Time for BB coaching change should be about 3-4 weeks!!

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Sep 16, 2004
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I'm on board with this. Heck, even winning 4 of 9 would at least give me a sliver of hope for next season.

What I really would like to see going into next season though, is a total revamp of the offense. A system that relies less on ball screens and dribbling, and more on screens off the ball, screening for the screener, and back cuts. Against a zone, extremely quick ball reversals along the perimeter with dribble penetration timed up to use the momentum of defenders against themselves. None of this pass, hold the ball for three or four seconds, and then pass again... None of this trying to use the dribble to set up the pass. Use the pass to set up the pass.

I also don't like and don't get how much zone D we've played this year. I think MB should go back to a more traditional man defense, more along the lines of what we played primarily his first season as coach when Carroll, Solomon, and Smith were running people out of the gym the back half of that season.
I once heard Lee Manzer give a speech titled “The Game is Played Away from the Ball.” He claimed this was a saying of Eddie Sutton’s, and he applied it to work and life. It made a huge impact on me, and it spoke a lot of Sutton’s approach to basketball. I think it would do a world of good to see that reinstituted in our team.
 
Feb 18, 2009
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I'm on board with this. Heck, even winning 4 of 9 would at least give me a sliver of hope for next season.

What I really would like to see going into next season though, is a total revamp of the offense. A system that relies less on ball screens and dribbling, and more on screens off the ball, screening for the screener, and back cuts. Against a zone, extremely quick ball reversals along the perimeter with dribble penetration timed up to use the momentum of defenders against themselves. None of this pass, hold the ball for three or four seconds, and then pass again... None of this trying to use the dribble to set up the pass. Use the pass to set up the pass.

I also don't like and don't get how much zone D we've played this year. I think MB should go back to a more traditional man defense, more along the lines of what we played primarily his first season as coach when Carroll, Solomon, and Smith were running people out of the gym the back half of that season.
I think you’re seeing zone because we don’t really play man to man very well with this group. not saying we play zone well either but that’s about the only explanation for why he’s using it so much. He’s got some athletes that could make a zone pretty tough but they’ve got to buy in. Same for man to man to be honest.
 
Feb 18, 2009
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The whole point of being here is to share ideas. 1-8 in conference play will have people thinking that a change needs to be made.
You're not wrong. But this thread is an ugly, ugly look. You’ve been on it most of the time, you know there are some black eye posts in here.
 

Ptak'sNewspaper

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I think you’re seeing zone because we don’t really play man to man very well with this group. not saying we play zone well either but that’s about the only explanation for why he’s using it so much. He’s got some athletes that could make a zone pretty tough but they’ve got to buy in. Same for man to man to be honest.

Very true. I'm just saying that the reason we don't play man very well is because we're still overplaying the passing lanes, and with this collection of players, that just won't work. I would like to see us fall back to playing a more traditional man defense built on always being in position to help. Our help defense is almost non-existent because we've been out of position all year playing the passing lanes. Again, this has not been the same man defense that was used the final half of Underwood's season, or Boynton's first season (we didn't have the horses to play the passing lanes that year either). Just my opinion.
 
Nov 2, 2004
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I guess we could just replace EVERY coach in the athletic department every three years until everyone on the internet is satisfied/we can no longer find anyone to coach/we win a Natty. Sounds like a good plan!
Win a Natty, no how about just improve a little each year instead of getting worse...that would be a ideal.
 
Feb 18, 2009
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Very true. I'm just saying that the reason we don't play man very well is because we're still overplaying the passing lanes, and with this collection of players, that just won't work. I would like to see us fall back to playing a more traditional man defense built on always being in position to help. Our help defense is almost non-existent because we've been out of position all year playing the passing lanes. Again, this has not been the same man defense that was used the final half of Underwood's season, or Boynton's first season (we didn't have the horses to play the passing lanes that year either). Just my opinion.
Totally agree. I don't like denying passes 25 feet from the bucket. I would rather cram it in in arc like Virginia and make everything as difficult as possible from there. Same thing Tech is doing under Beard and what was behind their run last year. If you launch one and make it, so be it but I want everything else from the 3 point line to be as difficult as possible. I'd rather a strong close out on a shooter than getting out of position up the line and giving up wide open looks or easy drives and dump offs.
 
Oct 25, 2009
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Being the one who started this thread, I will be the first to admit that I like seeing some of the changes Ive seen of late...more working toward the basket and higher % shots. More effective player substitutions, better use of timeouts, and a little tighter leash for players just being careless with the ball or taking bad shots. I dont know if these changes have been Mikes learning process or whats brought about these changes. If continued progress is made, Ill be the first to eat crow. But, what Ill say is that I am very pleased with these changes and happy to see our guys approach the game with more toughness, hustle, etc. There definitely seems to be a difference over the past few games, and Ill take losses that are hard fought by both players and coaches. I just dont like seeing games where we start to get down and then completely fall apart, abandon our game plans, and just stink up both ends of the floor.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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Underwood was given 1 million first year. He was offered $2.5 million after first year that was raise I've been told. Illinois gave him $3 million and he walked. Underwood claimed that Holder compared osu basketball program to kstate and Underwood claims he was frustrated by Holder lack of vision and comparison. I admit pissed but being compared to kstate if that's true. Why mentioned them, they never do anything in any sport.
While I agree with you, I cannot miss the chance to play Devils Advocate...KSU has been to 4 final fours, we have been to 6...All time KSU is 1,658 wins - 1,147 losses OSU is 1,642 wins - 1,163 losses...so nearly identical with KSU having a small edge in wins vs losses and us having an edge in final fours and national titles
 

RutherfordFan

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Feb 5, 2008
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While I agree with you, I cannot miss the chance to play Devils Advocate...KSU has been to 4 final fours, we have been to 6...All time KSU is 1,658 wins - 1,147 losses OSU is 1,642 wins - 1,163 losses...so nearly identical with KSU having a small edge in wins vs losses and us having an edge in final fours and national titles
I hear you but OSUs goal should be to become Duke or Kansas. Is that realistic? Maybe not but that should still be yhr goal. Why aspire to be lesser. We have more final fours than kstate. I would never lift up kstate for anything as a goal. Just being honest.
 
Aug 8, 2006
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Winning 4-5 more games I think is realistic, Ice appears to be more himself of late.

I love Coach Mike and think he will get it going. That said if next year with Cunningham is a similar situation as Jeff Capel with Blake Griffin then yikes. I remember thinking at the time “how in the heck do you have BG for 2 years and not make a Final Four?!?!”
As for Doug, I would hope he comes on as an assistant coach at some point. Would be a great recruiter and could cut his teeth being on a bench instead of behind a mic.
 
Aug 8, 2006
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Being the one who started this thread, I will be the first to admit that I like seeing some of the changes Ive seen of late...more working toward the basket and higher % shots. More effective player substitutions, better use of timeouts, and a little tighter leash for players just being careless with the ball or taking bad shots. I dont know if these changes have been Mikes learning process or whats brought about these changes. If continued progress is made, Ill be the first to eat crow. But, what Ill say is that I am very pleased with these changes and happy to see our guys approach the game with more toughness, hustle, etc. There definitely seems to be a difference over the past few games, and Ill take losses that are hard fought by both players and coaches. I just dont like seeing games where we start to get down and then completely fall apart, abandon our game plans, and just stink up both ends of the floor.
Why don’t you change the thread title then? I cringe at the thought of recruits seeing that crap.
 

Ptak'sNewspaper

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Winning 4-5 more games I think is realistic, Ice appears to be more himself of late.

I love Coach Mike and think he will get it going. That said if next year with Cunningham is a similar situation as Jeff Capel with Blake Griffin then yikes. I remember thinking at the time “how in the heck do you have BG for 2 years and not make a Final Four?!?!”
As for Doug, I would hope he comes on as an assistant coach at some point. Would be a great recruiter and could cut his teeth being on a bench instead of behind a mic.

I really don't think that Cunningham will stay more than 1 year. And, Capel made the Elite Eight with Griffin, so I would take that in a heartbeat for next year. Heck, I would take a Sweet Sixteen appearance in a heartbeat for next year. Maybe I'm stupid (hope I am) but thinking that a Final Four appearance is possible next season is a pipe dream.
 
Aug 7, 2006
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If this is true, can we all agree that this is a YUGE misstep by Holder?
That's where the "misunderstanding" was. He told Brad he hadn't earned $3 million a year and that a fair raise would get him to where coaches at K-State and Iowa State were... which was a reasonable line of thinking all things considered. Brad, allegedly, thought he was putting a ceiling on the program and that's not true at all... he just wanted him to earn the money. Also, I say allegedly because part of me thinks he had the Illinois offer in his back pocket the whole time and he and his agent used this narrative to spin things his way after the fact.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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I hear you but OSUs goal should be to become Duke or Kansas. Is that realistic? Maybe not but that should still be yhr goal. Why aspire to be lesser. We have more final fours than kstate. I would never lift up kstate for anything as a goal. Just being honest.
I could be wrong, but I never interpreted Holder's comment as to being the ceiling of the program, but instead, a "where we are at now" comment as his justification for not giving up the extra cash.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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If this is true, can we all agree that this is a YUGE misstep by Holder?
I will disagree. See my earlier comment. I did not interpret the comment to insinuate he aspired to be like KSU, etal, but that right now, that is where the program is at, and it was correct. We have been in that group for a while now and as we have been burned before, progress above and beyond the status quo warrants the big bucks, not maintaining middle-of-the-pack results.
 
Aug 8, 2006
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I really don't think that Cunningham will stay more than 1 year. And, Capel made the Elite Eight with Griffin, so I would take that in a heartbeat for next year. Heck, I would take a Sweet Sixteen appearance in a heartbeat for next year. Maybe I'm stupid (hope I am) but thinking that a Final Four appearance is possible next season is a pipe dream.
Agree he is one and done, and not saying we should expect a Final Four. I just hope HCMB puts him in the best position to thrive. Maybe Trae Young is a better example.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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but thinking that a Final Four appearance is possible next season is a pipe dream
I completely concur. All you have to do is look at OU and Trey Young. The only thing Young did was get them a tourney invite when they did not deserve one. I like to think our supporting cast is will be better than what OU had that year, but so many things have to fall into place and develop to reach the final 4. Impossible? No, but I put it at less than 5% realistically.
 
Apr 14, 2009
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For you Holder haters.
He is not leaving his post until he wants to leave.
END OF STORY!!

Now carry on with bitching and complaining!