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Deere Poke

I'd rather be in the woods
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"Government as a force for good" is unique to the 20th century. The entire history of human government is one of subjugation and oppression.
Actually it started long before that. It started with the birth of capitalism. With capitalism governments learned they need to give their citizens freedom and protection, it would in turn make them more money and power.

In pretty much every economic model before capitalism oppression was necessary. Socialist policy is simply all of these oppressive models before it maturing so that it's more palatable to the public. But it's definition is still basically the same as all those before it. The government controls everything and gives the people what they feel they need. Oh wait I mean they redistribute it equally among the people. LOL.
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
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Actually it started long before that. It started with the birth of capitalism. With capitalism governments learned they need to give their citizens freedom and protection, it would in turn make them more money and power.

In pretty much every economic model before capitalism oppression was necessary. Socialist policy is simply all of these oppressive models before it maturing so that it's more palatable to the public. But it's definition is still basically the same as all those before it. The government controls everything and gives the people what they feel they need. Oh wait I mean they redistribute it equally among the people. LOL.
Giving citizens "more freedom and protection" isn't what I'm talking about. Laissez faire capitalism means government gets out of the way, government would interfere with people looking out for their economic interests.. I'm talking about Progressivism, which holds government as a force for good, progress, and reordering society.
 

Deere Poke

I'd rather be in the woods
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Giving citizens "more freedom and protection" isn't what I'm talking about. Laissez faire capitalism means government gets out of the way, government would interfere with people looking out for their economic interests.. I'm talking about Progressivism, which holds government as a force for good, progress, and reordering society.
I was talking about the point when governments stopped being about subjugation and oppression. That started happening with the birth of capitalism.

The irony with Progressivism is in reality it brings back the subjugation and oppression capitalism has pushed back.
 

RxCowboy

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I was talking about the point when governments stopped being about subjugation and oppression. That started happening with the birth of capitalism.

The irony with Progressivism is in reality it brings back the subjugation and oppression capitalism has pushed back.
They have never stopped subjugating and oppressing. That's why our constitution defines and limits powers of the government, and protects rights from the government rather than granting them.
 

RxCowboy

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ZTE buys a lot of U.S. parts.
Yes, and they've blackmailed our tech companies into disclosing tech secrets, and have been selling illegally to rogue and terrorist states. It's difficult for me to see what we gain by lifting the fines and sanctions against them. Hopefully, he's using it as a tool in the negotiations with the NORKs.
 

Binman4OSU

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ZTE buys a lot of U.S. parts.
$2.3 Billion in exports from 211 US companies in 2017 per ZTE execs is what they buy from US suppliers....about 25% of their total parts.

What I don't like is the message this seems to send. You can violate US trade sanctions and supply terrorist and rogue states...as long as your spending $$ in the US we will work with you so you keep sending $$ to the US.

After ZTE plead guilty to shipping US products to Iran they were fined $1.2 billion and banned from doing business with American suppliers for 7 years just last month. ZTE also agreed to dismiss 4 senior execs and discipline 35 others but they have not followed through on that yet

it is also of note that the Heads of the NSA, FBI, and CIA have all cited concerns that ZTE products are used to spy on US consumers and collect data that is shared with the Chinese Govt.
 

RxCowboy

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$2.3 Billion in exports from 211 US companies in 2017 per ZTE execs is what they buy from US suppliers....about 25% of their total parts.

What I don't like is the message this seems to send. You can violate US trade sanctions and supply terrorist and rogue states...as long as your spending $$ in the US we will work with you so you keep sending $$ to the US.

After ZTE plead guilty to shipping US products to Iran they were fined $1.2 billion and banned from doing business with American suppliers for 7 years just last month. ZTE also agreed to dismiss 4 senior execs and discipline 35 others but they have not followed through on that yet

it is also of note that the Heads of the NSA, FBI, and CIA have all cited concerns that ZTE products are used to spy on US consumers and collect data that is shared with the Chinese Govt.
agreed.gif