Covid-19

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May 4, 2011
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One of the best discussions I have seen about COVID recently. Bill Mahar and Bari Weiss talk logic. But it is logic that many people have known for awhile, but was almost criminal to say/admit.
https://twitter.com/clintolsen/status/1484808734442352643?s=21


https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1484868809416753153?s=21




And a great point by Rep Torres looking at the response in a different way. Great discussion.
https://twitter.com/embodiedsacred/status/1484769683471409153?s=21
That's still not fully accurate. It drives me nuts that people still can't think in probabilities and still just see black and white. You are still less likely to get it if you are fully vaccinated and boosted. The issue is that omicron escapes some prior immunity and spreads so rapidly that it raises the likelihood of both groups getting it. Here are some data out of NYC (London has similar data). The effect is clear even for just cases.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

Screenshot_20220122-175345_Chrome.jpg
 
May 4, 2011
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What if I replaced your comment "The number of scientifically illiterate adults in the US, is shockingly high. If one believes in a god and/or has a religion, fine. They're absolutely free to do so. But, don't be an idiot." with some other group....
I think you're confusing me with another poster. I didn't say that and I don't think you read mine.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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When discussing this, I wish people would quit using the word "stop" and start being realistic and using the words "limit" or "improve." A door lock doesn't stop crime. A walker doesn't stop an unsteady person from falling. And, no, the vaccines do not stop people from getting or spreading COVID, particularly omicron. But, they can still limit it at various rates depending on the particular vaccine, the number of doses and timing of doses, and the presence or absence of prior infection.

So, while the argument for the vaccine to protect other people isn't nearly as strong as it originally was, it currently has not evolved to "it's just about you" as Maher claims either.

As is attributed to Einstein:
"In every field of inquiry, it is true that all things should be made as simple as possible – but no simpler."
The vaccine was never sold to the public, even back in the Trump Administration, as the thing to keep you from getting Covid, it was ALWAYS sold as the thing to keep us from getting put in the hospital and dieing. Btw, I was very very sick yesterday, for exactly 24 hours, thought for sure I had covid...woke up this am like 98% better, now I'm basically totally 100% back...went and got a covid and flu test...both negative. Who knows, but that was a weird and scary day.
 

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
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The vaccine was never sold to the public, even back in the Trump Administration, as the thing to keep you from getting Covid, it was ALWAYS sold as the thing to keep us from getting put in the hospital and dieing. Btw, I was very very sick yesterday, for exactly 24 hours, thought for sure I had covid...woke up this am like 98% better, now I'm basically totally 100% back...went and got a covid and flu test...both negative. Who knows, but that was a weird and scary day.
Happy to hear you are feeling better!
 
Mar 11, 2006
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The vaccine was never sold to the public, even back in the Trump Administration, as the thing to keep you from getting Covid, it was ALWAYS sold as the thing to keep us from getting put in the hospital and dieing.
Maybe it wasn’t sold by the government that way, but it was by several in the media.

“Now we know that the vaccines work well enough that the virus stops with every vaccinated person," Maddow said on her show the evening of March 29, 2021.

"A vaccinated person gets exposed to the virus, the virus does not infect them, the virus cannot then use that person to go anywhere else," she added, “It cannot use a vaccinated person as a host to go get more people”.

Also, glad you are doing better.
 
Sep 22, 2011
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The vaccine was never sold to the public, even back in the Trump Administration, as the thing to keep you from getting Covid, it was ALWAYS sold as the thing to keep us from getting put in the hospital and dieing. Btw, I was very very sick yesterday, for exactly 24 hours, thought for sure I had covid...woke up this am like 98% better, now I'm basically totally 100% back...went and got a covid and flu test...both negative. Who knows, but that was a weird and scary day.
it absolutely was, Herd immunity was the goal from the outset, and I am pretty sure that in this thread I was told i was killing kids and creating variants because I am reticent about vaccinating my kids.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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it absolutely was, Herd immunity was the goal from the outset, and I am pretty sure that in this thread I was told i was killing kids and creating variants because I am reticent about vaccinating my kids.
You and I having a form of immunity that keeps us out the hospital was always the goal...No? The problem was lack of unity and politicization on covid. But, my understanding, was that the goal was always to reduce hospitalizations and death by herd immunity or at least slow down viral spread in order to keep hospitals less full. There is no doubt that vaccines keep hospitals less full and reduce deaths...For some reason I always thought that was the goal of the healthcare community...That's why I got the vaccine, to live as normal a life as possible, to travel, to help reduce the strain on the medical community, and to hopefully not be a spreader (that turned out to be nearly impossible in a freedom loving society, btw I argued daily for the freedoms that we pretty much maintained in Oklahoma the whole time). Anyway, maybe I didn't get the same message as you...but the one I got was MAINLY to reduce the burden on our healthcare workers and in that way get past the virus.

Btw, as far as kids, my ER doctor nephew in law got their kids vaccinated recently (December) but only because of omicron and the fact that it was going to infect so many people. Prior to that he was against vaccinating kids under say 14 or so but started seeing them pop up in his ER. I believe, you, as a parent, have the right to do what you want after speaking to your doctor and trusted friends. I do not agree with mandates on vaccines...while I do agree they were/are our best bet in getting past this.
 
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Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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Biden says people vaccinated for COVID-19 'do not spread the disease'

https://www.wral.com/fact-check-bid...-not-spread-the-disease/20053317/?version=amp

December 14, 2021
Biden doesn't know if he's coming or going...he's an irrelevant partisan, just like Trump but wearing a blue tie instead of a red one. The enemy of America's future is divisiveness and you, and anyone else who watches the "news" these days is unwittingly eating America's poison pill. It's time to pull back, realize the only savior for America's future is cooperation and understanding that is only made possible by the political center...not dictation and my way or the highway that both extremes sell in order to garner votes based on inherit biases.
 
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Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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Maybe it wasn’t sold by the government that way, but it was by several in the media.

“Now we know that the vaccines work well enough that the virus stops with every vaccinated person," Maddow said on her show the evening of March 29, 2021.

"A vaccinated person gets exposed to the virus, the virus does not infect them, the virus cannot then use that person to go anywhere else," she added, “It cannot use a vaccinated person as a host to go get more people”.

Also, glad you are doing better.
Well clearly Maddow was just as wrong as anyone who claimed that. Not sure why I never saw this message, maybe it's because that was after I cut off all far left and far right divisive media.

Thanks for the well wishes! I appreciate it.
 
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Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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Biden doesn't know if he's coming or going...he's an irrelevant partisan, just like Trump but wearing a blue tie instead of a red one. The enemy of America's future is divisiveness and you, and anyone else who watches the "news" these days is unwittingly eating America's poison pill. It's time to pull back, realize the only savior for America's future is cooperation and understanding that is only made possible by the political center...not dictation and my way or the highway that both extremes sell in order to garner votes based on inherit biases.
I don’t have a television to watch the news.

Myself, and others, point out the error of your comment and now I'm the problem? LOL
 
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Dec 9, 2013
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it absolutely was, Herd immunity was the goal from the outset, and I am pretty sure that in this thread I was told i was killing kids and creating variants because I am reticent about vaccinating my kids.
Interesting data from Science that shows until Omicron mRNA vaccines were 90% effective at preventing symptomatic illness that waned to 60-70% over 6 months. Then w a booster the efficacy was “boosted” to 95%.

Then Omicron hit. Current data suggests it is about 50% efficacy at preventing symptomatic vs 95 w delta after a 3rd jab. The problem in the US is that w so many unvaccinated and another large # not boosted and an open society Omicron is showing a huge # of breakthrough cases. It’s a lie that the vaccines don’t prevent illness. mRNA boosters prevent CoVid. Not 100% but still enough that if you are eligible and your dr and a 2nd dr say get it and you still don’t then either Darwin is going to be right about you or you are just going to be part of the problem. The data (not Tucker Carlson or Joe Rogan or Dan Bongino or the YouTube Gynecologist from OK or any other idiot) should be the driving factor behind medical recommendations. The data says vaccines prevent CoVid.

Pfizer & Moderna are still 50% effective at preventing symptomatic illness. For a technology that’s just been in circulation for 13 months and a variant that’s been here for all of 2 months this is literally a miracle.

FoxNews or MSNBC or Joe or Trump only convince the simple minded and hateful how to approach being vaccinated.

Data does not lie. Numbers are the key. If you haven’t had your 1st shot then roll up your sleeve. If you haven’t been boosted then roll up your sleeve. At this point the only way out is science and looking out for one another.

Edit: Cody51 my post was not to call you out but to use your post as a spring board to show that data says the vaccines still are doing what they were intended to do.
 
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May 4, 2011
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Charleston, SC
Interesting data from Science that shows until Omicron mRNA vaccines were 90% effective at preventing symptomatic illness that waned to 60-70% over 6 months. Then w a booster the efficacy was “boosted” to 95%.

Then Omicron hit. Current data suggests it is about 50% efficacy at preventing symptomatic vs 95 w delta after a 3rd jab. The problem in the US is that w so many unvaccinated and another large # not boosted and an open society Omicron is showing a huge # of breakthrough cases. It’s a lie that the vaccines don’t prevent illness. mRNA boosters prevent CoVid. Not 100% but still enough that if you are eligible and your dr and a 2nd dr say get it and you still don’t then either Darwin is going to be right about you or you are just going to be part of the problem. The data (not Tucker Carlson or Joe Rogan or Dan Bongino or the YouTube Gynecologist from OK or any other idiot) should be the driving factor behind medical recommendations. The data says vaccines prevent CoVid.

Pfizer & Moderna are still 50% effective at preventing symptomatic illness. For a technology that’s just been in circulation for 13 months and a variant that’s been here for all of 2 months this is literally a miracle.

FoxNews or MSNBC or Joe or Trump only convince the simple minded and hateful how to approach being vaccinated.

Data does not lie. Numbers are the key. If you haven’t had your 1st shot then roll up your sleeve. If you haven’t been boosted then roll up your sleeve. At this point the only way out is science and looking out for one another.
Pretty sure he's vaccinated and worried about unknown side effects for kids. I would guess it's similar to the dilemma of feeling worse about harm that comes from action vs inaction (remember the train dilemma where you do nothing and two people die or you flip the switch and you kill one person). Add that to the protectiveness we all have of our kids and it's understandable. I disagree, but can empathize. Data already suggest that the side effects of COVID are worse than those of the vaccine, whether we're talking rights of myocarditis or clots, let alone anything that could land you in the hospital. There's still the lingering concern of "what if a side effect emerges in a couple of years that we didn't know about?". Again, understandable, but misses the very real possibility that the same is true of COVID itself, especially for a naive immune system. So, we're back to questions of feeling worse about potential harms from action vs inaction.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Pretty sure he's vaccinated and worried about unknown side effects for kids. I would guess it's similar to the dilemma of feeling worse about harm that comes from action vs inaction (remember the train dilemma where you do nothing and two people die or you flip the switch and you kill one person). Add that to the protectiveness we all have of our kids and it's understandable. I disagree, but can empathize. Data already suggest that the side effects of COVID are worse than those of the vaccine, whether we're talking rights of myocarditis or clots, let alone anything that could land you in the hospital. There's still the lingering concern of "what if a side effect emerges in a couple of years that we didn't know about?". Again, understandable, but misses the very real possibility that the same is true of COVID itself, especially for a naive immune system. So, we're back to questions of feeling worse about potential harms from action vs inaction.
Oh I truly understand. I’m glad my kids are grown and able to make this decision. I would not want to be in anyone’s shoes w kids. A poster a while back indicated his child’s dr was recommending him to wait on getting one of his children vaccinated. My heart sunk for that family. That is a huge burden. We truly are failing an entire generation of children in so many ways.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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Omicron is showing a huge # of breakthrough cases. It’s a lie that the vaccines don’t prevent illness. mRNA boosters prevent CoVid.
The data says vaccines prevent CoVid
.
Your first sentence acknowledges breakthrough cases. Then you have two other sentences in that same paragraph directly disputing your first sentence (unless I am misreading).

Can we agree that:
1) COVID vaccines have been shown to be very effective providing protection against the virus
2) Vaccines efficacy appears to wane over time.
3) Vaccines have been shown to be extremely effective of reducing illness when an individual tests positive
4) Vaccinated and non-vaccinated people can get and spread the virus
5) While we should absolutely continue promoting the vaccine and booster (and insuring they are readily available and easy to get), and we need to continue educating people about the importance of getting the multiple jabs for the health of the individual and their family….we should worry about ourselves and stop worrying about the vaccination status of others
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Your first sentence acknowledges breakthrough cases. Then you have two other sentences in that same paragraph directly disputing your first sentence (unless I am misreading).

Can we agree that:
1) COVID vaccines have been shown to be very effective providing protection against the virus
2) Vaccines efficacy appears to wane over time.
3) Vaccines have been shown to be extremely effective of reducing illness when an individual tests positive
4) Vaccinated and non-vaccinated people can get and spread the virus
5) While we should absolutely continue promoting the vaccine and booster (and insuring they are readily available and easy to get), and we need to continue educating people about the importance of getting the multiple jabs for the health of the individual and their family….we should worry about ourselves and stop worrying about the vaccination status of others
Where do I say that vaccines 100% prevent illness. We have breakthrough cases bc not enough people are vaccinated and not enough people are boosted. This is allowing a variant to spread haphazard resulting in infection in responsible people who are boosted. It’s a simple #s game. The more unvaccinated people that get this at the same time overwhelms our hospitals and makes it more likely that someone who is boosted gets it.

And you are flat out wrong about not worrying about the vaccination status of others. You even contradict yourself. Why should I do #5 if you tell me not to worry about someone else? Vaccines have proven to prevent deaths in over 90% of those vaccinated but infected. Since 1/1/21 when vaccinations started becoming available the US has seen over 500,000 deaths from CoVid. If all of them had been vaccinated that’s over 450,000 Americans still alive. Or enough people to fill up BPS 9x. At half of them being vaccinated that’s still 250,000. When my wife can’t go out in public or church bc others won’t get vaccinated that becomes my concern. When kids can’t go to school and learn from trained professionals, that’s my concern. When healthcare professionals are working countless endless hours, that’s my concern. What do you think is going to happen in the next 5-10 yrs w healthcare and teachers? Do you think we get more people in those jobs or less? When my insurance rates go up or when my taxes go up to pay for all this, is that not my concern?

Saying to stop worrying about vaccination status of others is quite literally the most cowardice and chicken sh!# approach. I get not beating someone over the head or shaming them in one on one settings. For the most part all of us on here or anonymous keyboard thumpers but to say to quit worrying is not pro life. It’s not conservative. And it’s just the lame easy way out in dealing with someone you should care about whether they are family, friend or stranger.