Covid-19

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Rack

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We shouldn't need 70% of the population to be vaccinated. We would need 70% of the population with immunity. Why are you assuming that immunity only occurs via vaccinations when we know that asymptomatic cases far outnumbers symptomatic ones AND that antibody counts can remain strong after people contract the virus?

Also, the risk (of severe cases) has always been very low for the vast majority of us....
While the risk of sever cases is low, I, personally know 1 person who died, 3 who were on vents, and one of those was a 26 y/o otherwise VERY healthy young man (we think he was immune compromised by shingles that he somehow contracted in December, but still my point remains and we thought we were going to lose him and his pregnant wife was going to have to raise their baby alone). Point being, how many are willing to take that kind of risk when we have a perfectly good vaccine that prevents it by about 99.9%, and why is your narrative still what it is?

Certainly I agree, we take risk everyday, but the risk people are taking by NOT getting the vaccine is as much about opening up, not wearing mask anymore and being subjected to lockdowns and travel restrictions as it is the virus, and your friends are basically choosing the latter by their stance on vaccines.

Bottom line, tell your friends that they are contributing to the fact that we cannot travel internationally or get rid of mask mandates by their stubbornness to not get the vaccine. This is just the truth. Clearly the logical argument of their health and the health of society isn't working for them so maybe try a different tact explaining to them that returning to "normal" depends on our percentage of people who get this vaccine.
 

Rack

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Just send out another stimulus check to everyone who gets the vaccine.. has to be big. :D
Free beer..
Btw, good news is that now everyone in all 50 states 18 or over is eligible to get the vaccine and the J&J pause will likely be lifted this week or early next. This "should" improve our daily rates which have slid from 3.5 million to 3.1 million since the pause of J&J. Oklahoma did a really good job ramping up, but we seem to have hit a bit of a slide...So, now that it's open to younger people we need to convince those that are younger (16 and up) to get the vaccine and to prevent what is happening in states like Michigan and Minnesota, which it will if enough of them get the shot. I'm thinking most students at Oklahoma State have gotten the shot already and I think the football team is pretty much covered as are other sports teams as this allows them to dodge daily testing? Does anyone have any inside information on that?

Additionally we are nearing a billion shot's worldwide and I think that number will drastically increase as Europe is FINALLY starting to ramp up vaccination with Angela Merkel finally getting her first dose of AZ today...others, at least in Germany and other Germany speaking counties will start to get on board.
 

TheMonkey

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Bottom line, tell your friends that they are contributing to the fact that we cannot travel internationally or get rid of mask mandates by their stubbornness to not get the vaccine.
Honestly, people don’t typically respond well to being chastised or preached to like this. One of the largest contributions to cultural change is when people see “people like us do things like this.” When they see people who are like them (same neighborhood, same church, wearing a MAGA hat, selling essential oils, watching Tucker Carlson, etc.) who got their vaccination, then they will consider it as something they should do. Instead of telling people they’re part of the problem, we can spin it as, “I got vaccinated so I won’t be part of the problem.”

It’s a subtle shift, but makes a big difference sociologically.
 
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Honestly, people don’t typically respond well to being chastised or preached to like this. One of the largest contributions to cultural change is when people see “people like us do things like this.” When they see people who are like them (same neighborhood, same church, wearing a MAGA hat, selling essential oils, watching Tucker Carlson, etc.) who got their vaccination, then they will consider it as something they should do. Instead of telling people they’re part of the problem, we can spin it as, “I got vaccinated so I won’t be part of the problem.”

It’s a subtle shift, but makes a big difference sociologically.
Shame and guilt don't work for very many things. The sort of basics of research on influencing people suggests the best starting point is to have someone you like be the influencer. To make it most effective, add in some trust, modeling ("hey, I did it"), and then straightforward information. For healthcare interventions, you then have to remove barriers to care. Anything that requires effort, discomfort, or costs money is a potential barrier.
 

Rack

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Honestly, people don’t typically respond well to being chastised or preached to like this. One of the largest contributions to cultural change is when people see “people like us do things like this.” When they see people who are like them (same neighborhood, same church, wearing a MAGA hat, selling essential oils, watching Tucker Carlson, etc.) who got their vaccination, then they will consider it as something they should do. Instead of telling people they’re part of the problem, we can spin it as, “I got vaccinated so I won’t be part of the problem.”

It’s a subtle shift, but makes a big difference sociologically.
I am talking to people very much like me...I agree with @Birry on a lot politically. I'm a conservative Christian who wakes up every AM reading his Bible and praying with my wife...heck I'm a full-fledged 'wingnut' according to @olderschool . I voted twice for Mr. Trump and have only voted for a democrat once in my entire 55 years of life (a former mayor) and it was a mistake in hindsight. I'm preaching to my own "choir" and that's why I think it's ok to be overtly honest and even antagonistic to those on that fence at this point. In fact, I myself, changed my stance on this vaccine because of fellow Christians who got their shot, mostly Doctors I go to Church with and are personal friends with and they weren't overly sugar coating in their language with me (especially not my personal doctor).

On a side note, if one goes to a church that doesn't challenge them personally to change, sometimes in very clear and even antagonistic language, then I suggest they change churches because personal growth and change (salvation and love) is the point of Church not just to get along. It's not loving to withhold OR gloss over the truth for too long...patience certainly has it's place and time...However, with vaccines being the actual way out of this...I believe that time is nearing it's end. Like @Birry and others basically said, it's nearing a time when we have to let those who make those choices to NOT protect themselves and others, keeping masking in place, not allow their local economies to open, and keeping travel closed, to suffer whatever consequences those choices cause.
 

Rack

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Btw, on a positive note...
https://www.afar.com/magazine/travelers-with-covid-vaccines-can-visit-these-countries
"Greece is one of more than a dozen destinations now allowing vaccinated U.S. travelers to visit, including:
  • Anguilla
  • Barbados
  • Belize
  • Croatia
  • Cyprus
  • Ecuador
  • Estonia
  • Republic of Georgia
  • Guatemala
  • Israel
  • Iceland
  • Montenegro
  • Nepal
  • Poland
  • Seychelles
  • Slovenia"
Benefits to the vaccine for travel are starting to mount...NOW the USA needs to get rid of the return testing for international travelers WITH the vaccine or a Covid infection with a release less than 90 days prior their travel.
Airline and travel stock are also starting to have a better outlook with these developments.
 

Binman4OSU

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Interesting update from a friend. They were vaccinated in Feb early on as they were super high risk. Their middle school aged child come down with COVID week before last. Assumption is the child contracted it at school and brought it home as they are still strictly quarantining due to mothers health. (child is experiencing several symptoms, but getting better slowly). Since the child tested positive it was suggested the entire household be tested....the mother who was high risk and vaccinated in Feb tested positive for COVID last Monday. But has ZERO symptoms. Father who was vaccinated at a later time tested Negative

So in this case, while they say you can contract COVID after the vaccine, but it will prevent the major symptoms seems to hold up very well in this case and the fact the father is testing negative with 2 people in the home with COVID, shows the vaccine has worked so far in preventing him from contracting it.
 

Rack

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Interesting update from a friend. They were vaccinated in Feb early on as they were super high risk. Their middle school aged child come down with COVID week before last. Assumption is the child contracted it at school and brought it home as they are still strictly quarantining due to mothers health. (child is experiencing several symptoms, but getting better slowly). Since the child tested positive it was suggested the entire household be tested....the mother who was high risk and vaccinated in Feb tested positive for COVID last Monday. But has ZERO symptoms. Father who was vaccinated at a later time tested Negative

So in this case, while they say you can contract COVID after the vaccine, but it will prevent the major symptoms seems to hold up very well in this case and the fact the father is testing negative with 2 people in the home with COVID, shows the vaccine has worked so far in preventing him from contracting it.
Did the mother get a second test to confirm? From personal false positive pcr testing over 14 days post vaccine back in Mid-March, I would HIGHLY recommend she get a second test if she hasn't....otherwise she will be counted as a break through case, perhaps, falsely.
 
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Bottom line, tell your friends that they are contributing to the fact that we cannot travel internationally or get rid of mask mandates by their stubbornness to not get the vaccine. This is just the truth.
You keep saying stuff like this but we don’t know what will happen even with a near 100% vaccination rate. I don’t think promising something that quite possibly can’t be delivered is the way to get skeptics to do something. I feel like this would just make those types of people dig their heels in deeper.
 

Rack

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You keep saying stuff like this but we don’t know what will happen even with a near 100% vaccination rate. I don’t think promising something that quite possibly can’t be delivered is the way to get skeptics to do something. I feel like this would just make those types of people dig their heels in deeper.
Maybe so, but it's frustrating to see people be so set in their ways on something that seems like it's the way out by most any standard of science, logic, and reason.

Also, we know what not vaccinating any of the population did to numbers in January. In January in Tulsa we had over 450 Covid Hospitalizations...Just 3 months into vaccination of our most venerable and health care workers we had only 60ish...we now have 40ish. This is the real world. Vaccines work in it, they not only slow the spread among our most venerable but are the key to opening our society. The Tulsa example lines up with the Israel example and others all across the world. It's the way out...Should we be "nice?" Certainly, but being blunt isn't mean when someone is walking into oncoming traffic.

Btw, if my being an ahole about it on this message board is dissuading anyone from getting the vaccine...please overlook my blunt rude insensitive behavior and get your vaccine anyway. Shots suck, but it's the loving, honorable, and ethical thing to do.
 
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TheMonkey

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Maybe so, but it's frustrating to see people be so set in their ways on something that seems like it's the way out by most any standard of science, logic, and reason.
What @OSUPsych (I assume) and I are trying to tell you is there are more effective ways of persuasion based on social science, logic, and reason. It’s frustrating to see you being set in your way.
 

Rack

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What @OSUPsych (I assume) and I are trying to tell you is there are more effective ways of persuasion based on social science, logic, and reason. It’s frustrating to see you being set in your way.
lol, it's all good...but these folks DON'T responding to science, logic, and reason OR they would already have taken their shot. Sometimes they only respond to blunt truth from people in their "camp" yelling to get out of the road! No matter how logical and reasonable one thinks he is...if he walks in a road long enough he's going to get run over...it might not hospitalize him or kill him but he could cause death to others in the accident or at least block the highway for others. Someone needs to shout to him to get out of the road...In places like Israel they are dragging them out of it, I'd rather we don't have to go that far.
 

oks10

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I bet if Q posted that the vaccines are actually intended not to protect us from Covid-19 but to protect us from a virus that our government is about to unleash as a retaliation to China releasing covid-19 on the world, they'd be lining up in droves to get it...
 

TheMonkey

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lol, it's all good...but these folks DON'T responding to science, logic, and reason OR they would already have taken their shot. Sometimes they only respond to blunt truth from people in their "camp" yelling to get out of the road! No matter how logical and reasonable one thinks he is...if he walks in a road long enough he's going to get run over...it might not hospitalize him or kill him but he could cause death to others in the accident or at least block the highway for others. Someone needs to shout to him to get out of the road...In places like Israel they are dragging them out of it, I'd rather we don't have to go that far.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2101220
Writing before the pandemic, Larson observed that “Vaccine reluctance and refusal are not issues that can be addressed by merely changing the message or giving ‘more’ or ‘better’ information.”

...dismissing their concerns often leaves them seeking someone to validate them. I suspect that’s one reason why correcting misinformation often falls short. Some people, for instance, may truly believe that vaccines cause autism. But for others, this ostensible fear may mask less easily expressed needs such as maintaining one’s identity, belonging to a group, or simply being heard.
...
Although the scientific community’s obligation will always begin with championing truth, the pandemic has shown that society’s health also depends on understanding why so many people reject it. While some trust scientific experts, Larson notes that others seek “truth” elsewhere — their experiences, perhaps, or “heard truths” from their social networks. The pandemic, then, has reminded Larson why getting the public to understand science may be insufficient.Maybe, she suggests, it’s also time for science to understand the public.
 

Rack

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https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2101220
Writing before the pandemic, Larson observed that “Vaccine reluctance and refusal are not issues that can be addressed by merely changing the message or giving ‘more’ or ‘better’ information.”

...dismissing their concerns often leaves them seeking someone to validate them. I suspect that’s one reason why correcting misinformation often falls short. Some people, for instance, may truly believe that vaccines cause autism. But for others, this ostensible fear may mask less easily expressed needs such as maintaining one’s identity, belonging to a group, or simply being heard.
...
Although the scientific community’s obligation will always begin with championing truth, the pandemic has shown that society’s health also depends on understanding why so many people reject it. While some trust scientific experts, Larson notes that others seek “truth” elsewhere — their experiences, perhaps, or “heard truths” from their social networks. The pandemic, then, has reminded Larson why getting the public to understand science may be insufficient.Maybe, she suggests, it’s also time for science to understand the public.
The best agent for change for an addict is often an ex-addict...they can speak to the addiction and it's attraction based on their past experience. I understand what you are saying, but those addicts also understand blunt reality and truth when it comes from one of their own...not psychologist nor scientist whom they don't believe or agree with on a myriad of subjects anyway and have no shared reality. I have a ton of friends who aren't getting the vaccine for various reasons, despite what we have seen in our church with covid. I understand these reasons, but I also know they are misguided based on the past year we have all experienced. In most of my communications with these people I'm using logic, reason, Christian creation science, and that doctors, scientist, and vaccines are here on Earth by Gods will in order to help to provide healing and the spread of the Gospel. How can we do international mission work if we cannot travel? That is how you reach people who are vaccine reluctant in my sphere. You convince them that it's God's will, not an agent of Evil and you get them involved in hosting vaccinations rather than contributing to the misinformation about them. The problem comes because so many in my sphere see the whole covid thing and the way it was handled, politically, as an agent for evil and division. Convincing them to get the vaccine based on doing what is right for others and how it potentially expands the Gospel is the best tact for them. I agree with you that I shouldn't get too preachy with them, especially in person where most of the convincing actually happens...I want to ask my pastor to advocate for vaccines, as he could have massive impact, but the congregation is so divided on the subject and I could see his hesitancy and assume he is. Maybe I could speak to that group of friends who are doctors and see if they have/will ask...
 

UrbanCowboy1

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We seem to be hitting the end of the plateau and are about to taking a big dive in cases a la Israel. Seems that once you get the elderly/vulnerable populations done you drop the case rate by a decent bit and the death rate craters. Case rate plateaus until you get close to 50% of the population vaccinated and then drops like a stone. Still early, but it seems to be the case. Check out Michigan, New York, etc. Increases in the 7 day average stopped about 10 days ago for almost all states and we are super close to the 50% mark (of the adult population).

Memorial Day could be our big "opening back up" holiday. Time lose to the quarantine pounds for the pool. It's not just the freshman 10 I've put on, it's closer to the...COVID-19. :oops:

Couldn't help myself.