Critical race theory in Idaho

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steross

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#41
That's a much larger question - I'm not sure I follow your point.

And that aside, I'm not sure I agree with you: we can eliminate racism without living in a utopia. Racism is a relatively new thing; it doesn't have to be endemic. We created racism, we can destroy it.
How would you propose we do that in a way different than the people that also want to do that who you are saying are spouting something that is a dangerous path.
 

steross

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#43
So you would say that, blacks kill other blacks in larger numbers than whites kill blacks, is untrue. Am I correct in understanding your position?

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No, that is not even close to anything I have ever said.
In fact, just a few posts ago I was asked that very question and answered the exact opposite of the position that you are trying to give me.
 
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#44
It was true at one time that the #1 cause of death of young black men was other black men. However, these violent acts are committed by a small percentage of total black people. The majority of black people are not criminals and do not kill other black people.

I believe its also true that a white person is more likely to be killed by another white person as well.
 

UrbanCowboy1

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#45
Not sure I see how you came to that conclusion.
What we would call racism didn't exist until the 15th/16th century. It was tribalism or cultural domination before that - completely separated from race. The empires of the ancient world were absurdly multi-ethnic. Born in Rome and not a slave? You're a Roman. Even had a Black and an Arab emperor. Same for the Persians. Your skin color didn't mean or imply anything in the ancient world, it was all about where you were from.
 

UrbanCowboy1

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#47
How would you propose we do that in a way different than the people that also want to do that who you are saying are spouting something that is a dangerous path.
Ending racism or making strives to do so doesn't mean you have to reject reality and liberalism. You're making it seem like it's one or the other and it isn't.
 

UrbanCowboy1

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#48
It was true at one time that the #1 cause of death of young black men was other black men. However, these violent acts are committed by a small percentage of total black people. The majority of black people are not criminals and do not kill other black people.

I believe its also true that a white person is more likely to be killed by another white person as well.
Every person is more likely to be killed by someone that looks like them...because you're most likely to be killed by someone you know, and most people hang out and grow up with people that, you guessed it, look like you.

Whites by whites
Asians by asians
Blacks by blacks

And for a fun mix-in. The number one murderer of women is...their husbands. Turns out we don't hate everyone...we just hate everyone in close proximity. :D
 

steross

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#49
I've got to go the the gym but I'll leave with this.

Let's say you are a white coach and you are coaching a high school basketball team in the championship tournament and the other team, coach, and referees are all black. You have a good team but the game is definitely not going your way. Every foul call is against you. Every chance to call 3 sec in the lane is called. Every palming, walk, etc goes against you.
It is halftime and your team is down 45-19. Your team is dejected. Your best player has 4 fouls. They are doubting their abilities. The fans have been ridiculing their every move.

You are approached by the school's representatives who regret to inform you that they found out that referees were very racist and were calling the game against your white team. But, they have great news. There happened to be another referee crew, this one with two black guys and a white guy, who have agreed to take over and will call the rest of the game exactly equal with no favoritism at all.

Are you happy with that plan? Would the other team be happy with that plan?
 

steross

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#50
Those who think in racial terms and derive a form of power by division of the races on all sides of politics, ironically, are the perps of racial division of a nation. The best racial healing we personally can do is to be kind and forgiving to everyone no matter the color of their skin, politics, beliefs or otherwise. “Privilege” is an overused term devised to make one race feel bad, it causes mostly division by its overuse as a tool of judgement by one side on the another. This, when we simply should be attempting to give everyone “privilege” by our own personal actions. It’s easy to see that race is being used to divide us rather than unite us...we can disagree on who, how, and why, but it’s obviously being wielded as an effective tool for political purposes...think back to when the first major riots of the past two decades happened and determine if they were organic or organized. The height of outrage politics in our culture is the enemy of us all. Peace will come when we see this and dismiss those who stoke outrage.
Posted by a member of the team with 45 points at halftime.
 
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#51
I've got to go the the gym but I'll leave with this.

Let's say you are a white coach and you are coaching a high school basketball team in the championship tournament and the other team, coach, and referees are all black. You have a good team but the game is definitely not going your way. Every foul call is against you. Every chance to call 3 sec in the lane is called. Every palming, walk, etc goes against you.
It is halftime and your team is down 45-19. Your team is dejected. Your best player has 4 fouls. They are doubting their abilities. The fans have been ridiculing their every move.

You are approached by the school's representatives who regret to inform you that they found out that referees were very racist and were calling the game against your white team. But, they have great news. There happened to be another referee crew, this one with two black guys and a white guy, who have agreed to take over and will call the rest of the game exactly equal with no favoritism at all.

Are you happy with that plan? Would the other team be happy with that plan?
The very first thing I'm unhappy about is that I'm a white coach with a white team in a basketball game. The game was over before it started.
 

Rack

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#52
Posted by a member of the team with 45 points at halftime.
That’s racist man...
I am NOT defined by “my team” (I.e. “the color of my skin” but the content of my character!). MLK had an impact on my view of the world. The freedom our ancestors of all races have earned gives freedom and opportunity to ALL BY LAW based on our own merit and character...And to make assumptions based on my or any other persons "color/team" is cultural division theater and in itself unknowingly racism. Bottom line it’s looking at ones race as a limiting factor...when it should not and is not by law...certainly we know the cases of racism that still exist and we are vetting it out where it does...but the demand for social justice worthy racist events outstrips the supply these days and what we all hope is that the supply can be totally gone soon. Culturally...we continue to fight this “fight” BUT now it’s being reheated by one side in a mostly successful mass emotional argument (fueled by unnecessary illegal riots) to gain temporary political clout despite the fact that the riotous behavior may actually be setting back race relations rather than improving them.

It is wrong to fight discrimination with discrimination or racism with the same. It is wrong to paint all Americans with a broad brush based on their skin color that they were born with no matter that melanin.

On your analogy...Don't you think LeBron James and Michael Jordan, despite their obvious “lack of privilege,” can come back despite the former refs?
 
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Oct 30, 2007
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#53
I've got to go the the gym but I'll leave with this.

Let's say you are a white coach and you are coaching a high school basketball team in the championship tournament and the other team, coach, and referees are all black. You have a good team but the game is definitely not going your way. Every foul call is against you. Every chance to call 3 sec in the lane is called. Every palming, walk, etc goes against you.
It is halftime and your team is down 45-19. Your team is dejected. Your best player has 4 fouls. They are doubting their abilities. The fans have been ridiculing their every move.

You are approached by the school's representatives who regret to inform you that they found out that referees were very racist and were calling the game against your white team. But, they have great news. There happened to be another referee crew, this one with two black guys and a white guy, who have agreed to take over and will call the rest of the game exactly equal with no favoritism at all.

Are you happy with that plan? Would the other team be happy with that plan?
That's an interesting analogy. If I were the coach, I would appeal to have the full game replayed. If that appeal was denied, I would use it as a teaching moment to show my team that life isn't always fair.

It's easy to restart a basketball game, but it's impossible to restart the history of a country. All we can really do is make sure that the "officiating" is as fair and balanced as possible moving forward.

Someone born into a mid to upper class nuclear household starts life with the score in their favor. Someone that's born into an impoverished single parent household starts life with the score against them. Every race has people that fall into both categories.
 

Jostate

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#54
If I learned anything from Napoleon Dynamite it's that Idaho has some racism. But that was really against Hispanics.
 

steross

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#58
That’s racist man...
I am NOT defined by “my team” (I.e. “the color of my skin” but the content of my character!). MLK had an impact on my view of the world. The freedom our ancestors of all races have earned gives freedom and opportunity to ALL BY LAW based on our own merit and character...And to make assumptions based on my or any other persons "color/team" is cultural division theater and in itself unknowingly racism. Bottom line it’s looking at ones race as a limiting factor...when it should not and is not by law...certainly we know the cases of racism that still exist and we are vetting it out where it does...but the demand for social justice worthy racist events outstrips the supply these days and what we all hope is that the supply can be totally gone soon. Culturally...we continue to fight this “fight” BUT now it’s being reheated by one side in a mostly successful mass emotional argument (fueled by unnecessary illegal riots) to gain temporary political clout despite the fact that the riotous behavior may actually be setting back race relations rather than improving them.

It is wrong to fight discrimination with discrimination or racism with the same. It is wrong to paint all Americans with a broad brush based on their skin color that they were born with no matter that melanin.

On your analogy...Don't you think LeBron James and Michael Jordan, despite their obvious “lack of privilege,” can come back despite the former refs?
You don't get to define how you are treated by others based on race. It isn't racist to say that white people have had the advantage over black people in this country for most of our history. It is a simple fact. If you want to claim the race card for that, go ahead, but it makes absolutely no sense. It isn't making assumptions, it is stating facts. IF you have evidence that the cultural, economic, and judicial systems have treated everyone equal, show me. We both know that is false.

It is my analogy and it is a high school basketball game and I said the white team was the team that was down. To my knowledge, neither Lebron or Jordan are white high school basketball players. And, it is an analogy, not a real basketball game. Sure, individuals like them who happen to have an amazing talent can overcome. But, this isn't about NBA stars and neurosurgeons. This is about descendants of the black farmers who lost their farms because they were refused loans that were given to white farmer with worse credit. This is about the inability to black people to move into nice neighborhoods whose homes appreciated due to redlining. And, so on, and so on. Millions advantages that add up over time and create economic disparity. Not of the one shining individual, of the group.

I can't blame you as a member of the group that has had centuries of advantage to consider keeping that past advantage in place as the best way forward. I mean, if I was Bernie Madoff's wife and had lived off his ill-gotten gains all my life I would not want to give them up. I would be all for just stopping the ponzi scheme where it stopped and moving on with fair game from there. But, to claim everyone who wasn't advantaged is racist for pointing out the problem is at best self-indulgent and at worse true racism.

The incredible thing to me about all this is that I am absolutely certain that I do not know the right way forward. While every single one of you arguing with me seem pretty certain that the black people advocating for things different than you are wrong/racist and even take what they say and try to make it sound even worse (@wrenhal is the master of this). You would think after all the hardship that that community has gone through we would at least listen to them and have a dialogue like NZ did with the Maori. All I am saying is instead of being certain that your personal perception based on historical advantages is the right one, we should be listening to all sides, including the disadvantaged.
 

Rack

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#59
You don't get to define how you are treated by others based on race. It isn't racist to say that white people have had the advantage over black people in this country for most of our history. It is a simple fact. If you want to claim the race card for that, go ahead, but it makes absolutely no sense. It isn't making assumptions, it is stating facts. IF you have evidence that the cultural, economic, and judicial systems have treated everyone equal, show me. We both know that is false.

It is my analogy and it is a high school basketball game and I said the white team was the team that was down. To my knowledge, neither Lebron or Jordan are white high school basketball players. And, it is an analogy, not a real basketball game. Sure, individuals like them who happen to have an amazing talent can overcome. But, this isn't about NBA stars and neurosurgeons. This is about descendants of the black farmers who lost their farms because they were refused loans that were given to white farmer with worse credit. This is about the inability to black people to move into nice neighborhoods whose homes appreciated due to redlining. And, so on, and so on. Millions advantages that add up over time and create economic disparity. Not of the one shining individual, of the group. Most Okies were NOT born of generational money and have parents who didn't even receive inheritance. I think this is the difference between those who came up with these theories and us "poor" whites.

I can't blame you as a member of the group that has had centuries of advantage to consider keeping that past advantage in place as the best way forward. I mean, if I was Bernie Madoff's wife and had lived off his ill-gotten gains all my life I would not want to give them up. I would be all for just stopping the ponzi scheme where it stopped and moving on with fair game from there. But, to claim everyone who wasn't advantaged is racist for pointing out the problem is at best self-indulgent and at worse true racism.

The incredible thing to me about all this is that I am absolutely certain that I do not know the right way forward. While every single one of you arguing with me seem pretty certain that the black people advocating for things different than you are wrong/racist and even take what they say and try to make it sound even worse (@wrenhal is the master of this). You would think after all the hardship that that community has gone through we would at least listen to them and have a dialogue like NZ did with the Maori. All I am saying is instead of being certain that your personal perception based on historical advantages is the right one, we should be listening to all sides, including the disadvantaged.
Man the depth you seem to have shallowed the rotten pill of critical race-based shame thinking is somewhat astonishing...Why not just go ahead and sell all your things and give them to someone who happened to be born black because the way you speak you earned nothing but for being white, and blacks are incapable of earning for themselves due to their disadvantages placed upon them by your whiteness...after all, it was only your privilege that gave you what you have...despite all your hard work you wouldn't have been able to achieve any of that had you been Black. People like Neurosurgeon Dr. Bed Carson aside, because in your, and the race-baiters minds, they are just "outliers" exceptions to the racial disadvantages that your 'race' has created.

We are each made in God's image...he loves all of us and died for all of us...color matters not to God...only man sins and sees color...calling out people, negatively for their color that they are born with and creating division because of it is indeed the sin of racism. Focus ONLY and MAINLY on race as the main factor in a negative way is also racism (racism goes in all directions). Anything that highlights our differences in skin color, as a negative, is racism. Calming that someone who is simply born white is born into "privilege" is making a huge over generalized assumption based ONLY on race and is, in fact, racism. For example, a baby born of racist white hillbillies who make moonshine and cooks meth is NOT more privileged than someone born in the family of billionaires like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfery... This is why many of us think the current extreme focus on race is based more on stoking long held negative divisions, race bating, and political posturing, than it is on attempting to come together for the good of society.

As far as listening to the concerns of others, I'm all about that and have done that with great friends who happen to be black who have been pulled over and treated differently for simply the color of their skin and received other mistreatment...that's horrible and wrong...but sometimes their status are self inflicted by their opinion that others are in their way...sometimes others are actually in their way...that's a travesty and I don't have my head in the sand so far that I don't realize that a-holes are still out there and that we need to end their BS. What I'm pushing is for people to stop that BS and stop focusing on race and only race...to move together as races and to end the focus on it...creating unity and opportunity and freedom of ideas no matter ones race...Saying all Whites are "privileged" simply because of their skin color is the opposite way to go about that...plus it's just untrue. The truth is that we are all capable to achieve...saying otherwise holds people back. Furthermore, very few of my white friends were born with generational wealth, all of them earned what they have on their own and didn't receive inheritance from their parents who didn't receive it from their parents. Not all whites are recipients of generational wealth and thus the theory of white privilege doesn't really apply to us. Maybe this is why we find the term so distasteful.
 
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#60
Why is that all we can really do? If you were on the other side of this, would you feel that is all that could be done?
As I mentioned before, If I were the coach from the losing team, I would appeal to have the full game replayed. If that appeal was denied, I would use it as a teaching moment to show my team that life isn't always fair.

Consider this analogy from a different perspective. What if you were the coach from the team that benefited from the biased officiating? If I were that coach, I would want the game to be restarted out of fairness. What I wouldn't want is for the replacement officiating crew to call a biased game against my team in the 2nd half to "even the score" so to speak. Why would I want my players to have to pay for the mistakes made by the first officiating crew?

In a perfect world, we would be able to go back and "replay" history to make things fair. In reality, that can't be done. All we can do is make things as fair as possible going forward. It's easy to replay a half of basketball, it's impossible to replay centuries of history.