Covid-19

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wrenhal

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/15/florida-landlord-requiring-covid-vaccine-proof

Florida landlord says tenants must get coronavirus vaccine: ‘You don’t want to get vaccinated? You have to move.’

Jasmine Irby was leaving her two-bedroom apartment in South Florida last month when she noticed a letter from the management company taped to her door.
It read: “As of August 15th, all new tenants must show proof of vaccination before moving in. … Existing tenants must show proof of vaccination before leases are renewed.” The policy, the notice stated, also applied to building employees.

Irby, a security guard who had lived in the Lauderhill, Fla., building for the past two years, was appalled, she told The Washington Post. Irby, 28, had planned to renew her lease by the end of August, but she did not intend to get the coronavirus vaccine.
After unsuccessful negotiations with the management company and her landlord, Santiago A. Alvarez, Irby filed a complaint with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services demanding that she be allowed to renew her lease “without having to disclose my personal health information.”

The letter about the vaccine requirement was posted on Irby’s door as Florida began to grapple with a surge of coronavirus infections attributable to the highly transmissible delta variant. To date, more than 65 percent of Florida residents have received at least one dose of the coronavirus vaccine, according to The Post’s vaccine tracker.
Although Gov. Ron DeSantis was vaccinated in April, the Republican has said that getting immunized is a personal choice that should be left to individuals. DeSantis has pushed against mask and vaccination mandates in businesses and schools. He has also issued executive orders banning businesses and government entities from requiring proof of vaccination.
Alvarez’s policy, which was first reported by the South Florida Sun Sentinel, tests the boundaries of DeSantis’s orders as some businesses in the state attempt to enact their own coronavirus policies to combat the surge in cases. The Biden administration has urged officials in states with low vaccination rates to take a stricter stand on vaccine and mask mandates.

Irby’s attorney drafted a letter that was sent to Alvarez alleging he is violating the governor’s executive order forbidding businesses from requiring “patrons or customers” to provide proof of vaccination.

Tenants wishing to renew their leases must now show proof of vaccination, Alvarez said, though he added that he is willing to allow more time for some long-term residents to meet the requirement. Employees who decline to get the vaccine will be terminated, Alvarez said.
After recovering from covid-19 earlier this year, recently losing two friends from virus complications, and learning that at least a dozen of his tenants have died of the illness, Alvarez — who owns about 1,200 units in Broward and Miami Dade counties — said he is not willing to compromise the health of his vaccinated employees and tenants for those unwilling to get immunized.
“It very much upsets me that my employees are exposed to [covid-19] all days of the week because there is someone who does not want to get vaccinated,” Alvarez, 80, told The Post. “If you don’t want to get vaccinated, I have the obligation and the duty to protect my workers and tenants.”

His attorney, Juan C. Zorrilla, told The Post his client is not violating the governor’s order because tenants are not “customers or patrons” and Alvarez is not providing a service to them. Alvarez, who is willing to make exceptions for those who choose not to get vaccinated for religious or medical reasons, is not violating any other state law or county ordinance, Zorrilla added.
A spokeswoman for the governor’s office told The Post in an email that “the law is very clear,” adding that the Department of Health will issue $5,000 fines to businesses, government entities and educational institutions that require proof of vaccination. The law goes into effect Thursday.
Alvarez “can’t require vaccine passports as a condition of entry or service,” Christina Pushaw, a spokeswoman for DeSantis, told The Post.

When vaccines were not yet widely available in the United States, Alvarez said, it was difficult to learn of a tenant dying from the virus — though in a way, it felt inevitable.
But all of that changed, Alvarez said, when vaccines were approved and people could choose to protect themselves and members of their communities.
By early August, Alvarez said he’d had enough of DeSantis’s comments and orders against vaccine and mask mandates. So he drafted the policy and issued letters to his nearly 70 employees, giving them until Aug. 15 to get the first dose of the vaccine or face termination. Two declined to get vaccinated and walked away from the job, Alvarez said.

Then, he sent tenants a letter encouraging them to get immunized as soon as possible. New tenants, the letter stated, must also show proof of vaccination as of Aug. 15. Those wishing to renew their leases were told to do the same.

“You don’t want to get vaccinated? You have to move,” Alvarez told The Post. “And if you don’t move, one must move forward with eviction.”
He added: “It’s a lack of consideration for your neighbor, it’s a lack of consideration to their own families, to their children.”
Alvarez said most of his tenants and employees have praised him for putting the policy in place.
Irby, whose lease ended on Aug. 31, vacated the premises at the end of the month and moved in with her brother.
“No one wants to live anywhere where they are not wanted … If that’s the case, then I might as well get out,” Irby told The Post. “It was just best that I walked away.”
 

cowboyinexile

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Not a political question for our med experts. Why does immunity wane from the vaccine/natural infection for COVID? The only other vaccine I can think of that requires multiple injections throughout your life is TB (not counting the flu which I've always been told isn't because immunity wanes but because the flu virus mutates).
You need boosters for tetanus and hepatitis as well.

Viruses are weird. Stuff like cold sores and shingles seem to just randomly happen. With this, who knows how COVID will impact someone a decade from now.
 

UrbanCowboy1

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1. There isn't a TB vaccine. What you get annually is a skin test to see if you have been exposed or infected.
2. Immunity from flu vaccines wanes over time. This can happen with other vaccines. That's why we give boosters for tetanus and measles.
3. The experience of waning hasn't been duplicated in other surveys, including in Israel. We don't know why they saw that in their early vaccinations.

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Ha! I completely goofed on that. I said TB, but I meant tetanus. Apologies.

Also, the bigger question is really why do some diseases require boosters but others don't. ELI5.

That's super interesting on point 3. So we're not sure if COVID vaccine wanes or not yet.
 
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RxCowboy

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Ha! I completely goofed on that. I said TB, but I meant tetanus. Apologies.

Also, the bigger question is really why do some diseases require boosters but others don't. ELI5.

That's super interesting on point 3. So we're not sure if COVID vaccine wanes or not yet.
Article from today: COVID vaccines wanes over time, but still helps prevent death and severe illness
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-vaccine-effects-wane-death.html
There is nothing new in that article. If you follow the links backwards to the original research you'll find that I have explained them in some depth.

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Mar 11, 2006
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Hmm, to me that seems like it isn't waning at all - just less effective at fighting different strains.
Well, “COVID vaccine wanes over time” is the headline and Pfizer claimed to FDA today that waning effectiness is not due to different strains.

As the previous article states, study suggests that after four months of the second dose, the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is less effective at preventing infection (classified as a positive PCR test), with protection falling from 96% to 84%.
And real-life data from Israel suggests that over-60s who received their second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in March 2021 were 1.6 times better protected against infection than those who received their second dose two months earlier

Plus, (in new article below) Pfizer says data suggest vaccine boosters needed for waning vaccine efficacy.
Pfizer told the FDA Wednesday that data from its clinical trials suggests a third shot of its coronavirus vaccine may be necessary six months after the second dose because of waning efficacy.
Pfizer data from its trials showed that the efficacy of its coronavirus vaccine, which it developed with BioNTech, degrades by around 6% every two months after the second dose, increasing the likelihood of breakthrough cases.
The drop in effectiveness was "due to waning of vaccine immune responses" and not the Delta variant of the virus escaping the protection offered by the vaccine, Pfizer said.


https://news.yahoo.com/pfizer-says-data-suggests-vaccine-172135257.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Appears the Moderna vaccine also wanes over time
Moderna Inc. has released a set of data which suggested its COVID-19 vaccine is effective in preventing serious health issues or death from "variants of concern" but admitting that efficacy decreases over time.
In a statement issued along with the data, Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel insisted that the data "supports the need for a booster" shot
.

My guess is we won’t know definitively how much the vaccines effectiveness drops over time. I would hope they just prove and announce that a 3rd dose can only help and not cause any danger. That way we can move forward quickly giving boosters to elderly and vulnerable population.
 
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SLVRBK

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To hopefully add some nuance, there are potentially two related questions here at the heart of why people ask if natural immunity is stronger, though both have roughly the same conclusion.

1) is it better to get vaccinated or catch COVID naturally if I'm young and healthy?
Answer is a resounding, get vaccinated. It's safer and has more reliable immune response. Much of the data on immune response from catching COVID are among those with symptoms, sometimes even moderate or more. If you have very mild or asymptomatic responses, you may not achieve the level seen in many recent studies. So, higher risk and really unknown probability of benefits.

2) Do I need to get vaccinated after catching COVID since I probably had a robust immune response?
The answer is still get vaccinated. It still massively boosts your immune response even if you've had it before and even if you have detectable antibodies.

I'm not telling you anything new, but wanted to add the questions that seem to be behind the natural immunity vs vaccine questions.
Came across this article today on difference between Hybrid Immunity and Super Immunity…I had never heard of Super Immunity but am interested in Hybrid Immunity since I have had Covid and Pfizer
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/14/researchers-superhuman-immunity-covid-19/

Researchers Say Some People Have Developed ‘Superhuman Immunity’ Against COVID-19

“If you’ve been infected then you can take comfort in knowing on top of that infection, you can boost your immune response with a vaccine. You can create a level of immune response that’s remarkable,” Dr. Mohanakrishnan said.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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How else are they going to monetize annual booster shots?

:D
That is very true --- thought the same thing. Pfizer and Moderna do have an enormous financial incentive to get boosters approved.
Interesting to read in the CNN article (top headline on cnn.com right now) below that "The reports, all published in the New England Journal of Medicine, are being used by Pfizer and by some federal officials to support the argument that most people will need booster doses starting around six months after they are initially vaccinated."

Three reports support arguments for booster doses of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine - CNN
 

kaboy42

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How else are they going to monetize annual booster shots?

:D
How long is the US govt/tax dollar gonna foot the bill for vaccination and/or testing?*




(*I'm assuming that Biden's proposal that all companies larger than 100 employees have all of their employees vaccinated or tested regularly, that the cost will then be shifted to the company... but have no idea).
 

osupsycho

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.
 
May 4, 2011
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How long is the US govt/tax dollar gonna foot the bill for vaccination and/or testing?*




(*I'm assuming that Biden's proposal that all companies larger than 100 employees have all of their employees vaccinated or tested regularly, that the cost will then be shifted to the company... but have no idea).
Vaccines for the foreseeable future will still be covered by the feds. I don't think anyone knows where testing dollars are coming from. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan. It's an unfunded mandate at a time when testing access is much smaller than it was and can be expensive if insurance doesn't cover it. On the flipside, if it pushes us to adopt more of the super cheap, rapid tests that are being used several places in Europe, that could be a nice secondary effect.
 
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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.

? Are we sure about this?
 

RxCowboy

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3. The experience of waning hasn't been duplicated in other surveys, including in Israel. We don't know why they saw that in their early vaccinations.
mask
So, Pfizer and Moderna are both wrong in their assessment that their vaccine wanes over time?
Haven't seen their proprietary data.

Note: the latter comparator group in Israel has not yet shown waning.

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RxCowboy

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.

? Are we sure about this?
Yes. You have to survive the infection to reach natural immunity.

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