The Ocasio-Cortez Thread

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OrangeFan69

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Her stance on the Amazon deal in her own state was stunningly naïve.
TBH i didn't follow the Amazon story much. I'll look it up.

Overall, Amazon has a good idea, but they seem to go to set unrealistic demands on their lowest level of employee/ contractors and are a major beneficiary of Corporate Welfare - I do believe in receiving tax credit for investment and tax credits for previous year's losses, but I don't feel they are operating with much fiscal integrity.

That being said, I begrudgingly have a prime membership, mainly because where I live in Hollywood it is absolutely a pain in the ass to shop retail.
 

OrangeFan69

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According to The Manhattan Institute's (right leaning) review of Sanders proposals half of the US working population would be collecting their paycheck from the government. His proposals would add over $9 trillion a year in gov't spending, 70% of the country's GDP, and debt would explode in excess of $100 T.
I agree spending would go up, especially for medicine. But right now our medical system is broken. I don't know that socialized medicine is the fix, but I am absolutely confident that complacency is not.

There is little transparency and almost no accountability. I do like some of the changes Trump has proposed, but I don't see him having the gumption to push his trial balloons through Congress.

Many of the Private insurers are a net negative for the American consumer's health. Many (not all, but MANY) pharmaceutical companies are doing more harm than good and many large healthcare providers are failing the Hippocratic Oath.

I am concerned with the student debt relief, I have not studied his plan to ensure economic accountability from the Universities and colleges to ensure they are not grifting the system. I do think the current system has put an undue amount of economic hardship on younger students.

I was fortunate to graduate with an Accounting degree in 4.5 semesters from Oklahoma State, and in between working Summer and night jobs, taking classes at Tulsa CC and Rogers State my Sophomore year, scholarships and savings, I was able to graduate without debt. I benefitted from lower instate tuition, some parental help, and alot of my own ass busting.

I think the climate has changed where every state decreased their funding to higher education (since the 2008 economic crisis) and colleges have also been spending like drunken sailors. Even at OSU the cost of room and board has significantly increased ever since the campus expanded and removed alot of lower rent options for students.

Finally, Many (not all, but definitely MANY) for-profit colleges have absolutely been screwing the US Taxpayer and the uneducated student. The Boards of Directors knowingly running these fake universities being funded by Student Loans should be in jail yesterday.
 

OrangeFan69

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I'm here mainly for the entertainment factor but also because she seems to be the voice of the Democrat base these days and I like to know where that base is.
I think Pelosi is closer to the voice of the Democratic base, but AOC is more attractive and shoots her mouth off more often, so she is much better for soundbytes.

I often felt Paul Ryan was the voice of the Republican base. He usually had the most through answers even if I didn't agree with his ideology, I never felt like he was a whackjob.
 

SLVRBK

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I agree spending would go up, especially for medicine. But right now our medical system is broken. I don't know that socialized medicine is the fix, but I am absolutely confident that complacency is not.

There is little transparency and almost no accountability. I do like some of the changes Trump has proposed, but I don't see him having the gumption to push his trial balloons through Congress.

Many of the Private insurers are a net negative for the American consumer's health. Many (not all, but MANY) pharmaceutical companies are doing more harm than good and many large healthcare providers are failing the Hippocratic Oath.

I am concerned with the student debt relief, I have not studied his plan to ensure economic accountability from the Universities and colleges to ensure they are not grifting the system. I do think the current system has put an undue amount of economic hardship on younger students.

I was fortunate to graduate with an Accounting degree in 4.5 semesters from Oklahoma State, and in between working Summer and night jobs, taking classes at Tulsa CC and Rogers State my Sophomore year, scholarships and savings, I was able to graduate without debt. I benefitted from lower instate tuition, some parental help, and alot of my own ass busting.

I think the climate has changed where every state decreased their funding to higher education (since the 2008 economic crisis) and colleges have also been spending like drunken sailors. Even at OSU the cost of room and board has significantly increased ever since the campus expanded and removed alot of lower rent options for students.

Finally, Many (not all, but definitely MANY) for-profit colleges have absolutely been screwing the US Taxpayer and the uneducated student. The Boards of Directors knowingly running these fake universities being funded by Student Loans should be in jail yesterday.
You can find the FED White Paper online if interested, the rising cost of college is directly tied to government loans/aid. The buildout of student housing and amenities is part of the competition for those dollars.
 
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You can find the FED White Paper online if interested, the rising cost of college is directly tied to government loans/aid. The buildout of student housing and amenities is part of the competition for those dollars.
have to think the push for research status contributes as well since those ventures go beyond teaching kids. I cannot believe grants are capable of fully funding them so tuition has to increase to to help with those costs as well.
 

OrangeFan69

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He supported the Iranians during the hostage crises. If this is even remotely true, it is completely disqualifying.
In the future you may want to check memes before you assume they are truth.

From Snopes.com
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-iran-hostage-crisis/


The Crisis happened 1979-81
Pulley from the Socialist Workers Party criticized the way Carter and America handled the negotiations. Trying to use the hostage situation to justify a war.
The Socialist Workers Party in their own propaganda stated they had zero representation in Vermont in October 1980.
Bernie Sanders was mayor of Burlington, Vermont (the largest city in VT)

I see it as he was palling around with people who were critical of the way Carter handled the hostage crisis.

I don't see it as was supporting Iran for taking the hostages.

I believe the meme-maker has misled you, and I can see how that can happen.


Origin
In January 2020, we received multiple inquiries from readers about the accuracy of a social media meme that made striking claims about the past record of U.S. Sen. and 2020 Democratic presidential contender Bernie Sanders. The meme featured black-and-white photographs of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who led the Islamic revolution of 1979 and became Iran’s supreme leader; former U.S. President Jimmy Carter; and Sanders, along with the following text:
In 1979 Iran took 70 Americans hostage for 444 days. Most [of] America united, but one politician stood alone
Socialist Workers Party leader Bernie Sanders supported Ayatollah Khomeini against the US, condemned President Carter for imperialism, and accused the hostages of being CIA spies.
Is this what Democrat voters stand for?
Bernie Sanders for President?
Maybe in Iran. Not in the US.​

The claims contained in the meme appeared to borrow from two articles published in January 2020, just two weeks before the Democratic presidential primaries began in earnest with the Iowa caucuses.

On Jan. 16, The Daily Beast published an opinion column written by historian Ronald Radosh, which carried the headline, “When Iran Took Americans Hostage, Bernie Backed Iran’s Defenders.” There, Radosh wrote that Sanders “aligned himself with the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the self-proclaimed Trotskyist revolutionary party, became its presidential elector in Vermont, and campaigned for its candidates and platform that defended the Iranian hostage seizure.”


On Jan. 18, The Jerusalem Post published an article that bore the headline, “Bernie Sanders Backed a Party That Supported Iran During Hostage Crisis.” The piece largely restated portions of Radosh’s earlier column.

Important differences exist between the claims made in the above-displayed meme, which contained several key falsehoods, and Radosh’s article, but the latter also omitted important context and made misleading assertions.

Analysis
Sanders and the SWP

The January 2020 meme described Sanders as the “Socialist Workers Party leader.” This is false. Sanders was never even a member of that party, contrary to Radosh’s claim that the future U.S. senator “stood apart by joining a Marxist-Leninist party that not only pledged support for the Iranian theocracy, but also justified the hostage taking” [Emphasis is added].

A spokesperson for the Sanders campaign told Snopes, “Senator Sanders was never a member of the Socialist Workers Party.” This is corroborated by several news reportsfrom that era. In October 1980, the SWP’s newsletter The Militant described Vermont as “a state where there is no branch of the Socialist Workers Party,” further undermining any claim that Sanders, who has lived in Vermont since the late 1960s, was a member of the party (let alone its leader) at that time.

However, Sanders was undoubtedly affiliated with the SWP. In 1980, he served as one of three Vermont Electoral College electors on behalf of the SWP’s presidential candidate and leader Andrew Pulley, a former steelworker and Vietnam War veteran from Chicago. Sanders’ role and Pulley’s candidacy itself were both purely symbolic. Pulley was then only 29 years old and therefore ineligible to serve as president under the U.S. Constitution, and his place on several state ballots, including Vermont, was taken by Clifton DeBerry. Between them, Pulley and DeBerry got just 46,000 votes nationwide.

After Sanders became mayor of Burlington in 1981, running as an independent, his affiliation with Pulley and the SWP continued, and he spoke at SWP campaign events in 1982 and 1984. However, his connection with the party appears to have diminished after that, as Sanders’ own political vision moved from revolutionary socialism to social democracy.

The SWP’s 1984 presidential candidate, Mel Mason, told Washington Times in 2019 that, “We had a long-distance relationship, but that kind of changed after he ran for Congress [in 1990]. I didn’t have as much contact anymore. I have a lot of respect for him, but I just don’t think the programs he put forward are what workers need in this country.”

It’s also important to note that although Sanders supported SWP candidates for president in 1980 and 1984 and spoke at several SWP events, he did not necessarily support or endorse each of their policies or utterances. In fact, Sanders made a point of saying this in the summer of 1980, when it was first announced he would be an SWP elector in that year’s presidential election. At the time, he said, “Although I am not in agreement with the SWP on all issues, I strongly support that party’s attempt to become a nucleus for a national labor party, which will fight for the interests of low income and working people.”

Similarly, Sanders publicly clashed with the SWP on certain issues. At a forum in Worcester, Vermont, in July 1980, he put “demanding questions” to Matilde Zimmermann, the SWP’s vice presidential candidate that year, on the subject of nuclear power. According to Burlington Free Press, “the tone of the questions became almost hostile at moments.” That interaction came just days after Sanders was announced as a Vermont elector for the SWP.

In combination with the fact that Sanders never joined the SWP, held office in it, nor ran on an SWP ticket, this demonstrates that he was broadly supportive of the party’s aims and campaigns for a period, but did not march in lockstep with each and every SWP policy or pronouncement.

The SWP and the Iran Hostage Crisis

During the Iran hostage crisis between 1979 and 1981, the SWP and its leader Pulley did criticize the approach of the U.S. government under then-President Jimmy Carter and at times even expressed support for positions taken by the recently installed, anti-Western, Islamic regime led by Khomeini.

Broadly speaking, the SWP claimed that the Carter administration was cynically using the crisis in order to boost domestic public support for a military conflict with Iran; called on Carter to accede to the Khomeini regime’s demands, including the extradition of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the U.S.-friendly former Shah of Iran who had been overthrown in the 1979 Islamic revolution and fled to the U.S.; and claimed that the U.S. Embassy, which was stormed in the hostage-taking, had been a hub of American intelligence activities, and some of the hostages were spies.

In November 1980, Pulley and his former running mate Zimmermann published a statement calling on Carter to accede to the Iranian regime’s demands, calling them “simple and just,” and said the U.S. should “end its attacks on the Iranian revolution”:

Washington’s refusal to accept the offer of the Iranian parliament for releasing the hostages shows once again the U.S. government’s total lack of concern for their safety and wellbeing. The proposals from Iran are simple and just: no U.S. military or political involvement in Iran; unfreeze the Iranian assets; cancel all claims against Iran; and return the shah’s stolen wealth. If granted, the hostages would immediately be freed. […] We should demand that the U.S. government immediately agree to the proposals from Iran-with no strings attached-and end its attacks on the Iranian revolution.​




A year earlier, Pulley issued the following statement: “American people oppose U.S. support to shah. We will fight any U.S. attempt to intervene in Iran. Long live Iranian revolution!”

We did not find any public statements by Sanders on the subject of the Iran hostage crisis, so the claim that he expressed support for Khomeini was false, and a clear case of “guilt by association” with the utterances of Pulley and the SWP being transferred on to Sanders because of his links to both.

A spokesperson for Sanders’ 2020 presidential campaign indicated he was opposed to SWP policy on Iran at that time, telling Snopes: “Senator Sanders did not think the hostages were spies nor did he support their captivity. Any suggestion otherwise is nonsense.”

However, Sanders’ disagreement with Pulley and the SWP on the Iran hostage crisis was demonstrably not strong enough to prompt him to sever ties with either, given that the future U.S. representative and senator continued to speak at SWP campaign events after the hostage crisis and supported the party’s presidential candidate four years later.

 

Deere Poke

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I believe you may be confusing dictatorships with some of these countries. I'm confident dictatorships of any kind are undesirable.

How would you classify Australia, Canada, Netherlands, and New Zealand?
Capitalist Nations. Bernie openly states he wants the government to take over the means of production which will create a dictatorship in short order. Then there is the whole gulag thing his campaign staff keeps talking about. He still hasn't fired them or spoken out against it.
 

pokes16

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In the future you may want to check memes before you assume they are truth.

From Snopes.com
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-iran-hostage-crisis/


The Crisis happened 1979-81
Pulley from the Socialist Workers Party criticized the way Carter and America handled the negotiations. Trying to use the hostage situation to justify a war.
The Socialist Workers Party in their own propaganda stated they had zero representation in Vermont in October 1980.
Bernie Sanders was mayor of Burlington, Vermont (the largest city in VT)

I see it as he was palling around with people who were critical of the way Carter handled the hostage crisis.

I don't see it as was supporting Iran for taking the hostages.

I believe the meme-maker has misled you, and I can see how that can happen.


Origin
In January 2020, we received multiple inquiries from readers about the accuracy of a social media meme that made striking claims about the past record of U.S. Sen. and 2020 Democratic presidential contender Bernie Sanders. The meme featured black-and-white photographs of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who led the Islamic revolution of 1979 and became Iran’s supreme leader; former U.S. President Jimmy Carter; and Sanders, along with the following text:
In 1979 Iran took 70 Americans hostage for 444 days. Most [of] America united, but one politician stood alone
Socialist Workers Party leader Bernie Sanders supported Ayatollah Khomeini against the US, condemned President Carter for imperialism, and accused the hostages of being CIA spies.
Is this what Democrat voters stand for?
Bernie Sanders for President?
Maybe in Iran. Not in the US.​

The claims contained in the meme appeared to borrow from two articles published in January 2020, just two weeks before the Democratic presidential primaries began in earnest with the Iowa caucuses.

On Jan. 16, The Daily Beast published an opinion column written by historian Ronald Radosh, which carried the headline, “When Iran Took Americans Hostage, Bernie Backed Iran’s Defenders.” There, Radosh wrote that Sanders “aligned himself with the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the self-proclaimed Trotskyist revolutionary party, became its presidential elector in Vermont, and campaigned for its candidates and platform that defended the Iranian hostage seizure.”


On Jan. 18, The Jerusalem Post published an article that bore the headline, “Bernie Sanders Backed a Party That Supported Iran During Hostage Crisis.” The piece largely restated portions of Radosh’s earlier column.

Important differences exist between the claims made in the above-displayed meme, which contained several key falsehoods, and Radosh’s article, but the latter also omitted important context and made misleading assertions.

Analysis
Sanders and the SWP

The January 2020 meme described Sanders as the “Socialist Workers Party leader.” This is false. Sanders was never even a member of that party, contrary to Radosh’s claim that the future U.S. senator “stood apart by joining a Marxist-Leninist party that not only pledged support for the Iranian theocracy, but also justified the hostage taking” [Emphasis is added].

A spokesperson for the Sanders campaign told Snopes, “Senator Sanders was never a member of the Socialist Workers Party.” This is corroborated by several news reportsfrom that era. In October 1980, the SWP’s newsletter The Militant described Vermont as “a state where there is no branch of the Socialist Workers Party,” further undermining any claim that Sanders, who has lived in Vermont since the late 1960s, was a member of the party (let alone its leader) at that time.

However, Sanders was undoubtedly affiliated with the SWP. In 1980, he served as one of three Vermont Electoral College electors on behalf of the SWP’s presidential candidate and leader Andrew Pulley, a former steelworker and Vietnam War veteran from Chicago. Sanders’ role and Pulley’s candidacy itself were both purely symbolic. Pulley was then only 29 years old and therefore ineligible to serve as president under the U.S. Constitution, and his place on several state ballots, including Vermont, was taken by Clifton DeBerry. Between them, Pulley and DeBerry got just 46,000 votes nationwide.

After Sanders became mayor of Burlington in 1981, running as an independent, his affiliation with Pulley and the SWP continued, and he spoke at SWP campaign events in 1982 and 1984. However, his connection with the party appears to have diminished after that, as Sanders’ own political vision moved from revolutionary socialism to social democracy.

The SWP’s 1984 presidential candidate, Mel Mason, told Washington Times in 2019 that, “We had a long-distance relationship, but that kind of changed after he ran for Congress [in 1990]. I didn’t have as much contact anymore. I have a lot of respect for him, but I just don’t think the programs he put forward are what workers need in this country.”

It’s also important to note that although Sanders supported SWP candidates for president in 1980 and 1984 and spoke at several SWP events, he did not necessarily support or endorse each of their policies or utterances. In fact, Sanders made a point of saying this in the summer of 1980, when it was first announced he would be an SWP elector in that year’s presidential election. At the time, he said, “Although I am not in agreement with the SWP on all issues, I strongly support that party’s attempt to become a nucleus for a national labor party, which will fight for the interests of low income and working people.”

Similarly, Sanders publicly clashed with the SWP on certain issues. At a forum in Worcester, Vermont, in July 1980, he put “demanding questions” to Matilde Zimmermann, the SWP’s vice presidential candidate that year, on the subject of nuclear power. According to Burlington Free Press, “the tone of the questions became almost hostile at moments.” That interaction came just days after Sanders was announced as a Vermont elector for the SWP.

In combination with the fact that Sanders never joined the SWP, held office in it, nor ran on an SWP ticket, this demonstrates that he was broadly supportive of the party’s aims and campaigns for a period, but did not march in lockstep with each and every SWP policy or pronouncement.

The SWP and the Iran Hostage Crisis

During the Iran hostage crisis between 1979 and 1981, the SWP and its leader Pulley did criticize the approach of the U.S. government under then-President Jimmy Carter and at times even expressed support for positions taken by the recently installed, anti-Western, Islamic regime led by Khomeini.

Broadly speaking, the SWP claimed that the Carter administration was cynically using the crisis in order to boost domestic public support for a military conflict with Iran; called on Carter to accede to the Khomeini regime’s demands, including the extradition of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the U.S.-friendly former Shah of Iran who had been overthrown in the 1979 Islamic revolution and fled to the U.S.; and claimed that the U.S. Embassy, which was stormed in the hostage-taking, had been a hub of American intelligence activities, and some of the hostages were spies.

In November 1980, Pulley and his former running mate Zimmermann published a statement calling on Carter to accede to the Iranian regime’s demands, calling them “simple and just,” and said the U.S. should “end its attacks on the Iranian revolution”:

Washington’s refusal to accept the offer of the Iranian parliament for releasing the hostages shows once again the U.S. government’s total lack of concern for their safety and wellbeing. The proposals from Iran are simple and just: no U.S. military or political involvement in Iran; unfreeze the Iranian assets; cancel all claims against Iran; and return the shah’s stolen wealth. If granted, the hostages would immediately be freed. […] We should demand that the U.S. government immediately agree to the proposals from Iran-with no strings attached-and end its attacks on the Iranian revolution.​




A year earlier, Pulley issued the following statement: “American people oppose U.S. support to shah. We will fight any U.S. attempt to intervene in Iran. Long live Iranian revolution!”

We did not find any public statements by Sanders on the subject of the Iran hostage crisis, so the claim that he expressed support for Khomeini was false, and a clear case of “guilt by association” with the utterances of Pulley and the SWP being transferred on to Sanders because of his links to both.

A spokesperson for Sanders’ 2020 presidential campaign indicated he was opposed to SWP policy on Iran at that time, telling Snopes: “Senator Sanders did not think the hostages were spies nor did he support their captivity. Any suggestion otherwise is nonsense.”

However, Sanders’ disagreement with Pulley and the SWP on the Iran hostage crisis was demonstrably not strong enough to prompt him to sever ties P{ESwith either, given that the future U.S. representative and senator continued to speak at SWP campaign events after the hostage crisis and supported the party’s presidential candidate four years later.

SNOPES is confirmed fake news checker
 

jakeman

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They used to be good now they are a partisan hackathon. Something changed in the financing and staffing then it went to hell.

When it first started it was an urban legend website. Then one of the owners started screwing the help, which is never a good idea, and then it went to hell.