Covid-19

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Dec 9, 2013
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Aaaaaaand this feels like the real point you've been wanting to make the whole time.

That employee could just get vaccinated and have better protection with the bonus of not getting fired. I mean, they're apparently super concerned with having the best immunity anyway.

I don't support this mandate, but it definitely seems like you want to boil all of the scientific nuance down to partisan bickering over a policy.
That’s the point. It’s been the same damn thing since day 1. It’s gone from “this is the flu” to “this is seasonal” to “masks don’t work” to “why not try hcq “ to “the vaccine isn’t as effective” back to “masks don’t work” to “I told you vaccines won’t work bc now we need boosters” to “ivermectin is the answer”to “natural immunity vs vaccine immunity”.

It’s herd immunity theory applied to faux outrage. Instead of worrying about the latest stick in your craw why don’t we all just focus on what science says works best and get everyone vaccinated (that can be). It’s really getting silly.
 

gogetumpoke

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Sep 3, 2010
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Again, George doesn't know that and as numerous court cases have held, Margret will win the lawsuit.
This mandate is not even close to being litigated yet and you admittedly don’t know that George’s immunity isn’t as good as Bob’s. Now you’re being ridiculous. Margret has problems.
 

steross

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Mar 31, 2004
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Is the medical community at least in agreement that natural immunity is superior to the immunity from the vaccine? Not sure how you got there from that question. It's a serious question about immunity and nowhere, not one single place, did I say that people shouldn't get vaccinated. If the immunity is at least as good why should someone with natural immunity lose their job over someone who is vaccinated?
No. The Israeli study confirmed the best possible immunity involves getting vaccinated.
 

gogetumpoke

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Aaaaaaand this feels like the real point you've been wanting to make the whole time. It was a simple question about natural immunity that you, for some reason, didn’t want to answer so I found the answer myself. I was forced to use the mandate scenario because somehow my question was interpreted as me being against vaccination. Straight up BS.


That employee could just get vaccinated and have better protection with the bonus of not getting fired. I mean, they're apparently super concerned with having the best immunity anyway. George and Bob have the same immunity to start with and pose the same risks to the other employees. The only difference is that George got his immunity from infection and Bob got his from the vaccine. Should Bob get double vaccinated?

I don't support this mandate, but it definitely seems like you want to boil all of the scientific nuance down to partisan bickering over a policy.
It was a simple friggin question. Reasonable answers would have included yes, no, or we simply don’t know. After getting the runaround by the board experts I’ve done a little digging on my own and I have concluded that yes, those that have natural immunity from infection are just as protected as those that have not had Covid but have been vaccinated. I would agree that there appears to be some benefit for those that have recovered to get vaccinated. That was never any part of my question
 

gogetumpoke

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No. The Israeli study confirmed the best possible immunity involves getting vaccinated.
This one?

A new study from Israel, which is yet to be peer reviewed, concluded that natural immunity confers longer-lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalisation caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared with immunity induced from two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech two-dose vaccine
 

steross

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This one?

A new study from Israel, which is yet to be peer reviewed, concluded that natural immunity confers longer-lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalisation caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared with immunity induced from two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech two-dose vaccine
Yep. People (especially the media) always take what they want from studies not what they say.
 

gogetumpoke

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Yep. People (especially the media) always take what they want from studies not what they say.

From a just published UK study:

We found an absolute reduction of one dose vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with the B.1.617.2 variant of approximately 20% when compared to the B.1.1.7 variant. However, reductions in vaccine effectiveness after two doses were very small. This was the case for both the BNT162b2 and ChAdOx1 vaccines. Using a TNCC analysis, estimated vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with B.1.617.2 for a single dose of either vaccine is approximately 33%, for two doses of BNT162b2 is approximately 88% and for two doses of ChAdOx1 is approximately 60%.​
What this means:
1. One dose of vaccine is less effective against delta variant than against wildtype.
2. Differences in two doses of vaccine were negligible between wildtype and delta variant.
3. Single dose of vaccine was 33% effective for symptomatic disease for delta variant.
4. Two doses of BNT162b2 (Pfizer) vaccine was 88% effective against delta variant while ChAdOx1 (AstraZeneca) was only 60%.

Their conclusions:

Overall, we found high levels of vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease after two doses. These estimates were only modestly lower than vaccine effectiveness against the B.1.1.7 variant. It is likely that vaccine effectiveness against more severe disease outcomes will be greater. Our finding of reduced effectiveness after dose 1, would support maximising vaccine uptake with two doses among vulnerable groups in the context of circulation of B.1.617.2.​
I've tried to look at the Israeli study that everyone is quoting, but I can't find an English translation and don't speak Hebrew. I generally don't trust popular press interpretations because I've found them to be frequently wrong. But I found this from Nature, which I do trust:

The data also suggest that the time between doses of vaccine doesn’t affect vaccine effectiveness, and that people who have previously tested positive for COVID-19 as well as receiving two vaccine doses have the best protection against future infection.​
The analysis focused on the 18–64 age group and didn’t look at hospitalizations or fatalities, points out Dvir Aran, a biomedical data scientist at Technion — Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa. “This study is about infection, not severe disease,” he says. The results back up observations from Israel, which vaccinated its population very early in the pandemic, he says. “We are seeing high levels of breakthrough [infections] in the population that was vaccinated early, and on the other hand, we are seeing robust protection in those vaccinated recently — especially in 12–15-year-olds.”​
So, the answer is still, even if you've been infected you need to be vaccinated because infected+vaccinated provides superior protected to infected alone. And you need both shots.
YEP. I see what you mean.
 

osupsycho

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We also don’t know the answer to any of those questions for the vaccinated yet he gets to skate according to the mandate. I would have less trouble with the mandate if they made some concessions for those with antibodies from natural immunity but they don’t. When my employee with natural immunity from infection asks why his immunity isn’t as good as Bob’s I’ll just tell him it’s a stupid question and that he’s fired. Thanks for the help.
You are missing the point. We are talking about a government mandate which means large scale sweeping conditions. Thus the not fully scientifically proven ability of antibodies from previous infection cannot be taken into account because they are not easily assimilated and tracked like having taken the vaccine can be. The immunity of each individual who had COVID before is not something they can track like having taken a vaccine. So of course the government is going to go with what they can see and track. For that matter the antibodies and resistance to the disease for those that have had COVID and not gotten a vaccine are no where near as documented a success as those that have received a vaccine. So of course they are going to go with the scientifically validated option above others. This is nothing new by the way. I am one of the few people that have actually had chicken pox more than once. This is because I got such a mild case the first time that I did not develop enough proper antibodies to immune me from it later like most people. COVID is the the same in that it is a scale that cannot be relied that an individual had a case previously that they can be deemed safe from infection later. The vaccine however has shown in multiple peer reviewed studied to be mostly equal in its immunity as long as you are not elderly or have multiple other underlying conditions.
 

RxCowboy

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Agreed. But why wouldn’t he survive if he has the same level of immunity as Bob? Are you saying that those with natural immunity are dying at a faster rate than those with vaccinated immunity?
I dunno. Maybe the 650k who have died in the US, including my sister in law, are just too stupid to understand that their natural immunity is superior and should protect them from death. No, I'm saying that the unvaccinated are dying at a astronomically faster rate than the vaccinated. That's the price of developing natural immunity.

You deserve to be called an idiot for making such an idiotic statement, idiot.
 

RxCowboy

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We also don’t know the answer to any of those questions for the vaccinated yet he gets to skate according to the mandate. I would have less trouble with the mandate if they made some concessions for those with antibodies from natural immunity but they don’t. When my employee with natural immunity from infection asks why his immunity isn’t as good as Bob’s I’ll just tell him it’s a stupid question and that he’s fired. Thanks for the help.
Because that is the surest way to keep from ending up in ICU, which can cost a self-insured company up to a million. If I owned a self insured company, like the one I work for, I would mandate vaccination, which they did.
 

gogetumpoke

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I dunno. Maybe the 650k who have died in the US, including my sister in law, are just too stupid to understand that their natural immunity is superior and should protect them from death. No, I'm saying that the unvaccinated are dying at a astronomically faster rate than the vaccinated. That's the price of developing natural immunity.

You deserve to be called an idiot for making such an idiotic statement, idiot.
I never once suggested that anyone should forgo the vaccine and wait to get their immunity from the virus. Nice stretch even for you. Is natural immunity from having contracted Covid at least equal to the immunity from the vaccine in those that haven’t had Covid? St. Luke’s and a lot of other folks seem to think so. You won’t answer that simple question why?
 

steross

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I never once suggested that anyone should forgo the vaccine and wait to get their immunity from the virus. Nice stretch even for you. Is natural immunity from having contracted Covid at least equal to the immunity from the vaccine in those that haven’t had Covid? St. Luke’s and a lot of other folks seem to think so. You won’t answer that simple question why?
Why do people want "at least equal" when they can have clearly better?
 

Rack

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How are you not getting this? My question is not should you get vaccinated whether or not you have had the virus. My question is....Is the medical community at least in agreement that natural immunity is superior to the immunity from the vaccine? To put it another way. Bob has never had covid but is fully vaccinated. George is not vaccinated but has had a confirmed case of covid and has tested positive for the antibodies. Is George's immunity as good as Bob's?
As far as "the medical community," you have all types in it....some are staunch anti vax, most of the time these are the sorts that also work MOSTLY for economic benefit in holistic fields like chiropractic care or vision care or wellness (I'm thinking of a specific "person" in Tulsa). The extremely successful financially of these types are typically very independent and cocky persons who think they know everything and seldom trust ANY research if it's not their own or from their community. This attitude serves them to believe in their own science over "accepted" science. These guys and gals are a very American type of counter culture and very rarely "agree" with the rest of the medical community on much of anything, vaccines are just a part of that disbelief.

Here's the deal, in your work example, both as a requirement for George's work, AND because it provides additional immunity, George needs to get the vaccine. This way, George is not only doing the right thing for his family and friends, George is also doing the right thing for his employer and his financial situation. EVEN then, a provision has been made that if George STILL, after all the evidence, doesn't want to take it, he can choose to take a test every day. Employees are required to do things everyday, we have to pay taxes, we have to do drug testing, we have to be kind to others, we have to work with people whom we don't agree with, we have to keep moving forward...part of that is taking a simple vaccine.