What was once a joke.......

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steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
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#21
The government and corporations do not favor an accumulation of wealth at the top. Name me one policy that grants the top earners a right or privilege or extra benefit not granted the citizens on the lower and lowest end the scale.

A society based on capitalism rewards those that are willing and able to take advantage of the opportunities provided. Society determines the winners (ie what is valuable to society, and to what extent, and therefore who is valuable). Individuals (with a small % of exceptions) decide (through life decisions) themselves if they are to land or remain as an occupant on the lowest end of the scale.


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Favoring is not the same as granting a right.

Lobbying and campaign financing, for example, in our system clearly favor those with wealth. The preferential tax rates of carried interest favor the wealthy. There are many other tax policies, also. Look at the policies that occurred after the GFC. Did they bail out people so they could keep their homes? Nope, they bailed out huge corporations then let others buy up the foreclosures at bargain bulk prices. Those are off the top of my head in seconds. There are books written about this.

Have you ever lived any amount of time in a foreign country? I have, and the ways that our policies favor the wealthy become evem more obvious in comparison to elsewhere. Travel beyond just a vaca here are there changes many perspectives.

The system is nowhere near that clean game of society valuing as you describe which is a big part of the problem. Look at the administrative bloat in our health care system. “Society” didn’t value the multiple layers of 6-figure administrators that weren’t needed to run a hospital 20 years ago but now are. That is policies, not society.

Just curious, do you ever actually talk to a poor person? See, I do every single day for much of my day. And, I grew up poor and now am not. I’d like to think like you that I won the game and those that didn’t take the blame for their own loss. And, believe me there are some people that make really dumb decisions like you said. But, that isn’t even close to all of it. And, even if it were, for those born with some deficit whether that is lower intelligence, an abusive upbringing, or a physical deficit they can’t overcome, just how shitty do you think their lives should be because of it? (Spare me the “but they have a phone...” diatribe too please). Saying that they all chose it is like telling some 5’7” kid he chose not to be a professional basketball player by not practicing. While true he wasn’t getting there without practice, that is not all of it.

Now, go ahead and insult my intelligence and tell me I don’t know what I am talking about. I’m used to that now. I know you value one opinion on this board.

You probably won’t get a response today. I think there might be some money to be made today looking at the fear that is coming out.
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,446
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oklahoma city
#22
Dude, you act like nobody earns their spot on the wealth scale. Instead you seem to think it’s assigned by some entity.

Weird.


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And you act like life is a foot race that is perfectly fair and equal at the starting line so the winner must be the best runner therefore should get all the spoils. Also weird.

Should we continue battling straw men or can we end it there?
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
9,230
4,078
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50
#24
If you extend this chart to present day it jumps to 47%. There's no way anyone can argue the fact that our overall population isn't becoming more & more dependent on the government & redistribution of wealth.

View attachment 78116
Wouldn't the other way to look at that be if the policies of the government and corporations did not favor the concentration of wealth at the top then the others would not be forced to be dependent on the goverment?

I'm just guessing that most people would be quick to give up their government assistance and small tax rates for the massive raise they would have gotten had their income increased at a 226% rate instead of 47% over decades..
The government and corporations do not favor an accumulation of wealth at the top. Name me one policy that grants the top earners a right or privilege or extra benefit not granted the citizens on the lower and lowest end the scale.

A society based on capitalism rewards those that are willing and able to take advantage of the opportunities provided. Society determines the winners (ie what is valuable to society, and to what extent, and therefore who is valuable). Individuals (with a small % of exceptions) decide (through life decisions) themselves if they are to land or remain as an occupant on the lowest end of the scale.


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Capitalism means that businesses want people to have money, to buy their stuff.

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Oct 30, 2007
3,829
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#27
And, the post I responded to was envying people not having to pay income tax because they are too poor.
I don't envy the impoverished because they don't pay taxes. I worry about the fact that our population is becoming more & more dependent on others. I also worry about the shift in attitude we're seeing towards entitlement. We're seeing that shift everywhere. Look at college athletics. Many athletes will decide to transfer if they aren't playing by the end of their freshman seasons. Very few want to earn the right to play, they just feel entitled to playing time.

What are your thoughts on the Tytler cycle and the implication that increased dependence will eventually lead to an authoritarian government? Are you worried about the increased dependence we've seen over the past few decades?
 
Sep 29, 2011
982
199
593
60
Breckenridge, CO
#28
The government and corporations do not favor an accumulation of wealth at the top. Name me one policy that grants the top earners a right or privilege or extra benefit not granted the citizens on the lower and lowest end the scale.

A society based on capitalism rewards those that are willing and able to take advantage of the opportunities provided. Society determines the winners (ie what is valuable to society, and to what extent, and therefore who is valuable). Individuals (with a small % of exceptions) decide (through life decisions) themselves if they are to land or remain as an occupant on the lowest end of the scale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Favoring is not the same as granting a right.

Lobbying and campaign financing, for example, in our system clearly favor those with wealth. The preferential tax rates of carried interest favor the wealthy. There are many other tax policies, also. Look at the policies that occurred after the GFC. Did they bail out people so they could keep their homes? Nope, they bailed out huge corporations then let others buy up the foreclosures at bargain bulk prices. Those are off the top of my head in seconds. There are books written about this.

Have you ever lived any amount of time in a foreign country? I have, and the ways that our policies favor the wealthy become evem more obvious in comparison to elsewhere. Travel beyond just a vaca here are there changes many perspectives.

The system is nowhere near that clean game of society valuing as you describe which is a big part of the problem. Look at the administrative bloat in our health care system. “Society” didn’t value the multiple layers of 6-figure administrators that weren’t needed to run a hospital 20 years ago but now are. That is policies, not society.

Just curious, do you ever actually talk to a poor person? See, I do every single day for much of my day. And, I grew up poor and now am not. I’d like to think like you that I won the game and those that didn’t take the blame for their own loss. And, believe me there are some people that make really dumb decisions like you said. But, that isn’t even close to all of it. And, even if it were, for those born with some deficit whether that is lower intelligence, an abusive upbringing, or a physical deficit they can’t overcome, just how shitty do you think their lives should be because of it? (Spare me the “but they have a phone...” diatribe too please). Saying that they all chose it is like telling some 5’7” kid he chose not to be a professional basketball player by not practicing. While true he wasn’t getting there without practice, that is not all of it.

Now, go ahead and insult my intelligence and tell me I don’t know what I am talking about. I’m used to that now. I know you value one opinion on this board.

You probably won’t get a response today. I think there might be some money to be made today looking at the fear that is coming out.
Okay, let’s use your word - favor.
Now, who gets the favor and who gets the bill? (BTW, I’m still waiting on my first favor while sitting next to a drawer full of bills).

Family Planning
Consolidated Health Centers
Transitional Cash and Medical Services for Refugees
State Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP)
Voluntary Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit — Low Income Subsidy
Medicaid
Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program
Breast/Cervical Cancer Early Detection
Maternal and Child Health Block Grant
Indian Health Service
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
Additional Child Tax Credit
Earned Income Tax Credit (refundable component)
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
School Breakfast Program (free/reduced price components)
National School Lunch Program (free/reduced price components)
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)
Early Reading First
Rural Education Achievement Program
Mathematics and Science Partnerships
Improving Teacher Quality State Grants
Academic Competitiveness and Smart Grant Program
Single-Family Rural Housing Loans
Rural Rental Assistance Program
Water and Waste Disposal for Rural Communities
Public Works and Economic Development
Supportive Housing for the Elderly
Supportive Housing for Persons with Disabilities
Section 8 Project-Based Rental Assistance
Community Development Block Grants
Homeless Assistance Grants
Home Investment Partnerships Program (HOME)
Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS (HOPWA)
Public Housing
Indian Housing Block Grants
Section 8 Housing Choice Vouchers
Neighborhood Stabilization Program
Weatherization Assistance Program
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)
Food Program Nutrition Assistance for Puerto Rico
The Emergency Food Assistance Program (TEFAP)
Nutrition Program for the Elderly
Indian Education
Adult Basic Education Grants to States
Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant
Education for the Disadvantaged
Grants to Local Educational Agencies (Title I-A)
Title I Migrant Education Program
Higher Education — Institutional Aid and Developing Institutions
Federal Work-Study
Federal TRIO Programs
Federal Pell Grants
Education for Homeless Children and Youth
21st Century Community Learning Centers
Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs (GEAR-UP)
Child Support Enforcement
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (social services)
Community Services Block Grant
Child Care and Development Fund
Head Start HHS
Developmental Disabilities Support and Advocacy Grants
Foster Care
Adoption Assistance
Social Services Block Grant
Chafee Foster Care Independence Program
Emergency Food and Shelter Program
Legal Services Corporation
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) (employment and training component)
Senior Community Service Employment Program
Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Adult Activities
Social Services and Targeted Assistance for Refugees
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (employment and training)
Foster Grandparents
Job Corps
Grants to States for Low-Income Housing in Lieu of Low-Income Housing Credit Allocations
Tax Credit Assistance Program
Older Americans Act Grants for Supportive Services and Senior Centers
Older Americans Act Family Caregiver Program
Indian Human Services


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Well

Cowboy
A/V Subscriber
Dec 17, 2009
626
262
1,613
#29
Name me one policy that grants the top earners a right or privilege or extra benefit not granted the citizens on the lower and lowest end the scale.
Congressional health care, Congressional exemption from certain laws, Insider information, Governmental contracts, Governmental defense contracts, Bailouts, legislative influence, tax avoidance, employment preference,
 
Last edited:
Oct 30, 2007
3,829
3,305
1,743
#30
Dude, you act like nobody earns their spot on the wealth scale. Instead you seem to think it’s assigned by some entity.

Weird.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/on-retirement/articles/7-myths-about-millionaires
A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made. Only 12 percent inherited significant money (at least 10 percent of their wealth), and most did not grow up in exclusive country club neighborhoods.

The environment you're born into can be advantageous to having financial success, but I'm not sure those advantages are as drastic as many people think.
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,446
32,978
1,743
oklahoma city
#31
I don't envy the impoverished because they don't pay taxes. I worry about the fact that our population is becoming more & more dependent on others. I also worry about the shift in attitude we're seeing towards entitlement. We're seeing that shift everywhere. Look at college athletics. Many athletes will decide to transfer if they aren't playing by the end of their freshman seasons. Very few want to earn the right to play, they just feel entitled to playing time.

What are your thoughts on the Tytler cycle and the implication that increased dependence will eventually lead to an authoritarian government? Are you worried about the increased dependence we've seen over the past few decades?
Right, I know you don't envy them. Likewise, I don't envy people that have more wealth than me yet every time I mention that my policy opinion is different than others they condescendingly claim it is due to envy.

Before answering your question about the cycle. Do you feel that someone that does not earn enough income to pay income tax is dependent on the government? Maybe you could define what dependent on the government means to you. Because, taken to the extreme, nearly all of us went to a university that is heavily subsidized by the government. If that did not exist and I would have had to pay private school prices I would likely not have gone. So, is that dependent on the government?
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,446
32,978
1,743
oklahoma city
#32
Okay, let’s use your word - favor.
Now, who gets the favor and who gets the bill? (BTW, I’m still waiting on my first favor while sitting next to a drawer full of bills).

Family Planning
Consolidated Health Centers
Transitional Cash and Medical Services for Refugees
State Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP)
Voluntary Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit — Low Income Subsidy
Medicaid
Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program
Breast/Cervical Cancer Early Detection
Maternal and Child Health Block Grant
Indian Health Service
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
Additional Child Tax Credit
Earned Income Tax Credit (refundable component)
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
School Breakfast Program (free/reduced price components)
National School Lunch Program (free/reduced price components)
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC)
Early Reading First
Rural Education Achievement Program
Mathematics and Science Partnerships
Improving Teacher Quality State Grants
Academic Competitiveness and Smart Grant Program
Single-Family Rural Housing Loans
Rural Rental Assistance Program
Water and Waste Disposal for Rural Communities
Public Works and Economic Development
Supportive Housing for the Elderly
Supportive Housing for Persons with Disabilities
Section 8 Project-Based Rental Assistance
Community Development Block Grants
Homeless Assistance Grants
Home Investment Partnerships Program (HOME)
Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS (HOPWA)
Public Housing
Indian Housing Block Grants
Section 8 Housing Choice Vouchers
Neighborhood Stabilization Program
Weatherization Assistance Program
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)
Food Program Nutrition Assistance for Puerto Rico
The Emergency Food Assistance Program (TEFAP)
Nutrition Program for the Elderly
Indian Education
Adult Basic Education Grants to States
Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant
Education for the Disadvantaged
Grants to Local Educational Agencies (Title I-A)
Title I Migrant Education Program
Higher Education — Institutional Aid and Developing Institutions
Federal Work-Study
Federal TRIO Programs
Federal Pell Grants
Education for Homeless Children and Youth
21st Century Community Learning Centers
Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs (GEAR-UP)
Child Support Enforcement
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (social services)
Community Services Block Grant
Child Care and Development Fund
Head Start HHS
Developmental Disabilities Support and Advocacy Grants
Foster Care
Adoption Assistance
Social Services Block Grant
Chafee Foster Care Independence Program
Emergency Food and Shelter Program
Legal Services Corporation
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) (employment and training component)
Senior Community Service Employment Program
Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Adult Activities
Social Services and Targeted Assistance for Refugees
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (employment and training)
Foster Grandparents
Job Corps
Grants to States for Low-Income Housing in Lieu of Low-Income Housing Credit Allocations
Tax Credit Assistance Program
Older Americans Act Grants for Supportive Services and Senior Centers
Older Americans Act Family Caregiver Program
Indian Human Services


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Yep, taking all of those and the average payment per recipient is $404 per month.

Now, take the corporate side of the trough and tally up those billions then see what the average payment is. I'm guessing the Solyndra folks made a little over $404. I'm guessing the Iowa corn farmers (with their higher than average incomes) get a bit more than $404. But, way easier to blame the poor. https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/corporate-welfare-lives

BTW, I do not like all those programs. As we have discussed before, they should nearly all go away (health care is a separate beast) in favor of a UBI.
 

Jostate

CPTNQUIRK called me a greenhorn
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
19,424
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#33
Wouldn't the other way to look at that be if the policies of the government and corporations did not favor the concentration of wealth at the top then the others would not be forced to be dependent on the goverment?

I'm just guessing that most people would be quick to give up their government assistance and small tax rates for the massive raise they would have gotten had their income increased at a 226% rate instead of 47% over decades..
Is this adjusted for inflation?
 
Sep 29, 2011
982
199
593
60
Breckenridge, CO
#34
I don't envy the impoverished because they don't pay taxes. I worry about the fact that our population is becoming more & more dependent on others. I also worry about the shift in attitude we're seeing towards entitlement. We're seeing that shift everywhere. Look at college athletics. Many athletes will decide to transfer if they aren't playing by the end of their freshman seasons. Very few want to earn the right to play, they just feel entitled to playing time.

What are your thoughts on the Tytler cycle and the implication that increased dependence will eventually lead to an authoritarian government? Are you worried about the increased dependence we've seen over the past few decades?
Right, I know you don't envy them. Likewise, I don't envy people that have more wealth than me yet every time I mention that my policy opinion is different than others they condescendingly claim it is due to envy.

Before answering your question about the cycle. Do you feel that someone that does not earn enough income to pay income tax is dependent on the government? Maybe you could define what dependent on the government means to you. Because, taken to the extreme, nearly all of us went to a university that is heavily subsidized by the government. If that did not exist and I would have had to pay private school prices I would likely not have gone. So, is that dependent on the government?
In the end, we’re all dependent on government to provide services and protection. But a large portion pay nothing, or next to nothing for the services, protection and tangible benefits they receive. And then there’s a large portion that generally pays there proportionate share for government provided services and protection. And then there’s a smaller portion that pay significantly more than their proportionate share of government provided services and protection. And there’s a smaller portion yet that pays greater than 100x their proportionate share of government provided services and protection. And there’s even a smaller portion yet that pays greater than 1000x their proportionate share of government provided services and protection.

You get the drift.

On one hand there are those that start their day believing people have a “right” to the government provided services, protection and benefits without regard to their personal contribution.

On the other hand there are those that start their day believing they have a “right” to enjoy the benefits of their labors while acknowledging their overwhelming obligation to pay for the services and protection provided the government.

Generally speaking, people willingly choose which hand conducts their daily lives.


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Deere Poke

I'd rather be in the woods
A/V Subscriber
Feb 13, 2014
12,238
10,400
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52
Bixby-Bristow OK
#35
Without a strong and prosperous middle class society collapses and that's when Hitlers and Stalins come into power. The middle class earning trends for the U.S. are disturbing. They are also the reason for the rise of people like Bernie. Only fools or tyrants who want to take over a society don't want to see a prosperous middle class growing wealthier in a capitalist society.
 
Oct 30, 2007
3,829
3,305
1,743
#37
Do you feel that someone that does not earn enough income to pay income tax is dependent on the government? Maybe you could define what dependent on the government means to you. Because, taken to the extreme, nearly all of us went to a university that is heavily subsidized by the government. If that did not exist and I would have had to pay private school prices I would likely not have gone. So, is that dependent on the government?
I don't really think of people as being dependent on the government. The government is just a conduit for redistribution of wealth. The upper 20% pays nearly 90% of federal taxes. So the majority of our population benefits from redistribution of wealth to some extent.

I look at dependence from a very simple perspective. I feel like we all have a responsibility to contribute to society to the best of our ability. Many people have circumstances that don't allow them to contribute nearly as much as others, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it bothers me to see an increasing percentage of our population unable or unwilling to make that contribution.

You benefited from redistribution of wealth when you took advantage of educational subsidies. Now you pay federal taxes to provide this benefit to others. That's an equitable exchange. That's vastly different from what the far left is proposing. They want to tax the rich to pay off student loan debt & provide free college education to all.
 
Last edited:

Bowers2

Stackin' Joe's Cups
A/V Subscriber
Jul 31, 2006
7,587
5,600
1,743
Edmond
#38
Without a strong and prosperous middle class society collapses and that's when Hitlers and Stalins come into power. The middle class earning trends for the U.S. are disturbing. They are also the reason for the rise of people like Bernie. Only fools or tyrants who want to take over a society don't want to see a prosperous middle class growing wealthier in a capitalist society.
Yep. The same issues that brought us Trump have also made Bernie popular. People have grown tired of the political elite and their corporate bosses fucking the middle class for decades. They just have different ideas on the best way forward. Unfortunately, we the people haven't figured out that both are to blame. They've got one side convinced it's the billion-dollar corporations' fault and the other side convinced it's entirely the governments fault. As long as they keep us separated with bullshit issues, they can stay in power. When Bernie bros and Trumpboners learn to work together, the political elite are the ones who will be fucked. I don't think that'll happen. Fox News and CNN pretty much have everyone solidly in their corners/voting blocks.
 
Mar 11, 2006
1,982
1,495
1,743
#39
Congressional health care, Congressional exemption from certain laws, Insider information, Governmental contracts, Governmental defense contracts, Bailouts, legislative influence, tax avoidance, employment preference,
Insider information is a policy?
 
Sep 29, 2011
982
199
593
60
Breckenridge, CO
#40
https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/on-retirement/articles/7-myths-about-millionaires
A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made. Only 12 percent inherited significant money (at least 10 percent of their wealth), and most did not grow up in exclusive country club neighborhoods.

The environment you're born into can be advantageous to having financial success, but I'm not sure those advantages are as drastic as many people think.
My personal experience tells me the number is greater than 88%. But I suspect nobody is gonna believe any of my anecdotal evidence.