Critical race theory in Idaho

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steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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#61
As I noted before, If I were the coach from the losing team, I would appeal to have the full game replayed. If that appeal was denied, I would use it as a teaching moment to show my team that life isn't always fair.

Consider this analogy from a different perspective. What if you were the coach from the team that benefited from the biased officiating? If I were that coach, I would want the game to be restarted out of fairness. What I wouldn't want is for the replacement officiating crew to call a biased game against my team in the 2nd half to "even the score" so to speak. Why would I want my players to have to pay for the mistakes made by the first officiating crew?

In a perfect world, we would be able to go back and "replay" history to make things fair. In reality, that can't be done. All we can do is make things as fair as possible going forward. It's easy to replay a half of basketball, it's impossible to replay centuries of history.
Let’s say you own a 20 acre farm. There is a bad crop and you need a loan to keep going. Your neighbor has a 15 acre farm and is in slightly more dire financial straights than you. You both go to banks. He gets a loan, you don’t. The next year he is able to buy your farm due to a bumper crop and now you work for him on his 35 acre farm.

This all happened because he is white like the loan officers and you are not.
You are now a somewhat poorly paid employee of a decently wealthy farm owner. You don’t make nearly enough to get out of bankruptcy and buy a farm. But, you are told from now on, fair is fair. Are you OK working the farm you owned previously given that in the future that isn’t supposed to happen any more?
Again, I don’t have the answers. All I am saying is as a person on the beneficiary side of the ledger, I don’t think me deciding what sounds good as the best way forward and calling any other opinions racist/ impossible/ etc is what is best. I know what I want for me and my family. I am not so self-indulged as I live my nice comfortable life to think that what is best to me is necessarily the best way forward for all. And Oprah, Ben Carson, Lebron and the successful black I know don’t change the data that is in all our faces for those bold enough to look at it without a selfish eye.

Oh, and don’t bother with your appeal. You will be deemed racist for broaching the subject of attempting to fix the wrongs of the past.
 

gogetumpoke

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#62
I don’t have one single problem compensating black farmers that were discriminated against. So far they’ve paid out a little over $2 billion in the Pigford settlement with another $5 billion coming in this deal. Now Booker is talking about gifting 160 acres to blacks that claim to be descendants of slaves as long as they are over 18. There will be no end to it. I have two relatives that work for FSA and naturally this thing is going to be full of graft and a nightmare to implement. It will be typical of everything the govt. touches with a good chunk of it going to folks who have no trouble paying off the debt that they signed up for. I’ve been in Ag lending for over 30 years and I can tell that there is absolutely no easier way to get an FSA loan than to be a member of a protected class. It is almost impossible to get turned down. In my 30+ years as a banker I haven’t had one bank examiner ask about redlining. Not once. Because it doesn’t happen. The truth is the income stream from a solid loan portfolio is what keeps a bank alive. It is positively insane to not make every single good loan you can get your hands on. We simply cannot afford to discriminate based on race. Not saying it didn’t happen but in this day and age, and for the last 30+ years, it’s pretty much nonexistent. Most people don’t seem to realize where the money for these programs comes from and don’t stop to think about the fact that the government doesn’t have any money that they don’t extract from the taxpayer. We should absolutely pay those that were legitimately damaged. Sadly that’s not where most of this will go.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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USA
#63
Black men.

For the record, who has had centuries of economic advantages in the political, economic, and justice systems of this country that are so intertwined that often people don't even know the advantages they got?
Man, the Koolaid is strong in this one.
 
Jul 23, 2018
107
41
78
106
USA
#64
I don’t have one single problem compensating black farmers that were discriminated against. So far they’ve paid out a little over $2 billion in the Pigford settlement with another $5 billion coming in this deal. Now Booker is talking about gifting 160 acres to blacks that claim to be descendants of slaves as long as they are over 18. There will be no end to it. I have two relatives that work for FSA and naturally this thing is going to be full of graft and a nightmare to implement. It will be typical of everything the govt. touches with a good chunk of it going to folks who have no trouble paying off the debt that they signed up for. I’ve been in Ag lending for over 30 years and I can tell that there is absolutely no easier way to get an FSA loan than to be a member of a protected class. It is almost impossible to get turned down. In my 30+ years as a banker I haven’t had one bank examiner ask about redlining. Not once. Because it doesn’t happen. The truth is the income stream from a solid loan portfolio is what keeps a bank alive. It is positively insane to not make every single good loan you can get your hands on. We simply cannot afford to discriminate based on race. Not saying it didn’t happen but in this day and age, and for the last 30+ years, it’s pretty much nonexistent. Most people don’t seem to realize where the money for these programs comes from and don’t stop to think about the fact that the government doesn’t have any money that they don’t extract from the taxpayer. We should absolutely pay those that were legitimately damaged. Sadly that’s not where most of this will go.
I have about a dozen family members who farm and either receive government payments and/or have direct or guaranteed loans. The Pigford, Keepseagle and female lawsuits were all full of fraud, and the current Biden debt forgiveness plan is also. In fact, the government has essentially invited everyone to change their race from white to any other, no questions asked. If you have any white guaranteed customers, it would be in their best interest to go ahead and get that corrected.
 
Dec 18, 2019
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Central Oklahoma
#65
I don’t have one single problem compensating black farmers that were discriminated against. So far they’ve paid out a little over $2 billion in the Pigford settlement with another $5 billion coming in this deal. Now Booker is talking about gifting 160 acres to blacks that claim to be descendants of slaves as long as they are over 18. There will be no end to it. I have two relatives that work for FSA and naturally this thing is going to be full of graft and a nightmare to implement. It will be typical of everything the govt. touches with a good chunk of it going to folks who have no trouble paying off the debt that they signed up for. I’ve been in Ag lending for over 30 years and I can tell that there is absolutely no easier way to get an FSA loan than to be a member of a protected class. It is almost impossible to get turned down. In my 30+ years as a banker I haven’t had one bank examiner ask about redlining. Not once. Because it doesn’t happen. The truth is the income stream from a solid loan portfolio is what keeps a bank alive. It is positively insane to not make every single good loan you can get your hands on. We simply cannot afford to discriminate based on race. Not saying it didn’t happen but in this day and age, and for the last 30+ years, it’s pretty much nonexistent. Most people don’t seem to realize where the money for these programs comes from and don’t stop to think about the fact that the government doesn’t have any money that they don’t extract from the taxpayer. We should absolutely pay those that were legitimately damaged. Sadly that’s not where most of this will go.
Where will the gifted 160 acres come from? They can’t just produce more land. Somebody currently owns that land today
 

gogetumpoke

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#66
I have about a dozen family members who farm and either receive government payments and/or have direct or guaranteed loans. The Pigford, Keepseagle and female lawsuits were all full of fraud, and the current Biden debt forgiveness plan is also. In fact, the government has essentially invited everyone to change their race from white to any other, no questions asked. If you have any white guaranteed customers, it would be in their best interest to go ahead and get that corrected.
Believe me, everyone in the state that currently has a FSA loan is proudly embracing their Native American ancestry as we speak. Whether they actually are Native American is irrelevant at this point because I don’t think they will be required to prove it.
 

gogetumpoke

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#67
Good question. My guess is that the government will offer stupid prices to their buddies and people they owe favors and turn around and give to anyone that checks the right box.
 

wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#68
So you would say that, blacks kill other blacks in larger numbers than whites kill blacks, is untrue. Am I correct in understanding your position?

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No, that is not even close to anything I have ever said.
In fact, just a few posts ago I was asked that very question and answered the exact opposite of the position that you are trying to give me.
Then why argue with me when I said it was a fact and not a theory, and never said anything about all blacks?

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gogetumpoke

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#69
Let’s say you own a 20 acre farm. There is a bad crop and you need a loan to keep going. Your neighbor has a 15 acre farm and is in slightly more dire financial straights than you. You both go to banks. He gets a loan, you don’t. The next year he is able to buy your farm due to a bumper crop and now you work for him on his 35 acre farm.

This all happened because he is white like the loan officers and you are not.
You are now a somewhat poorly paid employee of a decently wealthy farm owner. You don’t make nearly enough to get out of bankruptcy and buy a farm. But, you are told from now on, fair is fair. Are you OK working the farm you owned previously given that in the future that isn’t supposed to happen any more?
Again, I don’t have the answers. All I am saying is as a person on the beneficiary side of the ledger, I don’t think me deciding what sounds good as the best way forward and calling any other opinions racist/ impossible/ etc is what is best. I know what I want for me and my family. I am not so self-indulged as I live my nice comfortable life to think that what is best to me is necessarily the best way forward for all. And Oprah, Ben Carson, Lebron and the successful black I know don’t change the data that is in all our faces for those bold enough to look at it without a selfish eye.

Oh, and don’t bother with your appeal. You will be deemed racist for broaching the subject of attempting to fix the wrongs of the past.
You obviously have a good heart and I know you are coming at this from the right place. I assume from your post that you think we should give these reparations to these farmers. The problem is that it won’t go to the ones that actually got hurt. I’m quite sure that blacks have been denied medical care at times as well right? Do you give free medical care to all black people because some were discriminated against in the past? It’s the same logic and once it starts there is no end to it.
 

wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#70
It was true at one time that the #1 cause of death of young black men was other black men. However, these violent acts are committed by a small percentage of total black people. The majority of black people are not criminals and do not kill other black people.

I believe its also true that a white person is more likely to be killed by another white person as well.
And that doesn't make all blacks murderers. Even though steross jumped straight to that, trying to make some connection between that and how CRT paints all white people at racist just because they are born white and thus have privilege.

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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#71
I've got to go the the gym but I'll leave with this.

Let's say you are a white coach and you are coaching a high school basketball team in the championship tournament and the other team, coach, and referees are all black. You have a good team but the game is definitely not going your way. Every foul call is against you. Every chance to call 3 sec in the lane is called. Every palming, walk, etc goes against you.
It is halftime and your team is down 45-19. Your team is dejected. Your best player has 4 fouls. They are doubting their abilities. The fans have been ridiculing their every move.

You are approached by the school's representatives who regret to inform you that they found out that referees were very racist and were calling the game against your white team. But, they have great news. There happened to be another referee crew, this one with two black guys and a white guy, who have agreed to take over and will call the rest of the game exactly equal with no favoritism at all.

Are you happy with that plan? Would the other team be happy with that plan?
As long as they don't turn around and call every ticky-tack foul against the other team to "make things right", then yes I'd agree.
Reverse racism doesn't fix racism, and doesn't balance anything out.

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wrenhal

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#72
Posted by a member of the team with 45 points at halftime.
That’s racist man...
I am NOT defined by “my team” (I.e. “the color of my skin” but the content of my character!). MLK had an impact on my view of the world. The freedom our ancestors of all races have earned gives freedom and opportunity to ALL BY LAW based on our own merit and character...And to make assumptions based on my or any other persons "color/team" is cultural division theater and in itself unknowingly racism. Bottom line it’s looking at ones race as a limiting factor...when it should not and is not by law...certainly we know the cases of racism that still exist and we are vetting it out where it does...but the demand for social justice worthy racist events outstrips the supply these days and what we all hope is that the supply can be totally gone soon. Culturally...we continue to fight this “fight” BUT now it’s being reheated by one side in a mostly successful mass emotional argument (fueled by unnecessary illegal riots) to gain temporary political clout despite the fact that the riotous behavior may actually be setting back race relations rather than improving them.

It is wrong to fight discrimination with discrimination or racism with the same. It is wrong to paint all Americans with a broad brush based on their skin color that they were born with no matter that melanin.

On your analogy...Don't you think LeBron James and Michael Jordan, despite their obvious “lack of privilege,” can come back despite the former refs?
Saddest part is, nobody is black or white. We are all, literally, shades of brown. We are all one race truthfully.

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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#75
If I learned anything from Napoleon Dynamite it's that Idaho has some racism. But that was really against Hispanics.
But didn't Pedro win? It's been a long time since I watched that.

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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#76
I don’t have one single problem compensating black farmers that were discriminated against. So far they’ve paid out a little over $2 billion in the Pigford settlement with another $5 billion coming in this deal. Now Booker is talking about gifting 160 acres to blacks that claim to be descendants of slaves as long as they are over 18. There will be no end to it. I have two relatives that work for FSA and naturally this thing is going to be full of graft and a nightmare to implement. It will be typical of everything the govt. touches with a good chunk of it going to folks who have no trouble paying off the debt that they signed up for. I’ve been in Ag lending for over 30 years and I can tell that there is absolutely no easier way to get an FSA loan than to be a member of a protected class. It is almost impossible to get turned down. In my 30+ years as a banker I haven’t had one bank examiner ask about redlining. Not once. Because it doesn’t happen. The truth is the income stream from a solid loan portfolio is what keeps a bank alive. It is positively insane to not make every single good loan you can get your hands on. We simply cannot afford to discriminate based on race. Not saying it didn’t happen but in this day and age, and for the last 30+ years, it’s pretty much nonexistent. Most people don’t seem to realize where the money for these programs comes from and don’t stop to think about the fact that the government doesn’t have any money that they don’t extract from the taxpayer. We should absolutely pay those that were legitimately damaged. Sadly that’s not where most of this will go.
Because rather than deal with individual instances, the racist brush gets broadly painted on all white people.
My ancestors were mennonites on my dad's side, and Irish on the my mom's. One side sought to flee religious persecution and the other came here as laborers to be abused while trying to get a better life than they had in ireland.
No slave owners in my past (we've traced both sides and they came over after the civil war). Both my parents grew up poor and grew up in western rural Oklahoma. I grew up with people that were Black, Hispanic, and Indian. As kids, we played sports together, we swam together, we had fun together. As we got older, we were in In band together, we parked downtown together. I'm proud to say that I know many that are successful in life. Some are democrats, some are republicans (even though they aren't white), and everyone still considers each other friends. We grew up in a generation (Gen X) that's always forgotten it seems. But ours was one that truly didn't care about race. It's sad to see younger generations literally pushing for wanted segregation and reverse racism as the way to solve a problem like this.

Should I be forced to pay reparations to former slaves due to the color of my skin? Should all white people be treated as if they are racists?

Oh, and I'm like 1/16th or 1/32nd Apache on my mom's side can't remember which.

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Last edited:
Oct 30, 2007
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#77
Let’s say you own a 20 acre farm. There is a bad crop and you need a loan to keep going. Your neighbor has a 15 acre farm and is in slightly more dire financial straights than you. You both go to banks. He gets a loan, you don’t. The next year he is able to buy your farm due to a bumper crop and now you work for him on his 35 acre farm.

This all happened because he is white like the loan officers and you are not.
You are now a somewhat poorly paid employee of a decently wealthy farm owner. You don’t make nearly enough to get out of bankruptcy and buy a farm. But, you are told from now on, fair is fair. Are you OK working the farm you owned previously given that in the future that isn’t supposed to happen any more?
Again, I don’t have the answers. All I am saying is as a person on the beneficiary side of the ledger, I don’t think me deciding what sounds good as the best way forward and calling any other opinions racist/ impossible/ etc is what is best. I know what I want for me and my family. I am not so self-indulged as I live my nice comfortable life to think that what is best to me is necessarily the best way forward for all. And Oprah, Ben Carson, Lebron and the successful black I know don’t change the data that is in all our faces for those bold enough to look at it without a selfish eye.

Oh, and don’t bother with your appeal. You will be deemed racist for broaching the subject of attempting to fix the wrongs of the past.
If I felt like I was financially harmed by illegal discriminatory practices, I would seek restitution in court against the entity that harmed me. I would encourage others to do the same. I support forcing the USDA to pay out for their discriminatory loan practices. I don't support forgiving farm loans to anyone that isn't white, regardless of whether or not they've been discriminated against.

It's interesting to analyze what happened with the Great Migration. Black land ownership peaked 45 years after the Civil war in 1910. That would change a few years later with the outbreak of WW1. The war created a manufacturing boom in the NE that provided economic opportunity. Many African Americans chose to sell their farm to take advantage of that opportunity and to leave segregation behind. Redlining didn't start until 20 years later in 1934. I'm sure that redlining contributed somewhat to the migration over the years, but it appears that rural to urban migration occurred primarily out of choice. (I probably would've made the same choice in that position.)

BTW, I understand where you're coming from with your argument. The lack of generational wealth in the African American community due to slavery and oppression isn't fair. The problem is that the vast majority of people responsible for those things are dead, and it isn't fair to ask someone else to pay for their mistakes. So there isn't really a good solution to this problem.
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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#78
You obviously have a good heart and I know you are coming at this from the right place. I assume from your post that you think we should give these reparations to these farmers. The problem is that it won’t go to the ones that actually got hurt. I’m quite sure that blacks have been denied medical care at times as well right? Do you give free medical care to all black people because some were discriminated against in the past? It’s the same logic and once it starts there is no end to it.
I appreciate this as about the only post that isn't attempting to call me an idiot for a different opinion. But, your assumption isn't quite correct. I, like you, do not trust the government to get this right. I, like you, have concerns that the proceeds of any compensation would go to people with dark skin who have already gotten themselves moved forward in society and not to the ones that are actually still held back.

All I am saying is that I am comfortable knowing that this issue has far more potential answers than "all is fair now so all we can do is move forward." Sure, personally, as a financially comfortable white guy that absolutely sounds best to me. But, I don't feel like my life experience gives me the ideal model from which to be the arbiter of what is best for this issue. All I am saying is we should at a minimum listen to other ideas from people with other experiences and not immediately strike them down because we already know what is best. Respect will go a long way.

And, well, I work at the VA so yes I give free medical care to blacks;). But, more importantly, I have realized through education and self-reflection that I have (and to some extent still do) treat black patients differently than white patients. Not on purpose, I am not a racist by the definition that people on this board use. But, going by the definition that many black people use, I probably am because our experience makes us that way. We can all improve at this, including me. Step one is trying to understanding the thoughts of others even if at first you vehemently disagree. Which unfortunately on this board is instead often met with ridicule and verbal beat-down. Thanks for not doing that.
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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oklahoma city
#79
If I felt like I was financially harmed by illegal discriminatory practices, I would seek restitution in court against the entity that harmed me. I would encourage others to do the same. I support forcing the USDA to pay out for their discriminatory loan practices. I don't support forgiving farm loans to anyone that isn't white, regardless of whether or not they've been discriminated against.

It's interesting to analyze what happened with the Great Migration. Black land ownership peaked 45 years after the Civil war in 1910. That would change a few years later with the outbreak of WW1. The war created a manufacturing boom in the NE that provided economic opportunity. Many African Americans chose to sell their farm to take advantage of that opportunity and to leave segregation behind. Redlining didn't start until 20 years later in 1934. I'm sure that redlining contributed somewhat to the migration over the years, but it appears that rural to urban migration occurred primarily out of choice. (I probably would've made the same choice in that position.)

BTW, I understand where you're coming from with your argument. The lack of generational wealth in the African American community due to slavery and oppression isn't fair. The problem is that the vast majority of people responsible for those things are dead, and it isn't fair to ask someone else to pay for their mistakes. So there isn't really a good solution to this problem.
The only real difference between you and me is that I don't feel that I can decide for this issue what is fair and what are good solutions. Seems to me that the group of people harmed should have a larger voice in that.

I have friends that fear driving my car. They would not risk getting pulled over in a car registered to a white guy like that. Now, maybe their fear is unfounded, maybe not. But, whenever I think "Well, I would just...." I realize that is what I would do as me, not necessarily as them.
 

gogetumpoke

Banned
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Sep 3, 2010
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#80
I appreciate this as about the only post that isn't attempting to call me an idiot for a different opinion. But, your assumption isn't quite correct. I, like you, do not trust the government to get this right. I, like you, have concerns that the proceeds of any compensation would go to people with dark skin who have already gotten themselves moved forward in society and not to the ones that are actually still held back.

All I am saying is that I am comfortable knowing that this issue has far more potential answers than "all is fair now so all we can do is move forward." Sure, personally, as a financially comfortable white guy that absolutely sounds best to me. But, I don't feel like my life experience gives me the ideal model from which to be the arbiter of what is best for this issue. All I am saying is we should at a minimum listen to other ideas from people with other experiences and not immediately strike them down because we already know what is best. Respect will go a long way.

And, well, I work at the VA so yes I give free medical care to blacks;). But, more importantly, I have realized through education and self-reflection that I have (and to some extent still do) treat black patients differently than white patients. Not on purpose, I am not a racist by the definition that people on this board use. But, going by the definition that many black people use, I probably am because our experience makes us that way. We can all improve at this, including me. Step one is trying to understanding the thoughts of others even if at first you vehemently disagree. Which unfortunately on this board is instead often met with ridicule and verbal beat-down. Thanks for not doing that.
Fair enough. We can all do better.