Trump made us care

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Rixaroo

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#22
It was pretty close in terms of the states in question that swayed the election. Many irregularities have been reported in those states.

But NO, I don't think the election was "rigged," but I do think all the changes in voter laws leading up to the election made it easier to cheat on than in past elections. The massive numbers of mail in ballots made the election workers jobs harder and voter verification much more easy to get by without scrutiny of each ballot. Reported late night ballot dumps and vote count stops also led to voter scrutiny. Compared to four years ago it had FAR more participation, in fact it had more votes cast than in any POTUS election prior to it, when logic said it "might" have less due to covid. Honestly I don't care all that much anymore because my future isn't tied to the leader of the United States of America, but it is something we should fix IF there is problems with it. I'm not a Trump fan, but I hope the Georgia elections go to the R's so that we have a balance in governance, because I certainly don't trust the Dem's to do any better than the R's if they are able to force their agenda. It's also important to keep in mind that we are in no way in lock step in our opinions on government as a nation. Inferring that the election didn't highlight even more just how divided the nation is and how much we need to reach out to the other side to heal and find balance doesn't help anyone. Your state, assuming you are from Oklahoma, voted for the current POTUS in huge margins with him winning every county. Many other states voted in a similar fashion. IMHO, it's incumbent on the people of the nation to attempt to find common ground moving forward rather than constant division, and a fair and balanced look at elections and election laws seeking some constitutional mild reformation of the process might be a good idea to reduce election scrutiny and distrust in the future. It doesn't matter what you and I think, there are 10's of millions of Americans who think the election was fraudulent and those concerns need to be addressed to provide more faith in the future of the system. That's all I'm saying.
Good post!

Yeah, whether or not there was major malfeasance in this election, there absolutely needs to be something done to regain the trust of the American people in our elections.
 

cowboyinexile

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#23
It was pretty close in terms of the states in question that swayed the election. Many irregularities have been reported in those states.

But NO, I don't think the election was "rigged," but I do think all the changes in voter laws leading up to the election made it easier to cheat on than in past elections. The massive numbers of mail in ballots made the election workers jobs harder and voter verification much more easy to get by without scrutiny of each ballot. Reported late night ballot dumps and vote count stops also led to voter scrutiny. Compared to four years ago it had FAR more participation, in fact it had more votes cast than in any POTUS election prior to it, when logic said it "might" have less due to covid. Honestly I don't care all that much anymore because my future isn't tied to the leader of the United States of America, but it is something we should fix IF there is problems with it. I'm not a Trump fan, but I hope the Georgia elections go to the R's so that we have a balance in governance, because I certainly don't trust the Dem's to do any better than the R's if they are able to force their agenda. It's also important to keep in mind that we are in no way in lock step in our opinions on government as a nation. Inferring that the election didn't highlight even more just how divided the nation is and how much we need to reach out to the other side to heal and find balance doesn't help anyone. Your state, assuming you are from Oklahoma, voted for the current POTUS in huge margins with him winning every county. Many other states voted in a similar fashion. IMHO, it's incumbent on the people of the nation to attempt to find common ground moving forward rather than constant division, and a fair and balanced look at elections and election laws seeking some constitutional mild reformation of the process might be a good idea to reduce election scrutiny and distrust in the future. It doesn't matter what you and I think, there are 10's of millions of Americans who think the election was fraudulent and those concerns need to be addressed to provide more faith in the future of the system. That's all I'm saying.
You touched on something that I hope gets addressed.

You are going to see more mail in/early voting options going forward. For most of the population its so much more convenient. I voted in September right when early voting was available-took me 5 minutes and I was done.

But my vote may not have been counted until my polling location closed in November. That was a problem in several states and caused some of the delays that happened. I don't know if this was by luck or design but it gave Trump an opening to question the legitimacy of the election. If we count the early ballots as they arrive or at least start when the precincts open then what is perceived as a "vote dump" doesn't happen. If we see states called on election night like we are used to then the president doesn't have an opportunity to gaslight his supporters. He still throws a tantrum but hopefully more people see it for what it is.
 

oks10

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#24
You touched on something that I hope gets addressed.

You are going to see more mail in/early voting options going forward. For most of the population its so much more convenient. I voted in September right when early voting was available-took me 5 minutes and I was done.

But my vote may not have been counted until my polling location closed in November. That was a problem in several states and caused some of the delays that happened. I don't know if this was by luck or design but it gave Trump an opening to question the legitimacy of the election. If we count the early ballots as they arrive or at least start when the precincts open then what is perceived as a "vote dump" doesn't happen. If we see states called on election night like we are used to then the president doesn't have an opportunity to gaslight his supporters. He still throws a tantrum but hopefully more people see it for what it is.
I'm definitely not against mail-in ballots. Its the 21st century, seems like we should have progressed a bit further than having to standing in line to vote in person. Do any states currently count their early/mail in votes prior to election day, and if they do are those numbers released prior to election day or are the kept under wraps until election day?
 

Rack

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#25
You touched on something that I hope gets addressed.

You are going to see more mail in/early voting options going forward. For most of the population its so much more convenient. I voted in September right when early voting was available-took me 5 minutes and I was done.

But my vote may not have been counted until my polling location closed in November. That was a problem in several states and caused some of the delays that happened. I don't know if this was by luck or design but it gave Trump an opening to question the legitimacy of the election. If we count the early ballots as they arrive or at least start when the precincts open then what is perceived as a "vote dump" doesn't happen. If we see states called on election night like we are used to then the president doesn't have an opportunity to gaslight his supporters. He still throws a tantrum but hopefully more people see it for what it is.
Agreed, only we need to treat mail in ballots like tax returns in terms of security of our votes and identity....just as we need to treat in person voting the same. In a ever changing world that is increasing digitalized and computerized we need to have nearly fail safe security for our voting so that every citizen can vote, but non-citizens and foreign players cannot vote or mess with the votes. This helps every American to have a much greater trust in the system. IMHO, a bi-partisan taskforce should look at future elections and how we can make them more secure from an outside player, which was accused in the Russian conspiracy theory in 2016, as well as the accusations of voter fraud theory in this 2020 election.
 

Rixaroo

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#27
I'm definitely not against mail-in ballots. Its the 21st century, seems like we should have progressed a bit further than having to standing in line to vote in person. Do any states currently count their early/mail in votes prior to election day, and if they do are those numbers released prior to election day or are the kept under wraps until election day?
Florida counts before, but doesn't release until Election Day.
 
Oct 29, 2016
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#28
Analysis: How Trump made people care about politics again
https://apple.news/AXkdKu7r5RAaeQHOehmt5dg
10:01 AM EST January 2, 2021

Love him or hate him, President Donald Trump made most Americans feel strongly about politics in a way no politician has in our lifetimes. Record numbers of Americans felt strongly favorable or unfavorable toward Trump during his time in office. (The strongly favorable and unfavorable was 71% in a Fox News poll last month, for instance.)

Trump's presidency drove historic turnout and record donations to political campaigns in a country whose voters have often shown a disinterest in politics.


Twenty-four years ago, America's political apathy seemed to reach a record high. Just 51.7% of the voting-eligible population cast a ballot, according to the US Elections Project. That was the lowest since 18-year-olds got the vote before the 1972 election. In raw numbers, a little more than 96 million voters decided to take part in that year's presidential election.

The 2020 campaign, by comparison, had a little less than 160 million voters participate. With population growth, the US Elections Project estimates a turnout rate of 66.7% of the voting-eligible population.

It's difficult to understate what an achievement this turnout rate is. A 66.7% turnout rate shattered the previous high since 18-year-old's got the vote of 61.6% in 2008. (The 2008 campaign featured the election of the first Black presidential major party nominee in Barack Obama.) Turnout before 2020 never broke 140 million.

What's amazing is how far back you have to go to beat 66.7% for a turnout rate in a presidential election. There wasn't a higher turnout rate in either the 20th or 21st century.
It would be easy to think that the coronavirus pandemic caused record turnout. It may have played a role, though it's been clear for more than a year that the 2020 dynamic was going to be unique.

I noted in April 2019 -- long before the pandemic and before Democrats started voting in their primary -- that record turnout was likely because a record number of voters said that they were extremely enthusiastic about voting in the 2020 election.

The record 2020 turnout followed record midterm turnout in 2018 -- a record number where opinions of Trump were the driving factor for voters.

Half of the voter-eligible population turned out to vote in 2018. This 50.0% turnout rate was more than 13 points higher than in 2014 (36.7%). In raw numbers, nearly 120 million turned out in 2018 compared to only a little more than 80 million in 2014.

The 2018 turnout rate was by far the highest in a midterm since 18-year-olds got the vote. It had never previously topped 42% during this era.
Indeed, you have to go back more than 100 years (to 1914) to find higher turnout in a midterm election.

The strong feelings toward Trump also drove record donations to political candidates up and down the ballot.

Through November 30, 2020, the FEC reports that nearly $24 billion was raised by federal candidates, PACs and party committees during the 2020 election cycle. No other year comes anywhere close to that total. For comparison, a little more than $9 billion was raised by federal candidates, PACs and party committees during the 2016 election cycle.

Looking just at the presidential candidates, over $4 billion was taken in. Never before had more than $2 billion been raised. This cycle's record occurred even as just one side had a competitive nomination fight, unlike, in 2008, when the previous record had been set. Keep in mind, though, that about $1 billion of this cycle's money raised came from self-funder Michael Bloomberg.

In the House races, candidates raised $1.9 billion. Again, that's a record for any cycle. The next highest total was in 2018 with Trump in the White House. During the midterm cycle, $1.7 billion was raised by House candidates.

Before 2018, the highest total raised was just a little bit more than $1.1 billion.
In the final major elections during Trump's presidency, the fundraising train has shown no sign of stopping. The candidates for the Georgia Senate runoffs are raising ridiculous amounts. The Democrats alone are raising hundreds of millions of dollars.

The fact that candidates up and down the ballot were able to raise so much money is the
encapsulation of what the Trump era is about. The interest in elections during the past four years isn't just about Trump the individual. It's about everything around Trump and everything that can strengthen or lessen the power he has.
What will be interesting to see is what happens from here. Without Trump in the White House will political interest drop? Or have we entered a new era where more Americans care about politics.

We'll just have to wait and see.
I do believe this is called sheep mentality.
 

Midnight Toker

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#29
Amending Citizens United, IOW.
What i really advocate for is to take private money out of campaigns. Give every eligible voter a $50 voucher and they can in turn give that to the candidate of their choice. That way you dont get billionaires like betsy devos buying her way into the cabinet through campaign donations.

Just to be unbiased, the same thing happened with Obama....Oh, btw, POTUS Trump, despite all his many flaws (which are indeed many), got more votes than any President running for re-election in American history...even more than Obama got in his first election. Certainly the other side rolled out in record numbers as well, as it appears POTUS elect Joe Biden got even more votes...But partisan painting only one side of an already polarized political landscape only further divides an already unfortunately divided country. Let's all make an effort in 2021 to reach out to the other side and realize they aren't the monsters (i.e. "we the people on all sides") the confirmation bias press (on both sides) that we happen choose to consume is making them appear to be. I propose we all go on a confirmation bias fast in 2021. If the current trend in media failed due to lack of a market we would all be better off.
Just to be unbiased, the same thing happened with Obama
Lets examine that statement. The 2008 election gave us 129,446,839 total votes which was 61.6% of eligible voters. 2016 election gave us about 128,838,342 votes, which is about 60.1% of eligible voters. So, less people voted in 2016than 2008 despite the population growing by millions- that's not a strong endorsement of your first comment of this post. 2020 gave us 66% eligible voter participation. So 2008 and 2020 gave us the two highest voter participation rates in the last 60 years. That tells us how badly America wanted change after 8 years of bush and how they REALLY wanted change after 4 years of the rump.

Oh, btw, POTUS Trump, despite all his many flaws (which are indeed many), got more votes than any President running for re-election in American history...even more than Obama got in his first election.
Yes, that's how high voter participation works. Both candidates set records. But the fact that biden, a guy who likes to smell people, got a record number of votes tells us how people felt about the current administration. It's really hard to lose a reelection bid, it's rare that it happens. And all bush did was lie about no new taxes.

I personally dont have side one way or the other. It just depends on the issue, i am not a affiliated to any party. I rail on them both when they deserve it. I wish everyone would disavow their confirmation bias but the newsmedia will eat it up because they know how badly people on both sides desperately need someone on tv telling them that whatever they believe is right.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#30
I tend to believe that Trump was also a result of people caring about politics. The Republican voters in this country got sick of the Rep politicians empty promises and weak spines.

I've been saying it for four years, Trump was a symptom, not the sickness. Unfortunately all we did this election was get rid of the most egregious symptom which will make people think our government is cured. Nothing is further from the truth.
 
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#31
I'm definitely not against mail-in ballots. Its the 21st century, seems like we should have progressed a bit further than having to standing in line to vote in person. Do any states currently count their early/mail in votes prior to election day, and if they do are those numbers released prior to election day or are the kept under wraps until election day?
Colorado counts early, but doesn't announce until election day.
 
Nov 23, 2010
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#32

Midnight Toker

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#34
When is the last time you think we had a good President?

There are fans of Obama and fans of Trump. Their fans/base like what they did, but both are perceived as divisive Presidents. And the opposition party made the division even worse during their terms.

With social media fanning the flame of fake news...and “journalists” and “news organizations” not even attempting to separate opinion vs news ...I don’t see this improving anytime soon. Too many people only watch/listen/read “news” that supports their viewpoints.
I myself will probably never consider myself a fan of a politician, they work for us. They shouldnt be put on any sort of pedestal, and they arent celebrities. Looking objectively, I think obama was a good president, not to suggest i agree with every decision he made. but i think he was a good statesman, has a respectable demeanor,, brought reason and pragramatic thinking to the table, and with a few exceptions from his apology tour, he rarely if ever actually embarrassed me with his behavior, or the words he said. Zero of his advisors have been convicted of any crimes. However we have had many dozens of the closest advisors under the current administration get charged, convicted and imprisoned. And then all the pardons for people in his circle. And he was just a joke, how many world leaders or people who worked under him directly have called him or suggested that he's stupid?

I feel like he really tried, and i dont feel like trump has ever really tried his best to do anything until he found out he lost the election. And Obama's private life was not the kind of dramatic insanity we have now. never bragged about grabbing pussies, no pics of him and epstein partying, no evidence he enjoys cheating on his wife, and he's never suggested he would date his daughter. But there's plenty about him i dont like, to this day, but he is a completely 180 difference from trump; Obama had a way of being able to explain himself in a way that makes it clear he 1. knows what he's talking about and 2. Relaying the information in a way that's easy to understand. trump goes all over the place and seems like a lot of the time changes direction mid sentence. obama seems like a respectable person who I would enjoy having a beer with while talking football. I dont get that sense from trump, I'm probably too poor to even be worth talking to and i dont think i could talk football with a guy who thinks the chiefs play in kansas.

With social media fanning the flame of fake news...and “journalists” and “news organizations” not even attempting to separate opinion vs news ...I don’t see this improving anytime soon. Too many people only watch/listen/read “news” that supports their viewpoints
That's part of the problem, these newsmax, oan channels on the right, and whatever the crazy ones are on the left, those arent news channels, they arent journalists or investigators, they are people reading what they are told to read and the rest of them are just sharing their opinions. It isnt really news, it's folks editorializing one side of the story, and people just soaking it in as their gospel. it's sad. Almost makes me want for the old days in the 60s when you could believe what Walter Cronkite said.
 

Midnight Toker

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#35
Why do you ask? Is it because there is no doubt in your mind that Trump is one of the best presidents ever? If so, do you side with Alex Jones who said he likes Trump even better after listening to that disgraceful phone call he had with the Georgia Sec. of State?
It's so bizarre how people basically enable horrible behavior like this because it supports the narrative they want to come to fruition.

Anyone who believes a word alex jones says just doesnt have any actual interest in truth.

He admitted in court that he's just playing a character, and that he's a performance artist. and people like trump actually believe his conspiracy theories! he actually once said that jones' reputation is amazing.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#36
I myself will probably never consider myself a fan of a politician, they work for us. They shouldnt be put on any sort of pedestal, and they arent celebrities. Looking objectively, I think obama was a good president, not to suggest i agree with every decision he made. but i think he was a good statesman, has a respectable demeanor,, brought reason and pragramatic thinking to the table, and with a few exceptions from his apology tour, he rarely if ever actually embarrassed me with his behavior, or the words he said. Zero of his advisors have been convicted of any crimes. However we have had many dozens of the closest advisors under the current administration get charged, convicted and imprisoned. And then all the pardons for people in his circle. And he was just a joke, how many world leaders or people who worked under him directly have called him or suggested that he's stupid?

I feel like he really tried, and i dont feel like trump has ever really tried his best to do anything until he found out he lost the election. And Obama's private life was not the kind of dramatic insanity we have now. never bragged about grabbing pussies, no pics of him and epstein partying, no evidence he enjoys cheating on his wife, and he's never suggested he would date his daughter. But there's plenty about him i dont like, to this day, but he is a completely 180 difference from trump; Obama had a way of being able to explain himself in a way that makes it clear he 1. knows what he's talking about and 2. Relaying the information in a way that's easy to understand. trump goes all over the place and seems like a lot of the time changes direction mid sentence. obama seems like a respectable person who I would enjoy having a beer with while talking football. I dont get that sense from trump, I'm probably too poor to even be worth talking to and i dont think i could talk football with a guy who thinks the chiefs play in kansas.



That's part of the problem, these newsmax, oan channels on the right, and whatever the crazy ones are on the left, those arent news channels, they arent journalists or investigators, they are people reading what they are told to read and the rest of them are just sharing their opinions. It isnt really news, it's folks editorializing one side of the story, and people just soaking it in as their gospel. it's sad. Almost makes me want for the old days in the 60s when you could believe what Walter Cronkite said.
I agree with a lot of what you post, & it's usually well reasoned, & I don't follow some of the fringe sites you mentioned, but you're smarter than the bolded part.
 

Midnight Toker

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#37
I agree with a lot of what you post, & it's usually well reasoned, & I don't follow some of the fringe sites you mentioned, but you're smarter than the bolded part.
Im smarter than the bold part? i am not sure what you mean. I dont watch the news, so I dont know what the fringe channels or sites are for the left. I only know what oan and newsmax are because they get parroted by the conspiracy types so it's hard to miss.
 

CocoCincinnati

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#38
That's part of the problem, these newsmax, oan channels on the right, and whatever the crazy ones are on the left, those arent news channels, they arent journalists or investigators, they are people reading what they are told to read and the rest of them are just sharing their opinions. It isnt really news, it's folks editorializing one side of the story, and people just soaking it in as their gospel. it's sad. Almost makes me want for the old days in the 60s when you could believe what Walter Cronkite said.
This is certainly part of the problem. The other part is that too many people believe some news organizations aren't like this. They are all bad, all have an agenda, all push opinion as news, all spin the facts to push a narrative.

I lament the fact that there is not a single news source in this country that we can trust.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#39
Im smarter than the bold part? i am not sure what you mean. I dont watch the news, so I dont know what the fringe channels or sites are for the left. I only know what oan and newsmax are because they get parroted by the conspiracy types so it's hard to miss.
Advocacy journalism doesn't just exist through fringe outlets.
 

Midnight Toker

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#40
Advocacy journalism doesn't just exist through fringe outlets.
oh, alright, right on. thanks


This is certainly part of the problem. The other part is that too many people believe some news organizations aren't like this. They are all bad, all have an agenda, all push opinion as news, all spin the facts to push a narrative.

I lament the fact that there is not a single news source in this country that we can trust.
It really only got real bad over the past few years with phrases like fake news that never previously existed in the lexicon. I think the divisiveness of the current administration kind of made it go that way. Where they say something crazy and stupid, and the only way to somehow battle the disinformation is to be equally crazy and stupid on the other end. And then it devolves into having to pick between which particular bias we want to see, instead of content being discussed objectively. That's why i like the interaction of message & discussion board because you arent just seeing an editorial, you can talk about it with others and from a better opinion about an issue. It sucks that if i want to get informed about an issue i have to go read the left's version and the right's version and figure out where the real meat is. Even worse for me because i am not a leftie or rightie.