all things stitt

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llcoolw

Territorial Marshal
Feb 7, 2005
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#61
Would love to see teachers start to be paid off of their performance instead of off of years of teaching, this is the most requested change I have heard of from the teachers I know including my wife.
7 years ago, 74% Americans thought the earth revolves around the sun. Even less realized the sun is a star. I don’t expect them to site the inclination of the planet but cmon man. If 1/4 of us don’t understand seasons or what hydrogen does, how can we move forward? Your wife has a thankless task ahead of her.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/what-americans-dont-know-about-science/283864/
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
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Sep 9, 2007
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#62
Would love to see teachers start to be paid off of their performance instead of off of years of teaching, this is the most requested change I have heard of from the teachers I know including my wife.
Merit based pay is one of those things that sounds great on the surface but gets really muddy when you start to get into the details of it. What metric would they use to determine the merit? Are we just looking at test scores or individual student gains? What if students had a terrible teacher the year before which resulted in them starting the year off at a lower level than they should have? Does the new teacher get punished if the students don't meet the mark at the end of the year despite starting off behind? Does it take into consideration the type of students the teachers have (ESL kids, poverty levels, rural/urban)? There's WAY more to consider here than "did they pass EOY exams"... Plus if you rely to heavily on test scores then the incentive is only from students learning how to take a test, not actually learning. What if a kid knows the material but folds under the pressure of a test? What about non-classroom teachers like specials and title instructors?

All of my questions above are based on issues that my wife has experienced during her last decade of teaching.
 

snuffy

Calf fries are the original sack lunch.
Staff
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Feb 28, 2007
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Oklahoma
#63
Merit based pay is one of those things that sounds great on the surface but gets really muddy when you start to get into the details of it. What metric would they use to determine the merit? Are we just looking at test scores or individual student gains? What if students had a terrible teacher the year before which resulted in them starting the year off at a lower level than they should have? Does the new teacher get punished if the students don't meet the mark at the end of the year despite starting off behind? Does it take into consideration the type of students the teachers have (ESL kids, poverty levels, rural/urban)? There's WAY more to consider here than "did they pass EOY exams"... Plus if you rely to heavily on test scores then the incentive is only from students learning how to take a test, not actually learning. What if a kid knows the material but folds under the pressure of a test? What about non-classroom teachers like specials and title instructors?

All of my questions above are based on issues that my wife has experienced during her last decade of teaching.
Not to mention that what home life does the child have detriments how well and much they can learn, are they focusing on school or surviving, is a freshman by us a king like a kid, working a job to put food on the table or is the parent to a sibling. All of these affect grades.
 

oks10

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#64
Not to mention that what home life does the child have detriments how well and much they can learn, are they focusing on school or surviving, is a freshman by us a king like a kid, working a job to put food on the table or is the parent to a sibling. All of these affect grades.
Yeah, that's a sub category of "poverty level" that I didn't think to spell out.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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#65
Yeah, that's a sub category of "poverty level" that I didn't think to spell out.
25 yrs ago my wife as a 1st yr teacher taught 2nd grade in rural Oklahoma in a hall w no desks or blackboard. 3 of her students lived in an abandoned bus, a car and a tent. 5 of her students had no running water. Her students may not have had the best test scores (I have no idea), but they had access to clothes, shoes, mittens, combs/brushes, toothbrushes and snacks/fruit/juice boxes.

By any academic metric employed to measure teacher performance my wife and many like her would be lowest paid bc people who put their kids in private schools think they know what’s best for public education. I can promise you these conditions are not one offs across Oklahoma. There are so many giving called people who go into classrooms each morning having to be nurturer, nutritionist, provider, protector and if they have time educator.

Are there some who coast? Absolutely. But merit based pay while it sounds like a great reform is the easy way out and will only push more great people out of the education space when they are needed now more than ever.
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
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#66
Are there some who coast? Absolutely. But merit based pay while it sounds like a great reform is the easy way out and will only push more great people out of the education space when they are needed now more than ever.
If not out of education entirely, it will at least push them out of the schools where they're needed most.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#67
25 yrs ago my wife as a 1st yr teacher taught 2nd grade in rural Oklahoma in a hall w no desks or blackboard. 3 of her students lived in an abandoned bus, a car and a tent. 5 of her students had no running water. Her students may not have had the best test scores (I have no idea), but they had access to clothes, shoes, mittens, combs/brushes, toothbrushes and snacks/fruit/juice boxes.

By any academic metric employed to measure teacher performance my wife and many like her would be lowest paid bc people who put their kids in private schools think they know what’s best for public education. I can promise you these conditions are not one offs across Oklahoma. There are so many giving called people who go into classrooms each morning having to be nurturer, nutritionist, provider, protector and if they have time educator.

Are there some who coast? Absolutely. But merit based pay while it sounds like a great reform is the easy way out and will only push more great people out of the education space when they are needed now more than ever.
I don't think merit-based pay should be based on academic testing scores. Just like in the majority of private companies, merit-increases are based on recommendations from supervisors.

Public schools have a horrible salary system that have identical pay for teachers based solely on how many years of tenure the teacher has. Teachers not strong at their job with 10 years experience are paid exactly the same as phenomenal teachers with 10 years experience.

Principals should have the ability to reward the highest quality teacher with more pay --- yet they don't have that lever. I would love for our state legislature to grant $x millions for more teacher pay, but that incremental teacher pay is a pool of money that is rewarded on-top of salaries for merit adjustments for the best teachers. Our best teachers leaving the teaching profession, or even leaving the state, is a very real thing that is occurring.
 

andylicious

Territorial Marshal
Nov 16, 2013
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#68
I don't think merit-based pay should be based on academic testing scores. Just like in the majority of private companies, merit-increases are based on recommendations from supervisors.

Public schools have a horrible salary system that have identical pay for teachers based solely on how many years of tenure the teacher has. Teachers not strong at their job with 10 years experience are paid exactly the same as phenomenal teachers with 10 years experience.

Principals should have the ability to reward the highest quality teacher with more pay --- yet they don't have that lever. I would love for our state legislature to grant $x millions for more teacher pay, but that incremental teacher pay is a pool of money that is rewarded on-top of salaries for merit adjustments for the best teachers. Our best teachers leaving the teaching profession, or even leaving the state, is a very real thing that is occurring.
That's not necessarily true. When I was a teacher I was well above base due to what I taught. The question is does the school want to do so. It's a minimum contract for teachers, not a maximum contract.
 
Sep 22, 2011
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#69
Merit based pay is one of those things that sounds great on the surface but gets really muddy when you start to get into the details of it. What metric would they use to determine the merit? Are we just looking at test scores or individual student gains? What if students had a terrible teacher the year before which resulted in them starting the year off at a lower level than they should have? Does the new teacher get punished if the students don't meet the mark at the end of the year despite starting off behind? Does it take into consideration the type of students the teachers have (ESL kids, poverty levels, rural/urban)? There's WAY more to consider here than "did they pass EOY exams"... Plus if you rely to heavily on test scores then the incentive is only from students learning how to take a test, not actually learning. What if a kid knows the material but folds under the pressure of a test? What about non-classroom teachers like specials and title instructors?

All of my questions above are based on issues that my wife has experienced during her last decade of teaching.
They should be evaluated on their job by their boss just like every other employee on the planet. State tests should have very little, if anything to do with it, the metrics should be established at the school level and approved by the school board, along with the budget for yearly teacher raises.
 

kenny41

Territorial Marshal
Aug 28, 2006
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#70
In any line of work, if you pay people more to attract talent and hold people accountable to remove bad employees you’ll get better results. Regardless of any metric
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
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#71
In any line of work, if you pay people more to attract talent and hold people accountable to remove bad employees you’ll get better results. Regardless of any metric
Tenure is kind of a double edged sword here. It keeps principals from being able to fire bad teachers but it also protects teachers from being fired by bad principles.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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#72
They should be evaluated on their job by their boss just like every other employee on the planet. State tests should have very little, if anything to do with it, the metrics should be established at the school level and approved by the school board, along with the budget for yearly teacher raises.
2 things.
1) Do you think they are not evaluated?
2) Yearly pay raises for teachers. Now that’s funny.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#73
2 things.
1) Do you think they are not evaluated?
2) Yearly pay raises for teachers. Now that’s funny.
I'll answer.

1) In some cases --- yes, but evaluation does not come with any financial incentives.
2) Teachers do get an annual raise based on number of years working in Oklahoma public school system. All public school system that I know have a salary schedule based on years taught. You can also get slightly more if you have your masters or your doctorate. Is the annual increase significant --- absolutely not.

Wouldn't it be nice and also helping to encourage strong teachers --- to arm supervisors to distribute a pool of funds to reward their best teachers when they conduct annual evaluations so that their yearly pay increase may be a least slightly more than insignificant?
 
Sep 12, 2008
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#74
I'm sure you are aware that its not just teachers who don't get pay raises, but almost every state employee.
Most state employees will go years in between raises and never keep up with cost of living. The only way to get ahead is to job hop within the system.. switch departments and get a raise, wait a few years and repeat.

The Oklahoma Highway Patrol went 7 years without a raise, etc.. etc..

But hey at least we have good benefits..

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2013/12/09/313501.htm
 
Jan 14, 2007
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Yukon, OK
#75
I'm sure you are aware that its not just teachers who don't get pay raises, but almost every state employee.
Most state employees will go years in between raises and never keep up with cost of living. The only way to get ahead is to job hop within the system.. switch departments and get a raise, wait a few years and repeat.

The Oklahoma Highway Patrol went 7 years without a raise, etc.. etc..

But hey at least we have good benefits..

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southcentral/2013/12/09/313501.htm
Tell me about it. My agency actually has money but they still won't give out raises. I got "exceeds standards" on my review for the last several years and while we did get a bonus, no raise is in sight. We all just wonder where's the motivation to really bust our asses? The bosses either don't see or don't care.

And LOL at the benefits. The state has essentially removed any incentive to take a state job now. No pension, shitty choices for healthcare, lack of leadership. We were working remotely last year, they took that away in June. They don't care about us at all. Why would a young person want to work here??
 

Duke Silver

Find safe haven in a warm bathtub full of my jazz.
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Sep 17, 2004
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#77
Tell me about it. My agency actually has money but they still won't give out raises. I got "exceeds standards" on my review for the last several years and while we did get a bonus, no raise is in sight. We all just wonder where's the motivation to really bust our asses? The bosses either don't see or don't care.

And LOL at the benefits. The state has essentially removed any incentive to take a state job now. No pension, shitty choices for healthcare, lack of leadership. We were working remotely last year, they took that away in June. They don't care about us at all. Why would a young person want to work here??
Yep. Obamacare bent the benefits over and went in dry
 
Nov 8, 2007
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#78
And LOL at the benefits. The state has essentially removed any incentive to take a state job now. No pension, shitty choices for healthcare, lack of leadership. We were working remotely last year, they took that away in June. They don't care about us at all. Why would a young person want to work here??
Came to say the same thing. My wife is a teacher and the benefits are a joke. Her healthcare policy is covered, but it is far from what I would call a good coverage policy.
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
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#79
Came to say the same thing. My wife is a teacher and the benefits are a joke. Her healthcare policy is covered, but it is far from what I would call a good coverage policy.
I'm curious, where do you think Healthchoice is lacking? I'm not saying you're lying just curious where it's not working for you. We've never had an issue with my wife's. For us, her insurance is actually better than mine because it actually covers the stuff we use it for. Every urgent care trip she takes costs a $30 copay vs me and my kids (on my insurance) costing $120 every time until we meet deductible... To me, MY insurance is worthless because the only benefit I get is negotiated costs and free preventative. I pay 100% otherwise until I meet our deductible. If I ever meet the deductible then insurance covers 80% of most everything but the only way I'm meeting that deductible is if something really bad happens that lands someone in the hospital for several days.
 
Nov 8, 2007
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Bartlesville
#80
I'm curious, where do you think Healthchoice is lacking? I'm not saying you're lying just curious where it's not working for you. We've never had an issue with my wife's. For us, her insurance is actually better than mine because it actually covers the stuff we use it for. Every urgent care trip she takes costs a $30 copay vs me and my kids (on my insurance) costing $120 every time until we meet deductible... To me, MY insurance is worthless because the only benefit I get is negotiated costs and free preventative. I pay 100% otherwise until I meet our deductible. If I ever meet the deductible then insurance covers 80% of most everything but the only way I'm meeting that deductible is if something really bad happens that lands someone in the hospital for several days.
Big things...ie, birth of our youngest cost us over $11,000 for a natural delivery after Healthchoice. Tubes in the ears of our kids, $3000 with Healthcoice the first time around. The second time, I had a new job and the kids were on my insurance, and it was less than $500.

When we first got married I thought Healthchoice was great, but that was because I was coming from no insurance. Now that I know what good insurance is like, Healthchoice is definitely lacking. I will say however, they have increased their coverages in the last couple of years.