Basketball Off-season Thread

[POPOKE]

I think this thread is way too negative on our upside next year.


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What are your expectations?

Expectations? Finish 5th, but when ppl use standings in their argument it’s kind of convoluted because most of the time teams in the second tier of the Big 12 all have the same 12-6 record and the difference between 2nd and 4th is merely a tie breaker.

But I think like a 6 or 7 seed in tourney should be the aim, an 8 or 9 would be a bit more disappointing.

However, how I see the upside is a lot different. Honestly, go ahead and rank the primary creators in the Big 12 right now. I think a fair ranking is:
1. Flagler (Baylor)
2. Miles (TCU)
3. Anderson (OSU)
4. McCullar (Kansas) [important note: I’m not saying McCullar is bad, but he’s a 3 that is going to be playing out of position for Kansas who basically will be playing without a point guard or one with any experience, when you take McCullar’s other assets into the game other than leading a whole offense, he’ll be the deserved favorite for conference player of the year).
5. Hunter (Texas)
6. Harmon (Tech)

Flager is a steady-eddie kind of player unlikely to explode. Anderson is a similar player to Miles and could easily potentially outplay him, McCullar already mentioned that he’ll be playing without a PG so he’ll have to take the full burden of an offense. Avery has outplayed Hunter twice already. Harmon is another version of Flagler.

Long story short, there’s a real chance that Avery is the best primary creator in the Big 12 this season. Some of you will scoff, which is fine, but growth being completely linear is a myth, and I still think he can elevate his game even though it didn’t go quite as expected last year.

The competition for a secondary ball handler is more fierce, Keyonte George for Baylor, Texas has like 3 guys that could be pretty good. But Thompson, has the talent and experience to be the best secondary ball handler in the conference. And vitally, his archetype of player should be a spacer, it’s not another guy who can’t work without the ball in his hands. He has real shooting pedigree that I think will show back up better than his %s last year.

I think Cisse can be the best defensive player in the county, full stop. Don’t tell me anything about perimeter players, they aren’t half as valuable as rim protectors, and I don’t see how anyone in the conference that’s going to come close to measuring up to him. He’s got the pedigree and we’ve already seen it on the court.

If you have 2 guys who are top tier creators in the conference, that can space the court, and a true foundational guy on the defensive end that’s enough for a team to be competing for the conference and at least a 3 seed.


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Flagler as the number one play maker in the conference? Hahaha, what a terrible take. Comically bad. Flagler is a shooter. He’s not a create his shot type of guy, at all. Akinjo was Baylor’s play maker last year. McCullar also a shot creator type of player. Mike Miles is currently the best shot creator in the conference. After that AA is solidly on the list.

 

[Jalexjsmithj]

I think this thread is way too negative on our upside next year.


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What are your expectations?

Expectations? Finish 5th, but when ppl use standings in their argument it’s kind of convoluted because most of the time teams in the second tier of the Big 12 all have the same 12-6 record and the difference between 2nd and 4th is merely a tie breaker.

But I think like a 6 or 7 seed in tourney should be the aim, an 8 or 9 would be a bit more disappointing.

However, how I see the upside is a lot different. Honestly, go ahead and rank the primary creators in the Big 12 right now. I think a fair ranking is:
1. Flagler (Baylor)
2. Miles (TCU)
3. Anderson (OSU)
4. McCullar (Kansas) [important note: I’m not saying McCullar is bad, but he’s a 3 that is going to be playing out of position for Kansas who basically will be playing without a point guard or one with any experience, when you take McCullar’s other assets into the game other than leading a whole offense, he’ll be the deserved favorite for conference player of the year).
5. Hunter (Texas)
6. Harmon (Tech)

Flager is a steady-eddie kind of player unlikely to explode. Anderson is a similar player to Miles and could easily potentially outplay him, McCullar already mentioned that he’ll be playing without a PG so he’ll have to take the full burden of an offense. Avery has outplayed Hunter twice already. Harmon is another version of Flagler.

Long story short, there’s a real chance that Avery is the best primary creator in the Big 12 this season. Some of you will scoff, which is fine, but growth being completely linear is a myth, and I still think he can elevate his game even though it didn’t go quite as expected last year.

The competition for a secondary ball handler is more fierce, Keyonte George for Baylor, Texas has like 3 guys that could be pretty good. But Thompson, has the talent and experience to be the best secondary ball handler in the conference. And vitally, his archetype of player should be a spacer, it’s not another guy who can’t work without the ball in his hands. He has real shooting pedigree that I think will show back up better than his %s last year.

I think Cisse can be the best defensive player in the county, full stop. Don’t tell me anything about perimeter players, they aren’t half as valuable as rim protectors, and I don’t see how anyone in the conference that’s going to come close to measuring up to him. He’s got the pedigree and we’ve already seen it on the court.

If you have 2 guys who are top tier creators in the conference, that can space the court, and a true foundational guy on the defensive end that’s enough for a team to be competing for the conference and at least a 3 seed.


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Flagler as the number one play maker in the conference? Hahaha, what a terrible take. Comically bad. Flagler is a shooter. He’s not a create his shot type of guy, at all. Akinjo was Baylor’s play maker last year. McCullar also a shot creator type of player. Mike Miles is currently the best shot creator in the conference. After that AA is solidly on the list.

But Akinjo is gone now and Flagler was really good on ball himself and is extremely experienced. I said he’s more of the steady hand type, so I’m not sure what your problem with that take is. I think it’s pretty clear that he’s expected to bring to the ball, get the offense in motion, and then regulate the ups and downs that the 5 star Keynote George will have. If Kansas Flagler, he’d be doing the same thing for McCullar.

Also we like agree on all the other spots, so it’s not a crazy list.


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[POPOKE]

I think this thread is way too negative on our upside next year.


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What are your expectations?

Expectations? Finish 5th, but when ppl use standings in their argument it’s kind of convoluted because most of the time teams in the second tier of the Big 12 all have the same 12-6 record and the difference between 2nd and 4th is merely a tie breaker.

But I think like a 6 or 7 seed in tourney should be the aim, an 8 or 9 would be a bit more disappointing.

However, how I see the upside is a lot different. Honestly, go ahead and rank the primary creators in the Big 12 right now. I think a fair ranking is:
1. Flagler (Baylor)
2. Miles (TCU)
3. Anderson (OSU)
4. McCullar (Kansas) [important note: I’m not saying McCullar is bad, but he’s a 3 that is going to be playing out of position for Kansas who basically will be playing without a point guard or one with any experience, when you take McCullar’s other assets into the game other than leading a whole offense, he’ll be the deserved favorite for conference player of the year).
5. Hunter (Texas)
6. Harmon (Tech)

Flager is a steady-eddie kind of player unlikely to explode. Anderson is a similar player to Miles and could easily potentially outplay him, McCullar already mentioned that he’ll be playing without a PG so he’ll have to take the full burden of an offense. Avery has outplayed Hunter twice already. Harmon is another version of Flagler.

Long story short, there’s a real chance that Avery is the best primary creator in the Big 12 this season. Some of you will scoff, which is fine, but growth being completely linear is a myth, and I still think he can elevate his game even though it didn’t go quite as expected last year.

The competition for a secondary ball handler is more fierce, Keyonte George for Baylor, Texas has like 3 guys that could be pretty good. But Thompson, has the talent and experience to be the best secondary ball handler in the conference. And vitally, his archetype of player should be a spacer, it’s not another guy who can’t work without the ball in his hands. He has real shooting pedigree that I think will show back up better than his %s last year.

I think Cisse can be the best defensive player in the county, full stop. Don’t tell me anything about perimeter players, they aren’t half as valuable as rim protectors, and I don’t see how anyone in the conference that’s going to come close to measuring up to him. He’s got the pedigree and we’ve already seen it on the court.

If you have 2 guys who are top tier creators in the conference, that can space the court, and a true foundational guy on the defensive end that’s enough for a team to be competing for the conference and at least a 3 seed.


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Flagler as the number one play maker in the conference? Hahaha, what a terrible take. Comically bad. Flagler is a shooter. He’s not a create his shot type of guy, at all. Akinjo was Baylor’s play maker last year. McCullar also a shot creator type of player. Mike Miles is currently the best shot creator in the conference. After that AA is solidly on the list.

But Akinjo is gone now and Flagler was really good on ball himself and is extremely experienced. I said he’s more of the steady hand type, so I’m not sure what your problem with that take is. I think it’s pretty clear that he’s expected to bring to the ball, get the offense in motion, and then regulate the ups and downs that the 5 star Keynote George will have. If Kansas Flagler, he’d be doing the same thing for McCullar.

Also we like agree on all the other spots, so it’s not a crazy list.


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You said Flagler was the number play maker in the conference. That’s a terrible take. And we don’t agree on the rest of the list.

 

[Sutton4ever]

Expectations? Finish 5th, but when ppl use standings in their argument it’s kind of convoluted because most of the time teams in the second tier of the Big 12 all have the same 12-6 record and the difference between 2nd and 4th is merely a tie breaker.

But I think like a 6 or 7 seed in tourney should be the aim, an 8 or 9 would be a bit more disappointing.

However, how I see the upside is a lot different. Honestly, go ahead and rank the primary creators in the Big 12 right now. I think a fair ranking is:
1. Flagler (Baylor)
2. Miles (TCU)
3. Anderson (OSU)
4. McCullar (Kansas) [important note: I’m not saying McCullar is bad, but he’s a 3 that is going to be playing out of position for Kansas who basically will be playing without a point guard or one with any experience, when you take McCullar’s other assets into the game other than leading a whole offense, he’ll be the deserved favorite for conference player of the year).
5. Hunter (Texas)
6. Harmon (Tech)

Flager is a steady-eddie kind of player unlikely to explode. Anderson is a similar player to Miles and could easily potentially outplay him, McCullar already mentioned that he’ll be playing without a PG so he’ll have to take the full burden of an offense. Avery has outplayed Hunter twice already. Harmon is another version of Flagler.

Long story short, there’s a real chance that Avery is the best primary creator in the Big 12 this season. Some of you will scoff, which is fine, but growth being completely linear is a myth, and I still think he can elevate his game even though it didn’t go quite as expected last year.

The competition for a secondary ball handler is more fierce, Keyonte George for Baylor, Texas has like 3 guys that could be pretty good. But Thompson, has the talent and experience to be the best secondary ball handler in the conference. And vitally, his archetype of player should be a spacer, it’s not another guy who can’t work without the ball in his hands. He has real shooting pedigree that I think will show back up better than his %s last year.

I think Cisse can be the best defensive player in the county, full stop. Don’t tell me anything about perimeter players, they aren’t half as valuable as rim protectors, and I don’t see how anyone in the conference that’s going to come close to measuring up to him. He’s got the pedigree and we’ve already seen it on the court.

If you have 2 guys who are top tier creators in the conference, that can space the court, and a true foundational guy on the defensive end that’s enough for a team to be competing for the conference and at least a 3 seed.


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The league had a ton of the All Big 12 players graduate. AA on 3rd team was one of the few remaining returners from all league selections.

 

[Jalexjsmithj]

Expectations? Finish 5th, but when ppl use standings in their argument it’s kind of convoluted because most of the time teams in the second tier of the Big 12 all have the same 12-6 record and the difference between 2nd and 4th is merely a tie breaker.

But I think like a 6 or 7 seed in tourney should be the aim, an 8 or 9 would be a bit more disappointing.

However, how I see the upside is a lot different. Honestly, go ahead and rank the primary creators in the Big 12 right now. I think a fair ranking is:
1. Flagler (Baylor)
2. Miles (TCU)
3. Anderson (OSU)
4. McCullar (Kansas) [important note: I’m not saying McCullar is bad, but he’s a 3 that is going to be playing out of position for Kansas who basically will be playing without a point guard or one with any experience, when you take McCullar’s other assets into the game other than leading a whole offense, he’ll be the deserved favorite for conference player of the year).
5. Hunter (Texas)
6. Harmon (Tech)

Flager is a steady-eddie kind of player unlikely to explode. Anderson is a similar player to Miles and could easily potentially outplay him, McCullar already mentioned that he’ll be playing without a PG so he’ll have to take the full burden of an offense. Avery has outplayed Hunter twice already. Harmon is another version of Flagler.

Long story short, there’s a real chance that Avery is the best primary creator in the Big 12 this season. Some of you will scoff, which is fine, but growth being completely linear is a myth, and I still think he can elevate his game even though it didn’t go quite as expected last year.

The competition for a secondary ball handler is more fierce, Keyonte George for Baylor, Texas has like 3 guys that could be pretty good. But Thompson, has the talent and experience to be the best secondary ball handler in the conference. And vitally, his archetype of player should be a spacer, it’s not another guy who can’t work without the ball in his hands. He has real shooting pedigree that I think will show back up better than his %s last year.

I think Cisse can be the best defensive player in the county, full stop. Don’t tell me anything about perimeter players, they aren’t half as valuable as rim protectors, and I don’t see how anyone in the conference that’s going to come close to measuring up to him. He’s got the pedigree and we’ve already seen it on the court.

If you have 2 guys who are top tier creators in the conference, that can space the court, and a true foundational guy on the defensive end that’s enough for a team to be competing for the conference and at least a 3 seed.


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The league had a ton of the All Big 12 players graduate. AA on 3rd team was one of the few remaining returners from all league selections.

Exactly. IMO there was a lot of weird dynamics going on last year with Ice, who couldn’t function without the ball and how well Bryce Williams played early in the year, just too many guys, never a rhythm. I think it’s going to be super beneficial to Avery and Bryce just rolling them the ball and letting them really have the full run of the team.


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[CocoCincinnati]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked at the last two classes for everyone in the big 12. It's harder than it used to be to figure out who is bringing in the best classes due to all the transfers. Still I could see enough to say another 5th place finish would be a really good job. There is a lot of talent in the league. Certainly the top 4 of ku, bu, ut and tt are fairly loaded but other than ksu and wvu, I'm not sure we can say with certainty we're that far ahead of the rest. And wvu has a hall of fame coach which means something. I'm less optimistic than I was....but go pokes let's see what happens.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked at the last two classes for everyone in the big 12. It's harder than it used to be to figure out who is bringing in the best classes due to all the transfers. Still I could see enough to say another 5th place finish would be a really good job. There is a lot of talent in the league. Certainly the top 4 of ku, bu, ut and tt are fairly loaded but other than ksu and wvu, I'm not sure we can say with certainty we're that far ahead of the rest. And wvu has a hall of fame coach which means something. I'm less optimistic than I was....but go pokes let's see what happens.

You left off TCU. Understandable in that we never had to discuss them but in my opinion they have the roster, the star power and a borderline HoF coach. They were a questionable call away from Sweet 16.

I know coaches and players won’t concede losses or claim wins, but who would be surprised if we took an L in those 5 road games. Then let’s say we go 3-2 in GIA. I could be talked into 2-3 and just as easy 4-1 but 3-2 seems middle.

That’s 7 losses. Now look at WVU,uo, ISU &KSt. Do we sweep? Probably not. So probably likely we go 7-1 or 6-2. That’s 8 losses in Big12 or 10-8. It wouldn’t surprise me if we stole a road win against what will probably be the top 5 road teams. But it also wouldn’t surprise me to go 2-3 to those same teams at home.

I think any way you realistically look at it our stretch ceiling is probably 11-7 and our floor is 9-9.

I hope they surprise to 12-6 or better but then you start talking about sweeping the bottom 4 and stealing wins from the top 5 on the road or being stout at home.

 

[yamahakid252]

Kansas, Baylor, Tech, TCU, Texas, OSU. A good team will probably finish 6th in the league. Which just so happens to be regarded as the best league the last 2-3 years. And has had the last 2 national champs and 3 tournaments ago got a completely different team in the final game. Tough league. We have 4 guys on the roster that are capable of being somewhere on the 3 deep all conference team if they play to potential. (Cisse, Avery, Bryce, Kalib) Huge disappointment if this isn’t a tourney team.

 

[Sutton4ever]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked at the last two classes for everyone in the big 12. It's harder than it used to be to figure out who is bringing in the best classes due to all the transfers. Still I could see enough to say another 5th place finish would be a really good job. There is a lot of talent in the league. Certainly the top 4 of ku, bu, ut and tt are fairly loaded but other than ksu and wvu, I'm not sure we can say with certainty we're that far ahead of the rest. And wvu has a hall of fame coach which means something. I'm less optimistic than I was....but go pokes let's see what happens.

Last year, Kansas won the whole thing without having any surefire 5 star kids. Maybe Remi Martin was out of high school? We had 2 5-star guys and a handful of some 4-star guys.

 

[POPOKE]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked at the last two classes for everyone in the big 12. It's harder than it used to be to figure out who is bringing in the best classes due to all the transfers. Still I could see enough to say another 5th place finish would be a really good job. There is a lot of talent in the league. Certainly the top 4 of ku, bu, ut and tt are fairly loaded but other than ksu and wvu, I'm not sure we can say with certainty we're that far ahead of the rest. And wvu has a hall of fame coach which means something. I'm less optimistic than I was....but go pokes let's see what happens.

Last year, Kansas won the whole thing without having any surefire 5 star kids. Maybe Remi Martin was out of high school? We had 2 5-star guys and a handful of some 4-star guys.

Remy Martin was a 5 star
McCormack was around the 30-40 ranked recruit coming out of high school
Jalen Wilson was around the 50 ranked prospect coming out of high school
Braun was a 4 star
Agbaji was a 4 star
They also transfers that were really good at previous schools like Yesufu and Coleman Lands

Our roster has some star power, but it’s still not on the same level as KU.

 

[Sutton4ever]

Remy Martin was a 5 star
McCormack was around the 30-40 ranked recruit coming out of high school
Jalen Wilson was around the 50 ranked prospect coming out of high school
Braun was a 4 star
Agbaji was a 4 star
They also transfers that were really good at previous schools like Yesufu and Coleman Lands

Our roster has some star power, but it’s still not on the same level as KU.

Ice was a 4 year starter and had previously received some big 12 honors
Cisse and Thompson were 5 stars
AA, Kalib, Harris, Walker, MAM were 4 stars. Donovan Williams may have been a 4 star by a few publications.
Bryce Williams was a returner who avg good numbers the year before in Big 12 play

We had some talent. Last year was really disappointing how it played out when you think about it.

 

[yamahakid252]

We shot 29.5% from 3 last year. That was a killer.

 

[POPOKE]

Remy Martin was a 5 star
McCormack was around the 30-40 ranked recruit coming out of high school
Jalen Wilson was around the 50 ranked prospect coming out of high school
Braun was a 4 star
Agbaji was a 4 star
They also transfers that were really good at previous schools like Yesufu and Coleman Lands

Our roster has some star power, but it’s still not on the same level as KU.

Ice was a 4 year starter and had previously received some big 12 honors
Cisse and Thompson were 5 stars
AA, Kalib, Harris, Walker, MAM were 4 stars. Donovan Williams may have been a 4 star by a few publications.
Bryce Williams was a returner who avg good numbers the year before in Big 12 play

We had some talent. Last year was really disappointing how it played out when you think about it.

I agree about last year. My statement as to talent was regarding this coming year. Next years roster has 2 five stars (BT and Cisse), four four stars (AA, Harris if he even counts, woody if he counts and Kalib, and a fringe three/four star in Quion. It’s still a star heavy lineup, now they just need to be coached up and produce some wins. By comparison KU still has more star power.

 

[oktxpoke]

There was a comment that we have a “shade” less talent than UNC last year. I’d say it’s at least 10-12 “shades”. I’m not sure how anyone can come to the assumption we are even close. We have a few solid b and c options. Avery and Bryce are about the same consistency wise. Maybe the transfer comes in and is the guy to push us forward. Cisse is great defensively. Im just not sure MB knows how to develop a team. He’s great with the players and he’s extremely inspiring. However, it’s smarter to play for a coach that might be a little crankier but will get you some Ws

That’s said. It’s too early to fire him. He needs to be given some time to sink or swim. He doesn’t have any head coaching experience and hopefully he gets better and better. If he doesn’t, hopefully we learn that we need to poke around smaller schools and get guys with head coaching experience.

 

[Justin]

I have been very surprised at how Coach B has had difficulty attracting any big talent that really pans out except Cade. I think he has been surprised at how difficult it has been to recruit to OSU and I feel like he may start listening to other schools in the future if they call.

 

[CocoCincinnati]

You left off TCU. Understandable in that we never had to discuss them but in my opinion they have the roster, the star power and a borderline HoF coach. They were a questionable call away from Sweet 16.

I know coaches and players won’t concede losses or claim wins, but who would be surprised if we took an L in those 5 road games. Then let’s say we go 3-2 in GIA. I could be talked into 2-3 and just as easy 4-1 but 3-2 seems middle.

That’s 7 losses. Now look at WVU,uo, ISU &KSt. Do we sweep? Probably not. So probably likely we go 7-1 or 6-2. That’s 8 losses in Big12 or 10-8. It wouldn’t surprise me if we stole a road win against what will probably be the top 5 road teams. But it also wouldn’t surprise me to go 2-3 to those same teams at home.

I think any way you realistically look at it our stretch ceiling is probably 11-7 and our floor is 9-9.

I hope they surprise to 12-6 or better but then you start talking about sweeping the bottom 4 and stealing wins from the top 5 on the road or being stout at home.

Also don't forget ou either. I don't know if that Groves kid is staying for a super senior year, but they have brought in a plethora of fairly high rated guards the last few years.

I think our worst case floor is lower than 9-9 but even 7-11 probably gets you on the bubble in this conference. IMHO 11-7 should be considered a huge success if that happens.

 

[OSU79]

You left off TCU. Understandable in that we never had to discuss them but in my opinion they have the roster, the star power and a borderline HoF coach. They were a questionable call away from Sweet 16.

He may have looked like one earlier in his career at Pitt, but he's only made the ncaa tournament twice in his six years at tcu. Not only not borderline HoF, but very similar to HCMB, whom many on here have already written off.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

I have been very surprised at how Coach B has had difficulty attracting any big talent that really pans out except Cade. I think he has been surprised at how difficult it has been to recruit to OSU and I feel like he may start listening to other schools in the future if they call.

For me it’s not that he has had trouble getting kids to Stillwater. It’s that he has done a poor job of evaluating basketball skill sets, basketball savvy and being able to make the pieces fit into a tr capable of competing for championships.

He got a kid from Toronto to Stillwater. He gets metroplex kids to Stillwater. He gets OK kids to Stillwater. He gets kids ready to quit the game to Stillwater. Some of them are off the charts athletically talented.

Recruiting is not about getting kids to campus. It’s about getting the right kids w the right skills to campus and then developing them and retaining them. To me that’s where he fails as a recruiter.

 

[POPOKE]

I have been very surprised at how Coach B has had difficulty attracting any big talent that really pans out except Cade. I think he has been surprised at how difficult it has been to recruit to OSU and I feel like he may start listening to other schools in the future if they call.

Yeah, I know right? Cisse sure didn’t pan out last year, it was disappointing. I was sure he’d be defensive player of the year in the conference or something like that. And AA hasn’t made an all conference team or had a taste of draft buzz, pretty disappointing. And that Ice guy sure did suck, couldn’t even be a grad transfer to another power 5 conference. He’s just had no other player success except Cade, it’s crazy.

 

[PokeJ]

I have been very surprised at how Coach B has had difficulty attracting any big talent that really pans out except Cade. I think he has been surprised at how difficult it has been to recruit to OSU and I feel like he may start listening to other schools in the future if they call.

For me it’s not that he has had trouble getting kids to Stillwater. It’s that he has done a poor job of evaluating basketball skill sets, basketball savvy and being able to make the pieces fit into a tr capable of competing for championships.

He got a kid from Toronto to Stillwater. He gets metroplex kids to Stillwater. He gets OK kids to Stillwater. He gets kids ready to quit the game to Stillwater. Some of them are off the charts athletically talented.

Recruiting is not about getting kids to campus. It’s about getting the right kids w the right skills to campus and then developing them and retaining them. To me that’s where he fails as a recruiter.

Agreed. You can question a lot of things about Couch B but recruiting isn’t one of them.


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