But, going by the definition that many black people use, I probably am because our experience makes us that way. We can all improve at this, including me. Step one is trying to understanding the thoughts of others even if at first you vehemently disagree. Which unfortunately on this board is instead often met with ridicule and verbal beat-down. Thanks for not doing that.
 

steross

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#82
If I felt like I was financially harmed by illegal discriminatory practices, I would seek restitution in court against the entity that harmed me. I would encourage others to do the same. I support forcing the USDA to pay out for their discriminatory loan practices. I don't support forgiving farm loans to anyone that isn't white, regardless of whether or not they've been discriminated against.

It's interesting to analyze what happened with the Great Migration. Black land ownership peaked 45 years after the Civil war in 1910. That would change a few years later with the outbreak of WW1. The war created a manufacturing boom in the NE that provided economic opportunity. Many African Americans chose to sell their farm to take advantage of that opportunity and to leave segregation behind. Redlining didn't start until 20 years later in 1934. I'm sure that redlining contributed somewhat to the migration over the years, but it appears that rural to urban migration occurred primarily out of choice. (I probably would've made the same choice in that position.)

BTW, I understand where you're coming from with your argument. The lack of generational wealth in the African American community due to slavery and oppression isn't fair. The problem is that the vast majority of people responsible for those things are dead, and it isn't fair to ask someone else to pay for their mistakes. So there isn't really a good solution to this problem.
The only real difference between you and me is that I don't feel that I can decide for this issue what is fair and what are good solutions. Seems to me that the group of people harmed should have a larger voice in that.

I have friends that fear driving my car. They would not risk getting pulled over in a car registered to a white guy like that. Now, maybe their fear is unfounded, maybe not. But, whenever I think "Well, I would just...." I realize that is what I would do as me, not necessarily as them.
 
Sep 3, 2010
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#83
I appreciate this as about the only post that isn't attempting to call me an idiot for a different opinion. But, your assumption isn't quite correct. I, like you, do not trust the government to get this right. I, like you, have concerns that the proceeds of any compensation would go to people with dark skin who have already gotten themselves moved forward in society and not to the ones that are actually still held back.

All I am saying is that I am comfortable knowing that this issue has far more potential answers than "all is fair now so all we can do is move forward." Sure, personally, as a financially comfortable white guy that absolutely sounds best to me. But, I don't feel like my life experience gives me the ideal model from which to be the arbiter of what is best for this issue. All I am saying is we should at a minimum listen to other ideas from people with other experiences and not immediately strike them down because we already know what is best. Respect will go a long way.

And, well, I work at the VA so yes I give free medical care to blacks;). But, more importantly, I have realized through education and self-reflection that I have (and to some extent still do) treat black patients differently than white patients. Not on purpose, I am not a racist by the definition that people on this board use. But, going by the definition that many black people use, I probably am because our experience makes us that way. We can all improve at this, including me. Step one is trying to understanding the thoughts of others even if at first you vehemently disagree. Which unfortunately on this board is instead often met with ridicule and verbal beat-down. Thanks for not doing that.
Fair enough. We can all do better.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#84
I appreciate this as about the only post that isn't attempting to call me an idiot for a different opinion. But, your assumption isn't quite correct. I, like you, do not trust the government to get this right. I, like you, have concerns that the proceeds of any compensation would go to people with dark skin who have already gotten themselves moved forward in society and not to the ones that are actually still held back.

All I am saying is that I am comfortable knowing that this issue has far more potential answers than "all is fair now so all we can do is move forward." Sure, personally, as a financially comfortable white guy that absolutely sounds best to me. But, I don't feel like my life experience gives me the ideal model from which to be the arbiter of what is best for this issue. All I am saying is we should at a minimum listen to other ideas from people with other experiences and not immediately strike them down because we already know what is best. Respect will go a long way.

And, well, I work at the VA so yes I give free medical care to blacks;). But, more importantly, I have realized through education and self-reflection that I have (and to some extent still do) treat black patients differently than white patients. Not on purpose, I am not a racist by the definition that people on this board use. But, going by the definition that many black people use, I probably am because our experience makes us that way. We can all improve at this, including me. Step one is trying to understanding the thoughts of others even if at first you vehemently disagree. Which unfortunately on this board is instead often met with ridicule and verbal beat-down. Thanks for not doing that.
I liked this post because I wanted to apologize for my post if they also made you feel "beat down." We agree there is a problem, just disagree and in some things, and agree on other solutions. We also likely disagree on weather or not the problem is being exuberated by politicians and media for political clout or not. That is likely our largest disagreement. Many of us fear an attempt tear down all the good results of Western Civilization to extract the bad. So, although we disagree on the extent of exacerbation of a problem doesn't mean that we still don't need to work on it. Point...we are much closer than you think on this...AND the fact that you are reflecting on how we treat others differently is defiantly something we should all do as we strive to treat everyone equal. I applaud your honesty.
 

steross

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#85
We also likely disagree on weather or not the problem is being exuberated by politicians and media for political clout or not. That is likely our largest disagreement.
Not at all. The difference is that I simply know that is what some politicians do on subjects and don't perseverate about certain instances of it like you do. Of course, you ignore other instances when it is to your favor. You ALWAYS bring that up on the subject in which you are on the "do little" side and ignore it when it is a subject for which you are advocating large change.

For example, abortion. Abortion rates in this country have dropped dramatically. They are much less than half of what they were in the past. It is far less common here than in the majority of countries where it is illegal. While, like anything, we can always do better, this has been a clear success story for anyone looking at the data objectively.
And yet, this is clearly a problem that politicians bring up time and time again to waste money that could be used to improve it further. We have politicians passing laws and going to court to waste tax money for laws that are obviously never going to make it given SCOTUS rulings. It is at the forefront of politicians webpages and campaigns. All of this is done for political clout, using your words.

And yet, despite your constant anger about certain politicians and the media, never once have I heard you say that the overbearing positions of politicians on abortion for political clout are a problem.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#86
The only real difference between you and me is that I don't feel that I can decide for this issue what is fair and what are good solutions. Seems to me that the group of people harmed should have a larger voice in that.

I have friends that fear driving my car. They would not risk getting pulled over in a car registered to a white guy like that. Now, maybe their fear is unfounded, maybe not. But, whenever I think "Well, I would just...." I realize that is what I would do as me, not necessarily as them.
Everyone's life experiences are unique. Those experiences shape the way that we see things. I don't know what it's like to be black. I don't know what it's like to be the victim of physical or sexual abuse. I don't know what it's like to be an addict. I would never tell someone that's walked in those shoes what they should think or how they should feel.

I'm very open to hearing differing opinions and ideas. I enjoy talking to people that see things from a different perspective, because it helps me to broaden my own perspective. That being said, I believe that it's wrong to blame people for mistakes that they didn't make, and I believe it's wrong to broad brush large segments of people. Those beliefs cut a lot of different ways when it comes to race.
 

CocoCincinnati

Federal Marshal
Feb 7, 2007
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#87
I've got to go the the gym but I'll leave with this.

Let's say you are a white coach and you are coaching a high school basketball team in the championship tournament and the other team, coach, and referees are all black. You have a good team but the game is definitely not going your way. Every foul call is against you. Every chance to call 3 sec in the lane is called. Every palming, walk, etc goes against you.
It is halftime and your team is down 45-19. Your team is dejected. Your best player has 4 fouls. They are doubting their abilities. The fans have been ridiculing their every move.

You are approached by the school's representatives who regret to inform you that they found out that referees were very racist and were calling the game against your white team. But, they have great news. There happened to be another referee crew, this one with two black guys and a white guy, who have agreed to take over and will call the rest of the game exactly equal with no favoritism at all.

Are you happy with that plan? Would the other team be happy with that plan?
I'd send Coach Yoast out to talk to the officials.

 

Birry

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Feb 6, 2007
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#88
The only real difference between you and me is that I don't feel that I can decide for this issue what is fair and what are good solutions. Seems to me that the group of people harmed should have a larger voice in that.

I have friends that fear driving my car. They would not risk getting pulled over in a car registered to a white guy like that. Now, maybe their fear is unfounded, maybe not. But, whenever I think "Well, I would just...." I realize that is what I would do as me, not necessarily as them.
It's pretty easy to decide what is fair. Just talk with your friends that are in these groups that have been harmed. Ask them what they think. Believe it or not, you can actually figure some of this stuff out, and not fail under the weight of your white guilt.

Every time I've discussed reparations mechanisms with my black friends, it's never ended with any tangible "thing". It always circles back to not having a good way to implement it. One friend said, "Reparations are kind of a joke. How do you determine who is black enough?" Another felt like "something monetary" should be on the table (she is a direct descendent of slaves, and knows their family history well), but also wasn't sure of a good way to go about it unless there was some documented family history to fall back on. But that would likely lead to a LOT of deserving people missing out if records weren't good enough.

Personally, I think the only fair way to move this forward is for individuals to help those who are less fortunate through charities, service, etc.... Definitely voluntary, non-government intervention stuff. The only real government solutions I'd push locally are more equitable funding for school districts so there aren't rich schools and poor schools within the public school system, and figuring out a way to correct gerrymandered districts. From there, it's just increasing time away from slavery.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#89
Not at all. The difference is that I simply know that is what some politicians do on subjects and don't perseverate about certain instances of it like you do. Of course, you ignore other instances when it is to your favor. You ALWAYS bring that up on the subject in which you are on the "do little" side and ignore it when it is a subject for which you are advocating large change.

For example, abortion. Abortion rates in this country have dropped dramatically. They are much less than half of what they were in the past. It is far less common here than in the majority of countries where it is illegal. While, like anything, we can always do better, this has been a clear success story for anyone looking at the data objectively.
And yet, this is clearly a problem that politicians bring up time and time again to waste money that could be used to improve it further. We have politicians passing laws and going to court to waste tax money for laws that are obviously never going to make it given SCOTUS rulings. It is at the forefront of politicians webpages and campaigns. All of this is done for political clout, using your words.

And yet, despite your constant anger about certain politicians and the media, never once have I heard you say that the overbearing positions of politicians on abortion for political clout are a problem.
A couple things, I'm glad abortion rates have dropped and I realize that politicians do this on all issues. However, this past summer was a new low that exceeded anything I've seen in my 55 years of existence. I'd feel the same way if people were destroying property and burning down buildings "protesting" abortion law, taking over blocks in cities, and attacking federal buildings. As an example I felt pretty much the same way about the people making such a big deal over the election and possible "fraud" swaying it...all you have to do is look back at my post on January 6th and 7th. Outrage is the enemy of us all and reasonableness is nearly always the answer.

If we look at the facts of a thing and make a reasonable assessment typically we can avoid outrage unless someone else wants to enflame it in us...that manipulation and those who sponsor it are a big problem in modern America.
 
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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#92
Wow, that is a great read. And it's why I think growing up in the late '70's and early '80's, in Oklahoma, I saw all different cultures just living life together. I personally don't like the word race. We are all humans. The same species. We just have different shades of brown skin, different characteristics given by God due to regions of the world we grew up in, and different cultures derived from creativity of the human spirit.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

TheMonkey

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#93
That really is a good read, but I was even more interested reading this article about the author. She seems like a strong, independent thinker who sees the issues from both sides and doesn’t think one group has all the answers.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/can-chloe-valdary-sell-skeptics-dei/617875/

She is critical of both, once writing, “Trump can’t take on critical race theory … he shares its fundamental belief that life is a zero-sum power game, that it’s okay to dehumanize your enemies, and that preying on people’s fears for the sake of power is fair game.”
 

TheMonkey

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#97
What did Jesus say about this issue...?
2 Revelation 4:17-20
And lo, I saw in the third millennium the Lamb of God seated on his throne. His feet of bronze and his eyes as fire.

He stood before nine whose lesser thrones were below the Throne of the Lamb. He proclaimed to them, “Hey, I don’t really understand Critical Race Theory. Can one of you guys explain it to me?”