Covid-19

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Rack

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This. It's North Korea so you really can't trust anything they say.

Also North Korea style lockdowns are effective. We think we did a lockdown 2 years ago but we kinda half a$$ed it so hindsight says it didn't do much good here. North Korea has the power to do things to their people that would make China blush. If they confine everyone to their homes and don't give a smurf if people starve and unfortunately all COVID are fatal then they will eradicate it.
How are they effective..evidentally they just delayed the inevitable by two years which is far worse than just getting it over with...no?
 

steross

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How are they effective..evidentally they just delayed the inevitable by two years which is far worse than just getting it over with...no?
Look at the death and hospitalization rates for the current strains vs alpha and delta.

Australia and NZ also did big lockdowns and have realistic numbers (who knows for NK). They are now having cases but are dealing with a weakened virus in an immunized population. They have death rates of 300/million and 185/million instead of the US with a death rate of 3000/million.
A 10-15 TIMES lower death rate has a lot of value to me. I can't see how far less dead people two years in seems far worse than just getting it over with and living through the hell we faced.
 
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Rack

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Have you looked at the death and hospitalization rates for the current strains vs alpha and delta?

Australia and NZ also did big lockdowns and have realistic numbers. They are now dealing with a weakened virus in an immunized population and have a death rate of 300/million and 185/million instead of the US with a death rate of 3000/million.
You don't think a 10-15 TIMES lower death rate has any value relative to "just getting it over with?" How is far less dead people far worse?
I'll have to do research on the numbers, but it seems we wouldn't have stood for those kinds of lockdowns, riots would have been far worse here had we been forced to lock down on that scale and i don't discount that deaths would have increased due to the destabilization of our country to that type of forced compliance. In terms of death at the time you might be correct, but in terms of long term damage to society I'm not sure. It's easy to look back and say this would have worked better...or that would have worked better. But the facts are that places will do things that large free countries with unified states that are set up to be "like" their own little countries in terms of law, just won't. Low risk tolerance and forced compliance to federal mandates and laws aren't the "American way," and never have been. Why not look at NYC who had the most radical lockdowns of anyone in our country and compare it to death rates in say Montana? Not sure you get my point here, but to me these aren't apples to apples...different places aren't the same, and we cannot duplicate situations in diverse conditions. I was simply saying that they are now dealing with what we dealt with in 2020...a full 2 years late...I'm also saying that had they dealt with this then they wouldn't be dealing with it now. Plus it's North Korea...so who the hell really knows.
 

steross

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I'll have to do research on the numbers, but it seems we wouldn't have stood for those kinds of lockdowns, riots would have been far worse here had we been forced to lock down on that scale and i don't discount that deaths would have increased due to the destabilization of our country to that type of forced compliance. In terms of death at the time you might be correct, but in terms of long term damage to society I'm not sure. It's easy to look back and say this would have worked better...or that would have worked better. But the facts are that places will do things that large free countries with unified states that are set up to be "like" their own little countries in terms of law, just won't. Low risk tolerance and forced compliance to federal mandates and laws aren't the "American way," and never have been. Why not look at NYC who had the most radical lockdowns of anyone in our country and compare it to death rates in say Montana? Not sure you get my point here, but to me these aren't apples to apples...different places aren't the same, and we cannot duplicate situations in diverse conditions. I was simply saying that they are now dealing with what we dealt with in 2020...a full 2 years late...I'm also saying that had they dealt with this then they wouldn't be dealing with it now. Plus it's North Korea...so who the hell really knows.
If you are going to make up scenarios in your head of the worse things that could theoretically happen with a national lockdown then of course that isn't going to work. The question you asked is "how are they effective" and 'why delay the inevitable." Well, there are places that they clearly were effective and delaying the inevitable allowed immunization and a less virulent virus and far fewer deaths. No place did worse. There is no "well, what if" or "it seems" to those facts. We don't know if we would have come together a la WW2 or 911 or if we would have stayed selfish because we never got the opportunity because of the messaging from our fractured leadership.

If the "American way" has become that much of our society is so selfish that they would rather have a bunch of their fellow Americans die instead of work as a community for the greater good we aren't going to be around much longer anyway. Look at history.

And, no they are not dealing with what we dealt with in 2020. It isn't even close to as bad.

If you are going to start claiming "science" like you did in the other thread, you really should start looking at things scientifically. Science isn't forming an opinion and looking for ways to show it is true. Science is looking at facts and creating hypothesis from those and changing your mind when the facts show a change. Sure longer term lockdowns looked possibly useless other than depressuring the hospital system when the virus was virulent and we had no immunization. But, those simply aren't the facts at hand now. Countries that delayed have far lower death rates than countries that took it on.
 
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cowboyinexile

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How are they effective..evidentally they just delayed the inevitable by two years which is far worse than just getting it over with...no?
Again it's North Korea. There is no way they avoided this for 2 years and if they somehow managed to it was due to every case they encountered being fatal even if the person who got it wasn't that sick.

And yeah if they managed to get this far without a major breakout they are better off. Two years ago we had no idea what we were facing. Now we know what we are dealing with and have vaccines to prevent it and treatments for people who get really sick. This virus killed a million people here. I'm not advocating their style of lockdown but to advocate letting this run its course after we saw what happened when many didn't take it seriously in the first place is insane. For someone who claims to be pro life you have suddenly become really flippant to a disease that has claimed a million lives. You should probably pray about that.
 

Rack

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Again it's North Korea. There is no way they avoided this for 2 years and if they somehow managed to it was due to every case they encountered being fatal even if the person who got it wasn't that sick.

And yeah if they managed to get this far without a major breakout they are better off. Two years ago we had no idea what we were facing. Now we know what we are dealing with and have vaccines to prevent it and treatments for people who get really sick. This virus killed a million people here. I'm not advocating their style of lockdown but to advocate letting this run its course after we saw what happened when many didn't take it seriously in the first place is insane. For someone who claims to be pro life you have suddenly become really flippant to a disease that has claimed a million lives. You should probably pray about that.
I do think about the people that died...you are right on this. It's not something to be flippant about. We humans remain human and selfish and I'm both...it's a battle.
 

Rack

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If you are going to make up scenarios in your head of the worse things that could theoretically happen with a national lockdown then of course that isn't going to work. The question you asked is "how are they effective" and 'why delay the inevitable." Well, there are places that they clearly were effective and delaying the inevitable allowed immunization and a less virulent virus and far fewer deaths. No place did worse. There is no "well, what if" or "it seems" to those facts. We don't know if we would have come together a la WW2 or 911 or if we would have stayed selfish because we never got the opportunity because of the messaging from our fractured leadership.

If the "American way" has become that much of our society is so selfish that they would rather have a bunch of their fellow Americans die instead of work as a community for the greater good we aren't going to be around much longer anyway. Look at history.

And, no they are not dealing with what we dealt with in 2020. It isn't even close to as bad.

If you are going to start claiming "science" like you did in the other thread, you really should start looking at things scientifically. Science isn't forming an opinion and looking for ways to show it is true. Science is looking at facts and creating hypothesis from those and changing your mind when the facts show a change. Sure longer term lockdowns looked possibly useless other than depressuring the hospital system when the virus was virulent and we had no immunization. But, those simply aren't the facts at hand now. Countries that delayed have far lower death rates than countries that took it on.
I'm not going to argue about it because it's not a loving way to treat it.
 

Duke Silver

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Look at the death and hospitalization rates for the current strains vs alpha and delta.

Australia and NZ also did big lockdowns and have realistic numbers (who knows for NK). They are now having cases but are dealing with a weakened virus in an immunized population. They have death rates of 300/million and 185/million instead of the US with a death rate of 3000/million.
A 10-15 TIMES lower death rate has a lot of value to me. I can't see how far less dead people two years in seems far worse than just getting it over with and living through the hell we faced.
Yeah. But let’s be honest here. If Australia shuts down nobody notices because they basically don’t matter. If America shuts down the world starves to death. The world doesn’t have the luxury of America shutting down. Australia and New Zealand can shut down because they are on our teat.
 

steross

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Yeah. But let’s be honest here. If Australia shuts down nobody notices because they basically don’t matter. If America shuts down the world starves to death. The world doesn’t have the luxury of America shutting down. Australia and New Zealand can shut down because they are on our teat.
Are you thinking we are talking about farmers not growing food in a shutdown?

Australia is not dependent on the US for food at all and supplies most of its own food and export a lot. They are not on our teat.
 

gundysburner

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Jul 25, 2018
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Yeah. But let’s be honest here. If Australia shuts down nobody notices because they basically don’t matter. If America shuts down the world starves to death. The world doesn’t have the luxury of America shutting down. Australia and New Zealand can shut down because they are on our teat.
It's a crappy comparison. Might as well throw other island nations in there too.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Are you thinking we are talking about farmers not growing food in a shutdown?

Australia is not dependent on the US for food at all and supplies most of its own food and export a lot. They are not on our teat.
One of the things I like about these threads/posts is they force me to go look up things for myself.

Interesting to note that while the population size is not comparable Australia looks to produce around 90% of their own food supply while the US is around 85%.

Also interesting is that according to some data I saw the US provides no foreign aid to Australia.
 

TheMonkey

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One of the things I like about these threads/posts is they force me to go look up things for myself.

Interesting to note that while the population size is not comparable Australia looks to produce around 90% of their own food supply while the US is around 85%.

Also interesting is that according to some data I saw the US provides no foreign aid to Australia.
Looking things up? You’re doing it all wrong.

First, you make an uninformed, flippant remark based on something as simple as American Exceptionalism, for example.

Then, when someone challenges your claim, simply laugh at them and offer no substantive evidence for your argument.

You act like you’ve never read ‘The Art of the Troll’ or something. Loser.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Looking things up? You’re doing it all wrong.

First, you make an uninformed, flippant remark based on something as simple as American Exceptionalism, for example.

Then, when someone challenges your claim, simply laugh at them and offer no substantive evidence for your argument.

You act like you’ve never read ‘The Art of the Troll’ or something. Loser.
You left out the part about the accompanying meme. Taste or offensiveness not withstanding.
 

Binman4OSU

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This. It's North Korea so you really can't trust anything they say.

Also North Korea style lockdowns are effective. We think we did a lockdown 2 years ago but we kinda half a$$ed it so hindsight says it didn't do much good here. North Korea has the power to do things to their people that would make China blush. If they confine everyone to their homes and don't give a smurf if people starve and unfortunately all COVID are fatal then they will eradicate it.
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