THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR: DIRTY FARM WATER IS MAKING US SICK

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Feb 6, 2007
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Ardmore, Ok.
#82
Should there be regulations in Oklahoma dictating fracking? Because there *WERE* studies done that actually show those little earthquakes people experience being directly connected with hydraulic fracturing. But Scott Pruitt, after having received money from oil companies, buried the research and protected the companies.
There is NO correlation between fracking and earthquakes. There IS a correlation between earthquakes and the injection of salt water and "produced water" from energy exploration. The underground injection of water lubricates the fault lines.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#83
I know that a lot of organizations will ask for studies to be done. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that sentiment. But if, in the end, a real scientist carrying a PhD does real research, who cares who asked for the study to be done? If the data is there, it's there.
Why do you think I'm arguing against legitimate science? And it shouldn't be based on a single study, in most cases you need a consensus of multiple studies giving you the same results.

Not sure where you stand on GMOs, but the science is pretty clear. Are you for or against GMO foods?

I remember hearing a speaker talk about believing in science and that we were entitled to our opinions but not our own facts. Thought he did a good job with the speech so I went to his website and did some reading on him. There he made a statement that he wouldn't eat beef from implanted animals. Well, the science on this is pretty clear, well documented, and there is a consensus among researchers. I and a few others sent him an email to clarify his position, he never responded to any of us.

How do you feel about beef from implanted animals?
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#84
They probably were *IN AND OF THEMSELVES*. Meaning, they just happened to converge in this *one* specific instance. That's not the fault of government. It's also not the business owner's fault. It's simply an unlucky occurrence.
But it is the governments fault. One of them was likely wrong or they both would have adopted the same regulations. As I recall it had to do with shipping.
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
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Nov 8, 2004
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Wishing I was in Stillwater
#85
And spraying, drip, or flood does make a difference.

Where growers have to utilise water sources of moderate quality, they can reduce the risk of contamination of the edible portion of the crop (i.e., the leaves) by treating irrigation water before use through physical or chemical disinfection systems, or avoid contact between the leaves and irrigation water through the use of drip or furrow irrigation, or the use of hydroponic growing systems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515668/
That's great, if they have a source of water of "moderate quality". If they have a source of water of poor quality, such as in Yuma, then it apparently doesn't make any difference. Again, sophistry.
 
Sep 23, 2018
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Memphis
#86
Why do you think I'm arguing against legitimate science? And it shouldn't be based on a single study, in most cases you need a consensus of multiple studies giving you the same results.

Not sure where you stand on GMOs, but the science is pretty clear. Are you for or against GMO foods?

I remember hearing a speaker talk about believing in science and that we were entitled to our opinions but not our own facts. Thought he did a good job with the speech so I went to his website and did some reading on him. There he made a statement that he wouldn't eat beef from implanted animals. Well, the science on this is pretty clear, well documented, and there is a consensus among researchers. I and a few others sent him an email to clarify his position, he never responded to any of us.

How do you feel about beef from implanted animals?
Ah, GMOs, lol. Glad you asked about that...

Indifferent. Here's the thing: I eat organic veggies. Period. Now, I do not do that because I think GMO-laden veggies are *bad*. The research suggests there isn't much of a difference.

For me personally, it comes down to eating food from local farms that don't use pesticides/growth-assisting agents, etc. etc....versus large companies like Monsanto that do that kind of thing. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't really think of GMOs when buying veggies. I think about the source. I'd rather support local family farms and not large corporations like ConAgra, Monsanto, etc.

Make sense?
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Ardmore, Ok.
#87
Yep. When I saw your article I thought, "What if you just washed the food?" Then I looked for data. Once it's contaminated it looks like you have to bleach it (sodium hypochlorite) or blast it with high pressure (higher than you can generate in your sink) to get it clean. In other words, once it has poop water on it you're pretty much screwed.

This would seem to be a necessary regulation.
Most of the produce does go through a bacterial wash, of some kind, the problem however is that some food items, such as cantaloupe, are much tougher issues because of the texture of the skin or rind. Tomatoes, peppers, and other smooth-skinned produce is much easier to wash effectively. Leafy vegetables, with all the folds and crevices are challenges as well.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Ardmore, Ok.
#88
Perhaps porta potties in the fields and bathroom breaks would help also. Let's be honest here, when you gotta go.....kick dirt over it and keep working. Gross, but positive it happens regularly.
I believe that OSHA and/or FDA standards dictate that restroom facilities AND handwashing facilities are required. However, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
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Mar 31, 2004
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#89
Unless I missed it, I did not see one bit of evidence substantiating that the E.Coli came from irrigation water. I am hoping that this is not just a suppositino. I am not saying that it didn't and I am not saying that we shouldn't have testing standards for irrigation water, but I can tell you that most E.coli outbreaks originate from other sources, that water testing will not solve.
It is a documented fact that human waste, from migrant farm-laborers, has been an issue, even though portable facilities are usually available. However, I think I have seen documentation that wildlife are even a bigger concern, and you simply cannot eliminate all the potential sources. Before someone wants to take issue with me, let me say that the challenges should not preclude us from doing everything possible to protect our food source to ensure its wholesomeness, but let us also be careful and diligent in assigning blame for the rare failures of our system. We have the safest, cheapest, and most abundant food system in the entire world. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Much like the opioid issue; it is easy to blame big pharma and seek retribution where dollars are to be found, but the consumer is not absolved of their responsibility. We all have a role to play in minimizing these events. We cannot solve them by pointing fingers and assigning blame to one segment of the industry.
BTW: This is my daughter's graduate research subject. She completes her Masters this coming spring, and will pursue her PhD.
Rx already posted an article absolving the consumer fro responsibility. You can't fix this on the consumer side.

Big pharma and opiates are a horrible example as the evidence is quite clear that they were by far the major factor in that problem. I have given lectures on that subject and can educate you on that if you would like.

Rx and I have been posting links to articles backing our claims. If migrant workers and wildlife are your claim to be the major cause of this issue, then show it because that runs contrary to everything I have ever heard.

If you are saying that we should have testing standards for irrigation water, then we agree. Our only disagreement is that I believe that is the common source of this problem and you are blaming wildlife and migrants as the more common source. Wildlife would be a difficult issue to correct. The claim that "portable facilities are usually available" as if migrant workers simply choose to poop on the ground instead of in an easy to reach bathroom is at best silly and at worst veiled racism. Nobody would do that. Yes, I do know migrant workers. No, they have never just taken a shit in my yard instead of my toilet.
I suspect far more likely than the idea that they are savages with no concept where to relieve themselves:
1. There aren't actually facilities where they are
2. There are facilities but at a distance that they would be accused of not producing enough or take a pay cut if they went and utilized them.
3. There was no explanation in a language that they understand how to access facilities.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#90
Ah, GMOs, lol. Glad you asked about that...

Indifferent. Here's the thing: I eat organic veggies. Period. Now, I do not do that because I think GMO-laden veggies are *bad*. The research suggests there isn't much of a difference.

For me personally, it comes down to eating food from local farms that don't use pesticides/growth-assisting agents, etc. etc....versus large companies like Monsanto that do that kind of thing. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't really think of GMOs when buying veggies. I think about the source. I'd rather support local family farms and not large corporations like ConAgra, Monsanto, etc.

Make sense?
No, not really.

How much land does Monsanto own that produces a retail counter food product?

Are you saying that "local family farmers" don't buy their seed from Monsanto? Because many of them do.

US Census

Fewer than 32,500 non family held corporations own farmland, and they own less than 5 percent of all U.S. farmland.

Are you also aware that many of these "farmers markets" are selling food products that are less regulated than those sources you seem to shy away from? Do you think incidences of foodborne illnesses are higher or lower with those sources?
 
Feb 6, 2007
4,419
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1,743
Ardmore, Ok.
#91
Ah, GMOs, lol. Glad you asked about that...

Indifferent. Here's the thing: I eat organic veggies. Period. Now, I do not do that because I think GMO-laden veggies are *bad*. The research suggests there isn't much of a difference.

For me personally, it comes down to eating food from local farms that don't use pesticides/growth-assisting agents, etc. etc....versus large companies like Monsanto that do that kind of thing. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't really think of GMOs when buying veggies. I think about the source. I'd rather support local family farms and not large corporations like ConAgra, Monsanto, etc.

Make sense?
Your choice is your choice, and I respect that. However, just know that many "Organic" farms DO use pesticides; it's just that their pesticides have to be "organic" in nature. You should also know that many of the "organic" pesticides are the most toxic pesticides known to man. That being said, some organic farmers choose to use no pesticides, or pesticides that are very low toxicity, but the challenge is knowing, and the stamp of "organic" or "locally grown" does not ensure you that.
I think many people who choose organic also think that it is also more eco-friendly than traditional farming. The truth is, however, that it creates a larger carbon footprint because it requires more acres due to the lower production yields.
 
Feb 6, 2007
4,419
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Ardmore, Ok.
#92
@steross In response to your accusations of racism by me, in my earlier post, no where in my post did I mention any ethnic group. Migrant farm labor may include ANY race of people. Read Grapes of Wrath.
I had a friend tell me one time that, typically, the first person to throw out the "Racist" accusation is actually the Racist. I take strong exception to your accusation!

Secondly, regarding the issue of placing all the blame on Big Pharma (my parallel example) for the opioid problem, say what you will be just because someone manufactures large amounts of powerful and addictive substances . . . it doesn't absolve me of my decision to use them excessively, or doctors who prescribe them excessively. Sorry, it's a two-way street.

And lastly, you are apparently very naive about the realities of rural life and the habits of people who spend a lot of time outdoors, either for recreation and/or their labor. It may come as quite a shock to you, but the modern conveniences of indoor plumbing and handwashing facilities is a relatively new phenomena in the history of mankind, and many locations in our civilized world still do not have these conveniences. It may offend your sensibilities to know that many of us today still shit in the woods, when deer hunting, plowing, working cattle, building fence, or any other of the endeavors that are foreign to your imagination. Still yet, we proudly consider ourselves blessed and fortunate that we do not live in your sterile world, where the abundance of modern conveniences will not allow you to imagine that people, still today, shit outdoors periodically. Apparently, you cannot consider that even if those migrant workers (whatever race they may be; and the source could even be the farm owner . . . whatever race they be be also) had access to toilets, port-a-potties, or even a bucket to shit in that maybe, just maybe, they did not wash their hands adequately to prevent contamination of the crops they are working in.


https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/26/e-coli-romaine-lettuce-contamination/

The sanitation regulations require agricultural growers to provide drinking water, toilets and hand-washing facilities to field laborers.

Rules require facilities to be located within a 5-minute walk from where work is taking place and that employers instruct employees on hand-washing, among other things.

"The laws are good, but the enforcement is pretty sparse," said United Farm Workers spokesman Marc Grossman. "Cal-OSHA does the enforcement, but they've got a pretty spare staff."

https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/New-focus-on-field-sanitation-E-coli-2551035.php


https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/f...exico-sickens-hundreds-in-us-with-cyclospora/

Foods can also be contaminated with
E. coli
O157:H7 by cross-contamination during food
preparation and by inf
ected workers who don’t
practice good hygiene. Severa
l restaurant outbreaks in
Oregon and Washington in 19
93 were associated with
a variety of items from the salad bar but not with
steak. All the restaurants obtained their beef from the
same source, and it was the
practice to trim, macerate,
and marinate the beef in the same kitchens used for
preparation of fruits and vegetables for the salad bar.
It appeared that the beef itself was cooked well
enough to destroy
E. coli
O157:H7 but that some raw
beef was the source of contamination for the fresh
produce (
185
). https://fri.wisc.edu/files/Briefs_File/FRIBrief_EcoliO157H7humanillness.pdf


An example of the reverse (human-to-animal) disease transmission can be found in the following link. It is called "mealy beef", and it is caused by human excrement in the feedstuffs of beef cattle. (Hence, people shitting in the feed troughs.) I am quite sure this offends you, but get a grip on reality. SHIT HAPPENS (pun intended)
https://books.google.com/books?id=2qT6cc-EPtIC&pg=PA474&lpg=PA474&dq=mealy+beef+from+human+excrement&source=bl&ots=kdQRqfFrLt&sig=bn-3rX5R1bNcgzrXd_A3uFSEUaQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuh8r90InfAhUIXKwKHQJBBDkQ6AEwEnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=mealy beef from human excrement&f=false
 
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Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#93
Your choice is your choice, and I respect that. However, just know that many "Organic" farms DO use pesticides; it's just that their pesticides have to be "organic" in nature. You should also know that many of the "organic" pesticides are the most toxic pesticides known to man. That being said, some organic farmers choose to use no pesticides, or pesticides that are very low toxicity, but the challenge is knowing, and the stamp of "organic" or "locally grown" does not ensure you that.
I think many people who choose organic also think that it is also more eco-friendly than traditional farming. The truth is, however, that it creates a larger carbon footprint because it requires more acres due to the lower production yields.
Manure is also the fertilzier of choice for organic crops.
 
Jul 20, 2018
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#94
You obviously know nothing about generic pharmaceuticals. Most of our generic oral contraceptives come from Central and South America, and a good portion of our generic pharma supply comes from India. We even have generics that come from the Caribbean.
View attachment 66701
Just because a drug comes from a 3rd world country, that doesn't mean that the drug company is owned by a company of 3rd world origin.

I'm also smart enough to know it's much easier to regulate and enforce drug manufacturing facilities than thousands upon thousands of farms in central and south America.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
52,164
18,062
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#95
Ah, GMOs, lol. Glad you asked about that...

Indifferent. Here's the thing: I eat organic veggies. Period. Now, I do not do that because I think GMO-laden veggies are *bad*. The research suggests there isn't much of a difference.

For me personally, it comes down to eating food from local farms that don't use pesticides/growth-assisting agents, etc. etc....versus large companies like Monsanto that do that kind of thing. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't really think of GMOs when buying veggies. I think about the source. I'd rather support local family farms and not large corporations like ConAgra, Monsanto, etc.

Make sense?
My family has been farmers in Oklahoma since 1910 when my grandfather moved to Oklahoma. They were farmers for generations beyond that.

We are a small family farm but we market our products through more conventional markets and not "farmers markets". So why do you selectively choose which family farms you support?

To be clear I don't care if you go to the farmers market or elsewhere. It doesn't matter to me, but the fact is most all agriculture in this country is produced by family farms. Our system of getting those products to a large market (population) is based on efficiency and lowest cost. It's how they make money and it's a way to assist in keeping foor affordable. So the idea that you're buying from farmers markets to support local family farms is ignoring all the other local family farms who choose to market in a different way.

I set in on a meeting several years ago in Kansas City. It was a meeting of "local farms" and "organic farms". One of their issues was how to build a system to market those products. I was thinking "farmers co-ops" we already have those. In reality what some were looking for were large govenrment grants, it's how they make money!

There is a reason in Texas they refer to many of their state highways as "farm to market" roads.

Grass fed beef, are you aware that grass fed beef can be produced in concentrated feedlots? All they have to do is feed a forage based ration.
 
Sep 23, 2018
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Memphis
#96
No, not really.

How much land does Monsanto own that produces a retail counter food product?

Are you saying that "local family farmers" don't buy their seed from Monsanto? Because many of them do.

US Census

Fewer than 32,500 non family held corporations own farmland, and they own less than 5 percent of all U.S. farmland.

Are you also aware that many of these "farmers markets" are selling food products that are less regulated than those sources you seem to shy away from? Do you think incidences of foodborne illnesses are higher or lower with those sources?
I buy all my veggies from Whole Foods, rarely from farmer's markets. You have to understand that Whole Foods does sources some of their veggies/fruits from local farms, some from Central America, so on and so forth. But they are from smaller farms, generally speaking.

Now, with that being said, I would suggest you watch "Food, Inc.". It touches on why local family farmers buy from Monsanto (hint: they don't do it because they *want* to).

http://www.takepart.com/foodinc/index.html

I would also suggest watching "Forks over Knives".

https://www.forksoverknives.com/

Now, to be fair, "Forks over Knives" talks about switching to a more veggie-laden diet. If that's not your thing, I get it, Oklahomans generally don't care. Though, I feel like it connects well with "Food, Inc.", which talks more about the actual food industry.

There's a really good segment, right up your alley, in "Food, Inc." that focuses on a small family farm where the guy produces meat and eggs, milk, other stuff. Good insight.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#97
That's great, if they have a source of water of "moderate quality". If they have a source of water of poor quality, such as in Yuma, then it apparently doesn't make any difference. Again, sophistry.
So why do you think Yuma source of irrigation water is of poor quality? Do you have some information that says that?

According to Yuma agro visiters guide of the 230,000 acres of land utilized for agriculture in Yuma County, 100 per cent are irrigated with Colorado River water.

http://www.visityuma.com/agritourism.html
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
52,164
18,062
1,743
#98
I buy all my veggies from Whole Foods, rarely from farmer's markets. You have to understand that Whole Foods does sources some of their veggies/fruits from local farms, some from Central America, so on and so forth. But they are from smaller farms, generally speaking.

Now, with that being said, I would suggest you watch "Food, Inc.". It touches on why local family farmers buy from Monsanto (hint: they don't do it because they *want* to).

http://www.takepart.com/foodinc/index.html

I would also suggest watching "Forks over Knives".

https://www.forksoverknives.com/

Now, to be fair, "Forks over Knives" talks about switching to a more veggie-laden diet. If that's not your thing, I get it, Oklahomans generally don't care. Though, I feel like it connects well with "Food, Inc.", which talks more about the actual food industry.

There's a really good segment, right up your alley, in "Food, Inc." that focuses on a small family farm where the guy produces meat and eggs, milk, other stuff. Good insight.
Food Inc? Seriously?

I suppose you also buy into Vanni Hari?

Let me recommend a few resources which are actually supported by scientists.

https://www.foodevolutionmovie.com/

Or Kevin Folta

https://gmoanswers.com/experts/kevin-folta

Or the College of Agriculture at Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK

http://casnr.okstate.edu/

And here is a comment from the National Chicken Council on Food Inc.

The truth is:

  • The modern American food industry is composed of many disparate industries, which together produce the world’s most abundant, diverse, safe, and economical supply of food for consumers in the United States and around the world.
  • The system is regulated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the Food and Drug Administration, the Environmental Protection Agency, and other federal, state and local agencies.
  • American consumers are free to choose from a variety of food sources, ranging from their own gardens to community-supported agriculture to farmers’ markets to specialty stores to mainstream supermarkets, which themselves carry products from a wide variety of producers, processors, and manufacturers. Consumers’ choices have never been greater.
  • The model favored by the makers of “Food, Inc.” – essentially local, small-scale production – is a viable niche in the overall food system, but a very small one. Small-scale farms and ranches simply could not provide sufficient food for 300 million Americans and millions of other people around the world. There is simply not enough land or labor available to make the model work.
  • The cost to consumers would also be prohibitive. Products from small-scale producers are typically more expensive than products from mainstream producers. If a consumer wants to pay more, that is his or her business, but insisting that only expensive products from small-scale operations are worth eating is pure snobbery.
The film also advocates “local” production. That sounds fine until you remember that people in New York want orange juice. Oranges are not grown successfully, on a large scale, in New York. Not to mention rice, peanuts, peaches, pecans, avocados, apricots, dates, figs, kiwi fruit, nectarines, olives, pistachios, and many other crops. Long-distance transportation of fruit, produce, and many other products is a great advantage and allows people across the country to enjoy a varied diet. These days, perishable products can even be brought in from other countries, so that we can have fresh fruit in the winter. Are the makers of Food, Inc. against that?

No system is perfect, but American farmers, ranchers, producers of all kinds, processors, and manufacturers continue to meet the needs of consumers for safe, healthful, and nutritious foods that are convenient and affordable.
 
Sep 23, 2018
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Memphis
#99
Food Inc? Seriously?

I suppose you also buy into Vanni Hari?

Let me recommend a few resources which are actually supported by scientists.

https://www.foodevolutionmovie.com/

Or Kevin Folta

https://gmoanswers.com/experts/kevin-folta

Or the College of Agriculture at Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK

http://casnr.okstate.edu/
You do know that the Ag School does get a lot of funding from ConAgra and Monsanto, among others, correct?

Remember what you said about studies being funded by particular groups? Of course their research is going to come out a specific way.

And what's the problem with "Food, Inc."...? Every single segment in that movie is done by REAL people who work in the food industry in one way or another.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
52,164
18,062
1,743
I buy all my veggies from Whole Foods, rarely from farmer's markets. You have to understand that Whole Foods does sources some of their veggies/fruits from local farms, some from Central America, so on and so forth. But they are from smaller farms, generally speaking.

Now, with that being said, I would suggest you watch "Food, Inc.". It touches on why local family farmers buy from Monsanto (hint: they don't do it because they *want* to).

http://www.takepart.com/foodinc/index.html

I would also suggest watching "Forks over Knives".

https://www.forksoverknives.com/

Now, to be fair, "Forks over Knives" talks about switching to a more veggie-laden diet. If that's not your thing, I get it, Oklahomans generally don't care. Though, I feel like it connects well with "Food, Inc.", which talks more about the actual food industry.

There's a really good segment, right up your alley, in "Food, Inc." that focuses on a small family farm where the guy produces meat and eggs, milk, other stuff. Good insight.
Yes I'm aware of the over priced products at Whole Foods. In fact I have several friends who produce for Whole Foods.