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Nov 25, 2009
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#43
Here's a civil conversation.
Do you think that college football will ever seek to REALLY level the playing field between blue bloods like ou and non-Blue Bloods but good programs like Oklahoma State and many others who flounder on the edge but see no way to achieve that due to many factors like history, money, fanbase, status and recruiting because of those things?

Do you ever think that attempts at leveling the playing field will restrict numbers of 5 star recruits to blue bloods or create a mandatory EQUAL distribution of highly rated five star recruits like the nfl attempts, equal distribution of conference TV and bowl money as we become more and more like an nfl junior.. IF that was to happen, how do you see that playing out?

My guess is that you, being a blue blood team fan, don't want the kind of change that would bring more equality and equity to the college game, even thought it would actually bring more excitement across the board for more teams.

Do you take pride in a system you didn't have anything to do with creating and one that is unfairly biased against teams wanting to break into that old school system? OR do you,, like so many others, just mindlessly root for a team because they win and you are a @TypicalGooner ;-)...never attending ou?
We were out coached more than were out talent.

Talent wise except at QB and the limping OLs competed well except they were out schemed with misdirection pulling guards and sideline throws to the RB while the WR was blocking nicely. They scouted and schemed us well. Their coaches and experts studied, plans and prepared for us better than we did vice versa.
We were unhealthy and thin at the most critical positions....the OLs.
Our OC and the head-coach are inbreeds. We need to get an external OC to marry and blend into Gundy 101.
 
Nov 25, 2009
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Kedah Malaysia
#44
Both. I have been a Gundy defender until last night. Now, after watching us run out the clock until halftime and punting on 4th down when we are down in the 4th, it’s time for a change.

my fear is we let Gundy go, or Gundy decides to retire, and holder gets to pick some no talent a** clown who he can get cheap and they won junior college division 2a regionals, but they ate pinto beans and cornbread at Holders house and “aw shucks, he just had a great way about him”.

Holder needs to move on too. He did great building the athletic village, now it’s time to sail off to karsten creek and enjoy leisure...
Gundy do not have to go.

Let him manage the team, but get a real OC that have some young swagger and not someone from within oSu that he can dictate.
 
Jan 17, 2011
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#45
Gundy do not have to go.

Let him manage the team, but get a real OC that have some young swagger and not someone from within oSu that he can dictate.
Disagree. This is not about an under qualified OC. This literally happens every time we have played OU where monken was not our OC. Gundy goes into his shell and just goes über-conservative. I don’t care who the OC is, if Gundy is the ultimate play caller, then we are running gundys play.

And listen, he can manage, but there’s a big difference between active management and being aloof and uninvolved, which is what the team spoke out about at the beginning of the year.
 

TypicalGooner

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Oct 21, 2011
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#46
Here's a civil conversation.
Do you think that college football will ever seek to REALLY level the playing field between blue bloods like ou and non-Blue Bloods but good programs like Oklahoma State and many others who flounder on the edge but see no way to achieve that due to many factors like history, money, fanbase, status and recruiting because of those things?

Do you ever think that attempts at leveling the playing field will restrict numbers of 5 star recruits to blue bloods or create a mandatory EQUAL distribution of highly rated five star recruits like the nfl attempts, equal distribution of conference TV and bowl money as we become more and more like an nfl junior.. IF that was to happen, how do you see that playing out?

My guess is that you, being a blue blood team fan, don't want the kind of change that would bring more equality and equity to the college game, even thought it would actually bring more excitement across the board for more teams.

Do you take pride in a system you didn't have anything to do with creating and one that is unfairly biased against teams wanting to break into that old school system? OR do you,, like so many others, just mindlessly root for a team because they win and you are a @TypicalGooner ;-)...never attending ou?
Clemson made a great hire. Built itself up in a weak conference (ala the Big 12). And look at them now. It can happen. They made themselves into a blue blood in the last decade from essentially nothing. All with a guy with zero connections to Clemson. Dabo went to Bama for crying out loud. I think more parity exists now in college football than it ever has to be honest.

OSU has held onto the same toad hoping it’ll turn into a prince for the better part of two decades. That’s y’all’s fault.

I don’t mindlessly root for anyone. I grew up watching football. My grandpa went to OU and I used to watch games with him as a kid. I grew up with it during the freaking 90’s. I love everything about college football. I’ve been to Notre Dame, West Point and The Shoe. OU wasn’t playing at any of those stadiums at the time. It’s purely the love of the atmosphere and the game. I received a scholarship from a different college that actually reflects the career path I wanted to take. I didn’t even apply to OU. As a matter of fact, I almost went to OSU but decided not to run for FFA state office. It wouldn’t have changed who I root for on Saturday anyway.

It’s truly sad you have the need to degrade someone’s college affiliation when it comes to football anyway. And you say I mindlessly root for a school. You can’t take blinders off for two seconds to have a civil conversation without getting personal. About a game.


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Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#47
Clemson made a great hire. Built itself up in a weak conference (ala the Big 12). And look at them now. It can happen. They made themselves into a blue blood in the last decade from essentially nothing. All with a guy with zero connections to Clemson. Dabo went to Bama for crying out loud. I think more parity exists now in college football than it ever has to be honest.

OSU has held onto the same toad hoping it’ll turn into a prince for the better part of two decades. That’s y’all’s fault.

I don’t mindlessly root for anyone. I grew up watching football. My grandpa went to OU and I used to watch games with him as a kid. I grew up with it during the freaking 90’s. I love everything about college football. I’ve been to Notre Dame, West Point and The Shoe. OU wasn’t playing at any of those stadiums at the time. It’s purely the love of the atmosphere and the game. I received a scholarship from a different college that actually reflects the career path I wanted to take. I didn’t even apply to OU. As a matter of fact, I almost went to OSU but decided not to run for FFA state office. It wouldn’t have changed who I root for on Saturday anyway.

It’s truly sad you have the need to degrade someone’s college affiliation when it comes to football anyway. And you say I mindlessly root for a school. You can’t take blinders off for two seconds to have a civil conversation without getting personal. About a game.


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The wink means I was kidding. It's a common joke among OSU fans for ou fans because we have very very few non-Alumni as fans. This is due to the fact that we don't have a long history of winning in football and that the state of Oklahoma decided to make OU the "pro" "state" team way back during the Iba AD days when he denied their money right after the war (car dealerships and the state). They came to him offering, but he wanted to maintain integrity and Amateurism which sent them to Norman with the same accepted plan. This was done in order to create "state" pride in a football powerhouse, so it wasn't sinister, but I believe it felt that way to Iba who was AD at the time and obviously cared more about being great at Basketball than football and cared about amateurism.

Personally, I am glad you can be civil...I actually didn't realize it before. I disagree about Gundy. As coach he has brought us more success than any other coach in our history. Like Snyder at KSU did them. You brought up Clemson, who we have discussed many times on this board in the past. Although they shared our former AD just after us, Terry Don Phillips, who can be credited with our football expansion in the 1990's and early 2000's just prior to Boone coming aboard, He also get's some credit for their most recent rise to power. However, they actually have some built in advantages we don't have...Much more populace countryside and bigger cities/population centers nearby (halfway between Atlanta (6million metro area) and Charlotte (2 million metro area) ), SEC recruiting base while being in the "easier" ACC...Not sharing a conference with their in state "rival" South Carolina enabling them to build up more tradition separately from the "larger" Gamecocks. I was hopeful that during the hope Pac 10 / SEC flirting thing that this might have happen with OSU and OU because it would have been nice to be able to build our own tradition without having to play ou every year in football. If that had put us in the Pac 10 west and OU in the SEC it would, IMHO, at the time been a great thing...in light of covid this year, not so much. However we've been unable to climb to the top due to this problem, coaches, administrators and alumni alike all see it as fairly insurmountable in terms of being able to achieve that type of success. In other words, we have an ou problem...and with us in the same conference, playing field leveling in terms of shared recruiting like the nfl draft is, IMHO the only way we will be able to consistently compete.

Honestly if the other school in your state get's all 32 of the 1st round draft choices every year, what chance do you really have? Point being, I don't care if we exhume Knute Rockne, It's a losing battle that cannot be consistently won without recruiting sharing and reform.
 

ScooberJake

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Jul 13, 2004
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#48
I would never want any rules about purported "balancing" of recruits. Every kid should have the ability to go to whatever school they want.
1) Eliminate the playoff committee (too much bias/political connections)
2) Expand the playoffs to 8 or 16 teams. Overtime you'd see a little more expoaure and upsets changing the teams at the top.
3) Institute a budget/salary cap. That would narrow the advantage between the blue bloods and the smaller budget programs.
It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's...

I agree that some kind of forced distribution of recruits is a bad idea. But there are two main forces that I see driving the elimination of parity in college football. One is national TV. The networks prioritize a few primetime games each week and those teams, which tend to be the same week after week and year after year, get nearly all of the exposure.

But the other main force is national recruiting. This is amplified by national TV exposure, but also a factor of the internet age. Recruiting was MUCH more regional 20-30 years ago, but now the blue-blood schools can realistically evaluate highlights of every single kid in the country worth looking at. The system has gotten better at finding and identifying the truly exceptional kids, and now Alabama can (and does) offer every single one of them. And with essentially all of the games televised now, a kid can go to school across the country and his family can still watch him play. This is all very different from where things used to be.

Of course the NCAA can't change the TV or internet piece, but they can affect recruiting. It is time to reduce scholarship limits. This way a kid can still "go to whatever school they want", at least in the same way they can today. But you will spread the talent out across the country, and the trickle down effect will impact even schools like UAB and ULL. Yes, it means you give fewer kids that chance at a free education. But it just means on a campus of 20,000 students your percentage of kids on football scholarship goes from 0.42% to 0.25%. You could also pair this with a donation of football revenue into the general scholarship fund of each school if you are really concerned about it.

If nothing is done, I see parity reducing even further from where it already is over the next 20 years. Everybody else is just reduced to a punching bag for Bama, Clemson, ND, OU, tOSU, and Georgia.
 
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TypicalGooner

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Oct 21, 2011
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#50
There’s stud coaches out there. You have to be in a position to pick them up.

Gundy has shown his ceiling. It’s well past time to move on. But he’ll probably draw a beatable name brand bowl opponent (Miami, anyone?). Beat them by a possession. You’ll get the warm and fuzzies again and look forward to the promise of next year. Rinse and repeat.

I just want a competitive team in conference. That’s it. Beef up the conference identity.


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Tulley

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Feb 27, 2018
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#51
Does anyone watch the Our Time documentary series on ESPN+? It's no wonder these guys came out absolutely flat against KSU and OU. Gundy just repeats the same thing in every single speech. "Alright men I want to see effort, I want to see enthusiasm, and you need to bring your own party". It's just so bland at this point and you can see it on the player's faces.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#52
There’s stud coaches out there. You have to be in a position to pick them up.

Gundy has shown his ceiling. It’s well past time to move on. But he’ll probably draw a beatable name brand bowl opponent (Miami, anyone?). Beat them by a possession. You’ll get the warm and fuzzies again and look forward to the promise of next year. Rinse and repeat.

I just want a competitive team in conference. That’s it. Beef up the conference identity.


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It's NOT coaching...it's talent availability. Only so much talent and it all goes to the powerhouses. It's a losing battle to concentrate on coaching when talent is the issue. We have to have some kind of recruiting leveling in terms of fairness or at least a 8 or 12 added to the playoff...but even with that most teams will continue to flounder at the hands of the power Blue Blood programs who hog all the recruits. It's an unfairly biased system geared to keep the Blue Bloods Blue and strong to create revenue for tv and espn and a huge marketing campaign for college football...Gundy's problem is that he knows this and it's removed his desire in this one game...otherwise he feels he can compete, and does, with the teams on our level. Texas being an outlier due to their poor management of their extreme talent.. You think if Gundy had the depth of Texas talent things wouldn't be very different in the Bedlam series?

If you REALLY want competition you have to be willing to make some recruiting concessions. It's not balanced and it never will be until changes in that system are made.
 
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Jun 16, 2020
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Atlanta
#53
Does anyone watch the Our Time documentary series on ESPN+? It's no wonder these guys came out absolutely flat against KSU and OU. Gundy just repeats the same thing in every single speech. "Alright men I want to see effort, I want to see enthusiasm, and you need to bring your own party". It's just so bland at this point and you can see it on the player's faces.
I was watching and thinking the same thing. Where is the fire? Our coaches were hog hunting and farming on the bye week while oklahoma coaches were figuring out stunts to confuse our oline. No way you can justify putting up 13 points on a bye week.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#54
Does anyone watch the Our Time documentary series on ESPN+? It's no wonder these guys came out absolutely flat against KSU and OU. Gundy just repeats the same thing in every single speech. "Alright men I want to see effort, I want to see enthusiasm, and you need to bring your own party". It's just so bland at this point and you can see it on the player's faces.
How long have you been a fan of Oklahoma State? You know he doesn't believe in the Raw Raw stuff...He's about golfer and baseball mentality. That being calm in the face of adversity. I believe in the Raw Raw stuff as well, but that's not Gundy...never has been and he's been pretty damn successful with the golf/baseball mentality. But you have to have the players and depth to compete year in and year out with teams that have four stars on three deep...and we just don't. Without recruiting reform this will never change.

Once again, we could raise Knute Rockne from the dead and it would make no difference without recruiting reform.
 
Sep 12, 2013
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#55
It's only going to get worse. Pay to play (aka Name-Image-Likeness) is getting ready to kick in. Big money schools with lots of fans and supporters (aka "Blue Bloods") will be stepping up to pay the players. Just imagine a commercial for Joe Bob's Furniture Mart with a big ol center sitting in a recliner and getting $25K just for being in the commercial. All that money that was under the table, will now all be above the table. Between this and the GORs expiring soon, I'm expecting quite a shakeup in the college football landscape.

The teams that can compete (i.e. teams with deep pockets) will form a super conference of say 24 teams (12 & 12, east/west or north/south?). Play 11 conference games and take the top 4 from each division for a playoff. Teams in the super conference will be getting huge payouts. Maybe they get 1 out of conference tune up game, say an OU vs OSU. Then we get paid the big bucks for a good old fashion butt whoopin.

Texass and OU join the super conference and we (OSU) are back to the "Big 8". Hopefully we can kick Rapelor to the curb at that time and pickup a few schools that have also been tossed aside (i.e. Misery, Miss St). Our payout gets drastically cut.

This would net you Alabama playing a schedule of: Auburn, LSU, Florida, OU, Texass, Clemson, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida State, Arkansas, Texas A&M. Then cross division playoffs might be Oregon, USC, and Ohio State.

Sources for school revenue: College Football’s Most Valuable Teams: Reigning Champion Clemson Tigers Claw Into Top 25 (forbes.com), The highest-grossing football programs in college football are... (footballscoop.com)
 
Dec 20, 2015
786
406
613
SW OKLA
#56
How long have you been a fan of Oklahoma State? You know he doesn't believe in the Raw Raw stuff...He's about golfer and baseball mentality. That being calm in the face of adversity. I believe in the Raw Raw stuff as well, but that's not Gundy...never has been and he's been pretty damn successful with the golf/baseball mentality. But you have to have the players and depth to compete year in and year out with teams that have four stars on three deep...and we just don't. Without recruiting reform this will never change.

Once again, we could raise Knute Rockne from the dead and it would make no difference without recruiting reform.
Raw Raw? :lol:
 
Nov 6, 2010
2,285
794
1,743
#57
It's only going to get worse. Pay to play (aka Name-Image-Likeness) is getting ready to kick in. Big money schools with lots of fans and supporters (aka "Blue Bloods") will be stepping up to pay the players. Just imagine a commercial for Joe Bob's Furniture Mart with a big ol center sitting in a recliner and getting $25K just for being in the commercial. All that money that was under the table, will now all be above the table. Between this and the GORs expiring soon, I'm expecting quite a shakeup in the college football landscape.

The teams that can compete (i.e. teams with deep pockets) will form a super conference of say 24 teams (12 & 12, east/west or north/south?). Play 11 conference games and take the top 4 from each division for a playoff. Teams in the super conference will be getting huge payouts. Maybe they get 1 out of conference tune up game, say an OU vs OSU. Then we get paid the big bucks for a good old fashion butt whoopin.

Texass and OU join the super conference and we (OSU) are back to the "Big 8". Hopefully we can kick Rapelor to the curb at that time and pickup a few schools that have also been tossed aside (i.e. Misery, Miss St). Our payout gets drastically cut.

This would net you Alabama playing a schedule of: Auburn, LSU, Florida, OU, Texass, Clemson, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida State, Arkansas, Texas A&M. Then cross division playoffs might be Oregon, USC, and Ohio State.

Sources for school revenue: College Football’s Most Valuable Teams: Reigning Champion Clemson Tigers Claw Into Top 25 (forbes.com), The highest-grossing football programs in college football are... (footballscoop.com)
I think you're probably right, and maybe that's for the best.
 
Dec 20, 2015
786
406
613
SW OKLA
#59
It's NOT coaching...it's talent availability. Only so much talent and it all goes to the powerhouses. It's a losing battle to concentrate on coaching when talent is the issue. We have to have some kind of recruiting leveling in terms of fairness or at least a 8 or 12 added to the playoff...but even with that most teams will continue to flounder at the hands of the power Blue Blood programs who hog all the recruits. It's an unfairly biased system geared to keep the Blue Bloods Blue and strong to create revenue for tv and espn and a huge marketing campaign for college football...Gundy's problem is that he knows this and it's removed his desire in this one game...otherwise he feels he can compete, and does, with the teams on our level. Texas being an outlier due to their poor management of their extreme talent.. You think if Gundy had the depth of Texas talent things wouldn't be very different in the Bedlam series?

If you REALLY want competition you have to be willing to make some recruiting concessions. It's not balanced and it never will be until changes in that system are made.
So Bill Snyder loaded up with 4 and 5 star players?
 
Aug 16, 2012
2,626
1,262
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57
#60
It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's...

I agree that some kind of forced distribution of recruits is a bad idea. But there are two main forces that I see driving the elimination of parity in college football. One is national TV. The networks prioritize a few primetime games each week and those teams, which tend to be the same week after week and year after year, get nearly all of the exposure.

But the other main force is national recruiting. This is amplified by national TV exposure, but also a factor of the internet age. Recruiting was MUCH more regional 20-30 years ago, but now the blue-blood schools can realistically evaluate highlights of every single kid in the country worth looking at. The system has gotten better at finding and identifying the truly exceptional kids, and now Alabama can (and does) offer every single one of them. And with essentially all of the games televised now, a kid can go to school across the country and his family can still watch him play. This is all very different from where things used to be.

Of course the NCAA can't change the TV or internet piece, but they can affect recruiting. It is time to reduce scholarship limits. This way a kid can still "go to whatever school they want", at least in the same way they can today. But you will spread the talent out across the country, and the trickle down effect will impact even schools like UAB and ULL. Yes, it means you give fewer kids that chance at a free education. But it just means on a campus of 20,000 students your percentage of kids on football scholarship goes from 0.42% to 0.25%. You could also pair this with a donation of football revenue into the general scholarship fund of each school if you are really concerned about it.

If nothing is done, I see parity reducing even further from where it already is over the next 20 years. Everybody else is just reduced to a punching bag for Bama, Clemson, ND, OU, tOSU, and Georgia.
Again, I do not think that scholarship limits beyond what is already in place is necessary. However, as you pointed out, I do think there needs to be a limit on offers and that would be contingent on the number of kids currently on scholarship. It is not equitable for blue bloods to offer all the best kids in a blanket manner. The only problem with that is the OSU's of the world would never offer a 5-star then because it would be unlikely they attend and it would be a hit against the "cap". The practice of "gray shirts" needs to be eliminated and with the exception of special situations, I do not think a school should be able to yank the scholarship of a second-string kid, especially an upper classmen, so they can sign a top incoming recruit. These are the accepted, underhanded practices of many larger schools that IMO not only imbalance the field, but keeps good kids from seeing the field.

No easy answer.
 
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