Covid-19

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oks10

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There are significant risks other than death, particularly for the young. COVID myocarditis can take a young healthy person and turn them into a cardiac disability case. Not dead, but shorter life span and lower life quality.
Interestingly, despite the fact that getting COVID is higher risk and causes more severe myocarditis, if you google "covid myocarditis" virtually every link is about vaccination myocarditis. No wonder people are inappropriately fearful. Just think if "seatbelt accident" brought up millions of articles about the rare times that seatbelts entrap people in a fiery crash or underwater instead of saying that they save lives.

That's a much more professional response than the "Because deaths only matter, long term effects be damned" response I was about to give... :D
 
Mar 11, 2006
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There are significant risks other than death, particularly for the young. COVID myocarditis can take a young healthy person and turn them into a cardiac disability case. Not dead, but shorter life span and lower life quality.
Interestingly, despite the fact that getting COVID is higher risk and causes more severe myocarditis, if you google "covid myocarditis" virtually every link is about vaccination myocarditis. No wonder people are inappropriately fearful. Just think if "seatbelt accident" brought up millions of articles about the rare times that seatbelts entrap people in a fiery crash or underwater instead of saying that they save lives.

I am willing to be educated. How many youth have been effected by myocarditis after COVID? If this is happening more than minimal I would assume it would be documented. The best thing I can find is an American Heart Association document about a month old that says it is "rare and uncommon" for myocarditis in youth after COVID.

BTW, you are right. Tried searching for data and stats on myocarditis and COVID and nearly everything was about after a person gets the vaccine ---- even on the CDC site.
 
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Are many unvaccinated kids dying? If that is true then I am not aware and it is news to me. The CDC website (updated July 17th) shows 337 deaths from COVID for kids age 17 and below since March 2020. That is less than the 477 Influenza deaths listed for the same age group for the 2018-2019 flu season. I am certainly not disputing that kids can get COVID, but the percentage of COVID deaths for youth is .05%. For the flu it was 1.5%.

I am not overly concerned with protecting 12 year olds (ie stat above). I don’t want them to get it because they could spread to others. Agree that schools should exercise good hygeine, but I am happy at least my school will not be mandating masks and making them voluntary. There may be some unvaccinated teachers, but I think the larger issue will be teachers balking at teaching students who don’t wear a mask.
How many under 12s have to die before that # is too many? If it’s yours or someone close isn’t that # 1? Shouldn’t that # be 1 anyway if the only thing it means is wearing a mask for 8 hrs a day? I mean really what’s wrong w making everyone that steps into a school Wear a mask?

Also where was this years flu season? Oh yeah it was nonexistent. Wonder why?
 
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How many under 12s have to die before that # is too many? If it’s yours or someone close isn’t that # 1?

Also where was this years flu season? Oh yeah it was nonexistent. Wonder why?
150 died from playing on the playground last decade. I don't advocate for removing playground equipment. Reducing risk is vital....eliminating risk is impossible.

Of the small amount of COVID related deaths for under 17 years of age, a higher amount & proportion appears to come from states that had less person schooling. And almost every expert will tell you the importance of in-person schooling ...Yet we have teacher unions still advocating for remote schooling.
 
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150 died from playing on the playground last decade. I don't advocate for removing playground equipment. Reducing risk is vital....eliminating risk is impossible.

Of the small amount of COVID related deaths for under 17 years of age, a higher amount & proportion appears to come from states that had less person schooling. And almost every expert will tell you the importance of in-person schooling ...Yet we have teacher unions still advocating for remote schooling.
But haven’t we adopted best practices and made playgrounds as safe as we can? Maybe not in every instance but that’s where we get better as a society. We learn and make it better. I mean sure who doesn’t miss the steel slide facing south in late August when you are wearing shorts?

I in no way advocate for distance learning. We need all kids in school M-F. But what do you think is going to happen in a class of 25 where 2 kids get CoVid and local principals can’t require masks? That whole class is out for 10 days. Comes back for 2 weeks and 2 more test +. Then we are out for another 10 days. This is a scenario that will play out over and over.

Would it not be better to have everyone in a mask and then when you get a + test you don’t lose the whole class over and over again?
 
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But haven’t we adopted best practices and made playgrounds as safe as we can? Maybe not in every instance but that’s where we get better as a society. We learn and make it better. I mean sure who doesn’t miss the steel slide facing south in late August when you are wearing shorts?

I in no way advocate for distance learning. We need all kids in school M-F. But what do you think is going to happen in a class of 25 where 2 kids get CoVid and local principals can’t require masks? That whole class is out for 10 days. Comes back for 2 weeks and 2 more test +. Then we are out for another 10 days. This is a scenario that will play out over and over.

Would it not be better to have everyone in a mask and then when you get a + test you don’t lose the whole class over and over again?
You bring up a very good point. How schools may alter contact tracing policies for not wearing masks when a student tests positive....I am not sure ....I will ask as I would like to know (my wife is one of the certified contact tracers at our school so I should be able to get the answer, at least for my local school :)).
I believe they are going to only have students quarantine if they had a certain amount of minutes of close exposure...but I am not certain.
 
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If masks on kids gets them in school all day every day and keeps even 1 of them alive then make them wear masks.

And as others have said it’s not just about keeping kids safe it’s also about protecting others and reducing transmission.
That is where you and I differ. As adults it is incumbent on us to manage risks for our children, but risks can't be eliminated in life. Sure we could lock our kids in their bedrooms all day and bubble-wrap them, but kids not only need to be kids - they deserve to be kids. It was an absolute shame that some states prohibited athletic sports not only for schools but for club teams in their states.
 

steross

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I am willing to be educated. How many youth have been effected by myocarditis after COVID? If this is happening more than minimal I would assume it would be documented. The best thing I can find is an American Heart Association document about a month old that says it is "rare and uncommon" for myocarditis in youth after COVID.

BTW, you are right. Tried searching for data and stats on myocarditis and COVID and nearly everything was about after a person gets the vaccine ---- even on the CDC site.
I don't have data on exactly how many have been affected only discussion with two pediatric cardiologist who have said that the myocarditis that they have seen from COVID is more frequent and severe than from immunization (anecdotal, i know)

This is recent from MMWR regarding overall risk of vaccination in the age group. Bottom line, more risk from COVID than the vaccine in the teen age group and that is without even considering "long covid."

Screen Shot 2021-07-23 at 3.10.21 PM.png
 

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That is where you and I differ. As adults it is incumbent on us to manage risks for our children, but risks can't be eliminated in life. Sure we could lock our kids in their bedrooms all day and bubble-wrap them, but kids not only need to be kids - they deserve to be kids. It was an absolute shame that some states prohibited athletic sports not only for schools but for club teams in their states.
You are right risks can’t be eliminated in every situation but there is risk mitigation.

I still don’t get if we can save lives of kids and by extension their families and their families friends and coworkers why we wouldn’t wear masks.

I ask again. How many lives have to be lost to not wearing masks in schools is ok w you as long as we don’t wear masks.

And again why are you opposed to wearing masks?
 
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You are right risks can’t be eliminated in every situation but there is risk mitigation.

I still don’t get if we can save lives of kids and by extension their families and their families friends and coworkers why we wouldn’t wear masks.

I ask again. How many lives have to be lost to not wearing masks in schools is ok w you as long as we don’t wear masks.

And again why are you opposed to wearing masks?
Very fair question about lives lost, but hard to answer a number without being able to quantify what deaths could be stopped by wearing a mask in school. Or in the lunch room, or in the gym, or on the bus, on during vocal music.

You have been clear that even one death in the nation is too much. I respect your opinion and understand it, but I disagree. We can’t and..at least IMO shouldn’t be having a goal for zero risk. As stated previously, we experience more deaths with school-age kids with influenza than COVID. Since the flu has been here since I’ve been alive and I don’t think going anywhere, are you advocating for masks in school from now going forward? What is the end game? Because if you are advocating masks to reduce even one additional death with kids, then the flu is your bigger culprit.


BTW, I am not opposed to wearing masks, but not an advocate for most situations - especially for vaccinated people. Honestly, if I was in charge I would require masks on the bus. Masking in confined spaces makes sense.

EDIT: @steross brought up good points about potential long-term effects. If there is good reliable data on that …that points to a higher probability of severe negative outcomes like myocarditis then it certainly could change the decision making on masks in school. I’m interested to learn more.
 
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Very fair question about lives lost, but hard to answer a number without being able to quantify what deaths could be stopped by wearing a mask in school. Or in the lunch room, or in the gym, or on the bus, on during vocal music.

You have been clear that even one death in the nation is too much. I respect your opinion and understand it, but I disagree. We can’t and..at least IMO shouldn’t be having a goal for zero risk. As stated previously, we experience more deaths with school-age kids with influenza than COVID. Since the flu has been here since I’ve been alive and I don’t think going anywhere, are you advocating for masks in school from now going forward? What is the end game? Because if you are advocating masks to reduce even one additional death with kids, then the flu is your bigger culprit.


BTW, I am not opposed to wearing masks, but not an advocate for most situations - especially for vaccinated people. Honestly, if I was in charge I would require masks on the bus. Masking in confined spaces makes sense.
Fair points. I think we don’t know about CoVid deaths in kids vs Flu deaths bc we don’t have a good base case. I think we are about to get it. Also before we look at past CoVid data in kids let’s remember we are probably studying orig strain vs variant strains.
 

wrenhal

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I can tell you the goal posts will move because look at it this way, it's not just kooks that would think this.

One, how long does it normally take a drug to receive full FDA approval? Isn't this in the multi-year category?

Two, how many drugs; I know it's not many, go through that full process and are still later recalled because of adverse side effects that were never caught until the drug was fully released, or were hidden by the manufacturer somehow?

The thought of there being issues just has to be plausible for people to come up with reasons to reject it.

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I mean, I've heard it from people, some of them not conspiracy nuts. So not all are kooks.

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wrenhal

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And again I ask what is required for an EUA to be granted? What paperwork must be filed by pharma? What data must be presented? What documentation? Every single vial ships with package information, a regulatory document. What is the process for that, or can the pharma just make it up? What about shipping, storage and handling? Do those have to be approved? Or can you just sit the vaccines on the loading doc for a couple of days?

People decrying "unapproved" have no earthly idea what they are talking about.

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Well I'm obviously confused. I have no idea what the hell is required for an EUA. Never claimed to know how to build that watch. Per the article, and my elementary understanding, I assume that the vaccine was granted an EUA because it needed further study before being granted full approval. Are you saying that an EUA is just as good as a formal FDA approval? If they are the same why the different designation?
I am saying that EUA isn't "experimental" as people are saying. Pfizer, for instance, had to submit safety and efficacy data, along with many other regulatory documents, to obtain the EUA. The FDA didn't simply wave them through and there was absolutely nothing "informal" about it. AstraZeneca's vaccine isn't on the market in the US yet because they've failed to meet the standards required by the FDA for emergency use authorization (namely safety).

You might want to listen to a pharmacist who actually knows about the drug approval process. Just sayin'...

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mRNA hasn't been used in a marketed drug before correct? I can see where, in the public eye, that seem as if they are experimental.

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