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Rack

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The government is already a supplier of money to the masses and has been for a long time.
Are you for UBI for everyone as well? Competition and desire to improve ones self are the staples of our society. Remove them and we remove innovation. I understand that some think UBI won't' do that, but it has the ability to really slow down our need too get off our butts and go to work in order to eat. This is a very important motivation...when we remove one need we actual are creating another one. This is a conceptional disagreement and it's a waste of time to argue about it.

As a Christian, here's what we need to do to heal our land...Not UBI or other programs that our out of our control...notice this is ONLY for believers…This IS the solution for our nation if it is sincerely and truly done by each and every believer…

2 Chronicles 7:14 14if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

So many "Christians" think this is admonishment of the lost...it is not AT ALL...they are not "his people", it is for us believers and us only. It requires daily repentance. I don't do this enough, so he's silent until I do, when I do, really do, then he hears and "speaks" healing into my "land." This is the key to unlock healing for our nation...not programs like UBI or anything else a well meaning populace or government can or will do.

As such, I ask forgiveness of you specifically, and others... for all my ranting a railing on this message board. It is indeed a waste of time for me. It likely profits very little to those I'm speaking and just highlights my own arrogance and lack of love for my fellow man. I'm going to ATTEMPT to cut back starting today. God will need to do this for me, because it's actually an addiction. God Speed to all of you, I know you all mean well.
 
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RxCowboy

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Are you for UBI for everyone as well? Competition and desire to improve ones self are the staples of our society. Remove them and we remove innovation. I understand that some think UBI won't' do that, but it has the ability to really slow down our need too get off our butts and go to work in order to eat. This is a very important motivation...when we remove one need we actual are creating another one. This is a conceptional disagreement and it's a waste of time to argue about it.

As a Christian, here's what we need to do to heal our land...Not UBI or other programs that our out of our control...notice this is ONLY for believers…This IS the solution for our nation if it is sincerely and truly done by each and every believer…

2 Chronicles 7:14 14if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

So many "Christians" think this is admonishment of the lost...it is not AT ALL...they are not "his people", it is for us believers and us only. It requires daily repentance. I don't do this enough, so he's silent until I do, when I do, really do, then he hears and "speaks" healing into my "land." This is the key to unlock healing for our nation...not programs like UBI or anything else a well meaning populace or government can or will do.

As such, I ask forgiveness of you specifically, and others... for all my ranting a railing on this message board. It is indeed a waste of time for me. It likely profits very little to those I'm speaking and just highlights my own arrogance and lack of love for my fellow man. I'm going to ATTEMPT to cut back starting today. God will need to do this for me, because it's actually an addiction. God Speed to all of you, I know you all mean well.
2 Chronicles 7:13 “When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people

We are not in the midst of a drought or plague of locusts. Christians are not a people-group in the same way that Israel was a people-group. The Christian Covenant is an individual covenant and not a people-group covenant as was the Mosiac Covenant (i.e. I will be your God and you will be my people). The Christian Covenant is entered into one person at a time by choice, not by birth-right. You are misapplying 2 Chron 7:14, taking it out of context. God had brought a drought on Israel because of their unfaithfulness as a nation. Christians do not live under the Deutero-Levitical system of blessings and curses and are not cursed as a nation as was Israel. Therefore, God will not bring drought or plague onto our lands anymore because of national unfaithfulness.

I didn't say I was for UBI. What I said was the the federal government is already a supplier of money to the masses and has been for a long time. I don't see it changing any time soon.
 

Rack

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2 Chronicles 7:13 “When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people

We are not in the midst of a drought or plague of locusts. Christians are not a people-group in the same way that Israel was a people-group. The Christian Covenant is an individual covenant and not a people-group covenant as was the Mosiac Covenant (i.e. I will be your God and you will be my people). The Christian Covenant is entered into one person at a time by choice, not by birth-right. You are misapplying 2 Chron 7:14, taking it out of context. God had brought a drought on Israel because of their unfaithfulness as a nation. Christians do not live under the Deutero-Levitical system of blessings and curses and are not cursed as a nation as was Israel. Therefore, God will not bring drought or plague onto our lands anymore because of national unfaithfulness.

I didn't say I was for UBI. What I said was the the federal government is already a supplier of money to the masses and has been for a long time. I don't see it changing any time soon.
2 Timothy 3:16

While I do agree that we are not Israel and understand how some make that mistake in nation worship and agree with the overall sentiment of what you are saying. However, in the Bible, God allows nations to rise and fall due his purposes. He is also able to be reasoned with as Abraham did regarding sparing certain cities for a time. This is spoken of many times in scripture. Babylon rose and fell, Persia took over in it's place due to their treatment of Israel and God wanting them to return to the promised land again. IF we want to heal our land/nation/churches a good start is to repent personally, and it does matter if enough of us do it. This goes for us just like it did for Nineveh among many other nations. So, yeah, better verses for me to quote that are in context are...

"The people of Nineveh listened, and trusted God. They proclaimed a citywide fast and dressed in burlap to show their repentance. Everyone did it—rich and poor, famous and obscure, leaders and followers.
God saw what they had done, that they had turned away from their evil lives. He did change his mind about them. What he said he would do to them he didn’t do."

Genesis 12:3
Daniel 4: 34-37
Acts 17:26
Ezra 1: 1-4
2 Chronicles 36: 23

Also read Psalms 91..just good for all of us for times like these.

Btw, Christians are the "Bride of Christ," so that is indeed a people group and he has promised to provide for and protect us...
 

RxCowboy

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2 Timothy 3:16

While I do agree that we are not Israel and understand how some make that mistake in nation worship and agree with the overall sentiment of what you are saying. However, in the Bible, God allows nations to rise and fall due his purposes. He is also able to be reasoned with as Abraham did regarding sparing certain cities for a time. This is spoken of many times in scripture. Babylon rose and fell, Persia took over in it's place due to their treatment of Israel and God wanting them to return to the promised land again. IF we want to heal our land/nation/churches a good start is to repent personally, and it does matter if enough of us do it. This goes for us just like it did for Nineveh among many other nations. So, yeah, better verses for me to quote that are in context are...

"The people of Nineveh listened, and trusted God. They proclaimed a citywide fast and dressed in burlap to show their repentance. Everyone did it—rich and poor, famous and obscure, leaders and followers.
God saw what they had done, that they had turned away from their evil lives. He did change his mind about them. What he said he would do to them he didn’t do."

Genesis 12:3
Daniel 4: 34-37
Acts 17:26
Ezra 1: 1-4
2 Chronicles 36: 23

Also read Psalms 91..just good for all of us for times like these.

Btw, Christians are the "Bride of Christ," so that is indeed a people group and he has promised to provide for and protect us...
Why did nations rise and fall in the OT? Who did Ninevah listen to? And if that is the example, we are a secular nation, how on earth are we going to get everyone in sackcloth and ashes?

"Bride of Christ" is an apocalyptic metaphor. The covenant is entered into one person at a time. Your children are not saved because you are saved. Unlike Israel, there is no nationality that is "God's people".

Acts 17:26... Paul is lecturing on the nature of God. To try to claim that you are part of a people-group because of Acts 17:26 is taking it out of context and torturing it.
 

Rack

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Why did nations rise and fall in the OT? Who did Ninevah listen to? And if that is the example, we are a secular nation, how on earth are we going to get everyone in sackcloth and ashes?

"Bride of Christ" is an apocalyptic metaphor. The covenant is entered into one person at a time. Your children are not saved because you are saved. Unlike Israel, there is no nationality that is "God's people".

Acts 17:26... Paul is lecturing on the nature of God. To try to claim that you are part of a people-group because of Acts 17:26 is taking it out of context and torturing it.
1. They listened to Jonah and God, yet they were a believer in all sorts of gods....yet they had no problem listening to their leader as well, not sure why, but I think God did that. I'm not saying to put on literal sackcloth and ashes, but to realize our ruin without Christ.
2. "We" can't...we can pray powerfully for the Holy Spirit to bring that type of unifying response.
3. I agree with the 2nd and 3rd comments in paragraph two, I know my Children and Spouse have to come to Christ on their own and that the covenant is entered into one at a time directly with God through Jesus out of nothing we can do...just surrendering it all to him...however he puts us in fellowship with one another for his purposes through the Church. Which is a group of those covenant individual members of the WAY(i.e. the Bride). We are still in the church age...scripture says that won't always be...it's not an "apocalyptic metaphor" it's the book of Revelations and it has a purpose in the Bible. God's people (i.e. the Church) are the ones he is in covenant with now...those he has set aside/or who have entrusted themselves to him (depending on your theology). Granted these are doctrine arguments...bottom line, but if my doctrine keeps you or me from praying for our nation and it's leaders salvation and the greater good that will come from that...I don't think that's good at all.

As saints still on Earth we are being refined with fire in order to be made worthy at death by his blood sacrifice to receive our reward. It's our duty to pray for our leaders along with everyone else in our society. Those suffering from Covid, pray for a real cure, pray for fearlessness and pray for wisdom. Despite our doctrinal differences, these are our duty as saved ones living in the community called the United States, just as it would have been if we lived in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus or other areas at the beginning of the Church Age. He left his holy spirit here to give our prayers power. I believe that they have that power. Watch this video and please try to listen to the message disregarding anything that may be in your mind to not listen. I don't agree with 100% of this prayer because God's will sometimes has to refine us with fire...like marriage break ups, sons who run away and adopt different beliefs, deaths of family members...God's even bigger than this guy says and he says he's pretty great...but I do believe in the overall message and it's powerful.






"You're not talking to the President of the United States or Bill Gates neither of them can control their next breath."
 
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RxCowboy

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3. I agree with the 2nd and 3rd comments in paragraph two, I know my Children and Spouse have to come to Christ on their own and that the covenant is entered into one at a time directly with God through Jesus out of nothing we can do...just surrendering it all to him...however he puts us in fellowship with one another for his purposes through the Church. Which is a group of those covenant individual members of the WAY(i.e. the Bride). We are still in the church age...scripture says that won't always be...it's not an "apocalyptic metaphor" it's the book of Revelations and it has a purpose in the Bible. God's people (i.e. the Church) are the ones he is in covenant with now...those he has set aside/or who have entrusted themselves to him (depending on your theology). Granted these are doctrine arguments...bottom line, but if my doctrine keeps you or me from praying for our nation and it's leaders salvation and the greater good that will come from that...I don't think that's good at all.
From Fee and Stuart's commentary on Revelation below. Apocalyptic style is a literary genre found in the Bible. It is found in several places in the OT, but only one place in the NT, the Revelation of John. Apocalyptic style is unique in its use of imagery and metaphor. "The Whore of Babylon" is not a literal whore, nor is she literally of Babylon, but it is apocalyptic metaphoric imagery. The "Bride of Christ" is not a literal bride, Jesus is not going to marry and then consummate and fornicate with the Church. It is a metaphor for the union between Church and Savior. If it is literal, then men are brides and we men are all trans.

My doctrine doesn't keep me from praying for our nation. My doctrine helps me understand exactly what it is that I'm praying for by rightly understanding my place in the Church and the role of scripture in instructing me. My doctrine also helps me have reasonable and healthy expectations. "Heal your land" was literal, heal the land from drought and famine so that it would produce and feed people. It was brought on by the curse for national unfaithfulness under the Mosaic Covenant. It is not a "spiritual" "heal your land" because the spiritual healing, repentance and obedience, had to happen before the healing of the land could. If we suffer a curse because of national unfaithfulness in our secular culture, there is no way out of it because we live in a secular culture that will never come to national repentance and obedience.

1599646802450.png
 
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RxCowboy

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3. I agree with the 2nd and 3rd comments in paragraph two, I know my Children and Spouse have to come to Christ on their own and that the covenant is entered into one at a time directly with God through Jesus out of nothing we can do...just surrendering it all to him...however he puts us in fellowship with one another for his purposes through the Church. Which is a group of those covenant individual members of the WAY(i.e. the Bride). We are still in the church age...scripture says that won't always be...it's not an "apocalyptic metaphor" it's the book of Revelations and it has a purpose in the Bible. God's people (i.e. the Church) are the ones he is in covenant with now...those he has set aside/or who have entrusted themselves to him (depending on your theology). Granted these are doctrine arguments...bottom line, but if my doctrine keeps you or me from praying for our nation and it's leaders salvation and the greater good that will come from that...I don't think that's good at all.
From another Fee and Stuart text:

CHAPTER 13 Revelation: Images of Judgment and Hope​
When turning to the book of Revelation from the rest of the New Testament, the ordinary modern reader may feel as though they are entering a foreign country. Instead of narratives and letters containing plain statements of fact and imperatives, one comes to a book full of angels, trumpets, and earthquakes; of beasts, dragons, and bottomless pits. The hermeneutical problems are intrinsic. The book is in the canon; for us it is God’s Word, inspired of the Holy Spirit. Yet when we come to it to hear this word, most of us in the church today hardly know what to make of it. The author sometimes speaks forthrightly: “I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus” (1:9). He writes to seven known churches in known cities with recognizable first-century conditions. At the same time, however, there is a rich, diverse symbolism, some of which is manageable (judgment in the form of an earthquake; 6:12 – 17), while some is more obscure (the two witnesses; 11:1 – 10). Most of the problems stem from the symbols, plus the fact that the book often deals with future events, while at the same time it is set in a recognizable first-century context. The problem is also related to the thoroughgoing way that John sees everything in light of the Old Testament, which he cites or echoes over 250 times, so that every significant moment in his narrative is imaged almost exclusively in Old Testament language (see How to 2, pp. 428 – 29).​
Fee, Gordon D.. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (p. 258). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

Apocalyptic literature has to be interpreted as apocalyptic literature. It should not be interpreted as narrative, didactic, wisdom, or poetic literature, because it is none of those literary forms.
 

Rack

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From another Fee and Stuart text:

CHAPTER 13 Revelation: Images of Judgment and Hope​
When turning to the book of Revelation from the rest of the New Testament, the ordinary modern reader may feel as though they are entering a foreign country. Instead of narratives and letters containing plain statements of fact and imperatives, one comes to a book full of angels, trumpets, and earthquakes; of beasts, dragons, and bottomless pits. The hermeneutical problems are intrinsic. The book is in the canon; for us it is God’s Word, inspired of the Holy Spirit. Yet when we come to it to hear this word, most of us in the church today hardly know what to make of it. The author sometimes speaks forthrightly: “I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus” (1:9). He writes to seven known churches in known cities with recognizable first-century conditions. At the same time, however, there is a rich, diverse symbolism, some of which is manageable (judgment in the form of an earthquake; 6:12 – 17), while some is more obscure (the two witnesses; 11:1 – 10). Most of the problems stem from the symbols, plus the fact that the book often deals with future events, while at the same time it is set in a recognizable first-century context. The problem is also related to the thoroughgoing way that John sees everything in light of the Old Testament, which he cites or echoes over 250 times, so that every significant moment in his narrative is imaged almost exclusively in Old Testament language (see How to 2, pp. 428 – 29).​
Fee, Gordon D.. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (p. 258). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

Apocalyptic literature has to be interpreted as apocalyptic literature. It should not be interpreted as narrative, didactic, wisdom, or poetic literature, because it is none of those literary forms.
I believe it is all of those forms in one book. It's the wrap up of scripture a coming together and a finality of the end and a new beginning...all scripture, both Old and New Testament...it was written to the seven churches of Asia by John on Patmos in Greece while he was disposed by the Roman Emperor.

I love this guy, Tim Mackey, you might enjoy this piece of artistic work by him. I admit that I don't understand Revelation and think that too many Christians waste a lot of time trying to figure out it's meaning in the future sense. Ultimately I believe it is designed to give us comfort that God's "got this, all of this"...and he already did it through the lamb that was slain yet lives...he also does it moving forward in time though the Christians who were and are yet to be slain, die, or be removed with trust in his name. The details of that are in this videos in an interesting story book kind of way. Once again, I'm not sure of anything regarding this book, but I do like the way this guy teaches...I do however still believe the church is the "bride" of the lamb that was slain or Christ (it seems to me that Revelation is imagery that represents reality, some future and some past) and an important part of that, is that "his" people are gathered together for his good purposes. For sake of time skip forward to 21 minutes in.

Here's a plainly put teaching on the book of Revelation. It's long, but it's good I think.
 
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Rack

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Okay, then explain to me how it fits the genre of narrative in the same way as, say, 1 & 2 Chronicles, or didactic in the same way as Deuteronomy, or wisdom in the same way as Proverbs. I look forward to your explanation.
Once again, I think it's silly for Christians to argue over Revelation....our mission is to "seek and to save that which is lost," to preach that Christ is Savior and provides forgiveness that we cannot obtain through our own work, life, being a "good" person, or otherwise as it is a freely given gift of love (grace). When we argue over it, it does not profit anyone and detracts from our mission, in my opinion. We are talking about slightly different things...you are talking about specific writing styles and I'm talking about genres. I'm not sure why you pick out the one thing I say that might be a little off and focus on that only? I'm just a dude, not a Biblical scholar, I'm saved by the grace of God and a family member of those who also are. Anyway here is someone's take on it being different genres. Once again, I would encourage you to watch the Tim Mackey video above and just skip the introductions and directions and go right into it...followed by his graphic work on it. He did an entire series on this covering the entire bible I think it's good for teaching the bible and understanding it for those styles of learners that aren't able to pick it up as well. It certainly helps people like me to study. Here's the answer, not mine...at least to what I meant even if it wasn't what you asked about...

"Revelation employs at least three genres. The very first word of the book, in Greek, is apocalypse or "apokalupsis," so, this book, John is identifying it as a "revelation" or perhaps an "unveiling." So it's, number one, it's an apocalypse which is, it's as though the veil is being pulled back, and people are being allowed to see things as they really are. Number two, it's a prophecy. Revelation 1:3: "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy." So I think we can say that Revelation is an apocalyptic prophecy. And some have distinguished between an apocalypse, being concerned with the events of the very end of history, the consummation of all things, and perhaps, heavenly realities, and then a prophecy, dealing with the actual outworking of history. And then thirdly, Revelation employs features of an epistle. So around verse 4, John begins to say, "John, to the seven churches," and then he addresses those seven churches. There's a blessing much like the format of Paul's letters. So if you compare Revelation 1:4-8 or so, the opening there is very similar to the opening of some of Paul's letters. And then it concludes, the whole book concludes with a grace that is very similar to the way that Paul concludes his letters. So I think we can say that Revelation is an apocalyptic prophecy in the form of a circular letter. And there was probably a letter carrier who would have delivered this writing to these churches, and then read it aloud in Christian worship."
 

RxCowboy

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Once again, I think it's silly for Christians to argue over Revelation
I haven't argued for or against any particular interpretation of Revelation. The approach to interpretation that I'm talking about is called hermeneutics and it is an approach to interpretation of all scripture according to the literary genre; that is, interpreting the genre as the author has written it.

apocalypse or "apokalupsis," so, this book, John is identifying it as a "revelation" or perhaps an "unveiling."
So it's, number one, it's an apocalypse. . .
Number two, it's a prophecy. . .
And then thirdly, Revelation employs features of an epistle.
And that is entirely consistent with what Fee and Stuart say of it. However, when I said the "Bride of Christ" was apocalyptic imagery, you disagreed. You've posted nothing that would actually counter that, and you've argued in circles. This actually confirms that "Bride of Christ" is apocalyptic imagery.

The prophecy in Revelation is always problematic because it appears to be both near (the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) and far (the Battle of Har Meggedo and the New Heavens and New Earth).
 

Rack

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From Fee and Stuart's commentary on Revelation below. Apocalyptic style is a literary genre found in the Bible. It is found in several places in the OT, but only one place in the NT, the Revelation of John. Apocalyptic style is unique in its use of imagery and metaphor. "The Whore of Babylon" is not a literal whore, nor is she literally of Babylon, but it is apocalyptic metaphoric imagery. The "Bride of Christ" is not a literal bride, Jesus is not going to marry and then consummate and fornicate with the Church. It is a metaphor for the union between Church and Savior. If it is literal, then men are brides and we men are all trans.

My doctrine doesn't keep me from praying for our nation. My doctrine helps me understand exactly what it is that I'm praying for by rightly understanding my place in the Church and the role of scripture in instructing me. My doctrine also helps me have reasonable and healthy expectations. "Heal your land" was literal, heal the land from drought and famine so that it would produce and feed people. It was brought on by the curse for national unfaithfulness under the Mosaic Covenant. It is not a "spiritual" "heal your land" because the spiritual healing, repentance and obedience, had to happen before the healing of the land could. If we suffer a curse because of national unfaithfulness in our secular culture, there is no way out of it because we live in a secular culture that will never come to national repentance and obedience.

View attachment 85528
I agree with most of what you said here, just disagree slightly with your last statement. I understand the symbolic nature of the "Bride" of Christ. Back to original reason for my posting of the scripture about praying for a nation or the "land." I believe that we can attempt to change God's mind on wrath as seen in the Nevaeh, Jacob wrestling with God, Moses on occasion, Abraham, all these examples among others are man attempting to understand and to reason with God. This is why we must repent and confess often and always. My POINT was that the CHRUCH is called by his name and it needs to repent.

I believe God has proven that he cares about and brings safety for those who pray for it, even for nations he chooses to rise up and fall for his purposes. Does that mean our nation is doomed? Maybe, but that's not up to me to judge it is however mine to beg that he doesn't forget us and that he does forgive us...in fact it seems he has greatly used our nation to further his purposes with Israel and the Jews as just one example throughout our history. He has also used us as a great support of missions all over the world.

However, all we have to do is look at the history of other "empires" to see where that heads when we stop, nationally, looking to serve God's purposes...His purposes of grace, love, reconciliation, and forgiveness and to fight against those forces that oppose these tenants of Christian faith. Does the church fail in this...certainly, but overall these are the reasons for our faith...to unite people in grace, love and reconciliation and to provide healing.

I will also tell you this...Yes I took the verse out of it's literal context. But, I do believe Timothy 3:16...when it says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"...Certainly context is important, I honestly think this God inspired verse fits our times in our nation and not JUST one time in history. At the same time, I also agree with you that "nation worship" is dangerous to believers. Scripture, however, is timeless, even when it's meant for specific times like famine and drought...it can also apply to spiritual famine and drought. This is the beauty of scripture.

My point, is that while I did take that verse out of it's literal context, the context I applied it to is just and praying for a nation is righteous if you care about that nation. I honestly don't see any harm in praying for spiritual awaking for a nation, nor do I see it as out of the current historical context to quote this verse if it's done for the right reasons.
 

Rack

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I haven't argued for or against any particular interpretation of Revelation. The approach to interpretation that I'm talking about is called hermeneutics and it is an approach to interpretation of all scripture according to the literary genre; that is, interpreting the genre as the author has written it.


And that is entirely consistent with what Fee and Stuart say of it. However, when I said the "Bride of Christ" was apocalyptic imagery, you disagreed. You've posted nothing that would actually counter that, and you've argued in circles. This actually confirms that "Bride of Christ" is apocalyptic imagery.

The prophecy in Revelation is always problematic because it appears to be both near (the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) and far (the Battle of Har Meggedo and the New Heavens and New Earth).
Once again, I'm not a Biblical scholar. Just a servant saved by grace. I just don't think of the Bride (metaphor) of Christ in a negative fashion and "apocalyptic" seems like a negative word to this Okie. That was my point. I really don't think it's profitable to argue over these things as, once again, our calling isn't in arguing theology or scripture but seeking to save that which is lost. This, above all else, is our calling. Sorry I spent too much time on this.

May your day and mine bring honor to our lord and savior in the way we treat his creation. His creation, being the human beings we come in contact with daily who he STILL, no matter what they have done or not done, wants a to have relationship with. They are our responsibility...in terms of how we treat them and the testimony we give by our actions. I need to stop failing in his mission for me and STOP arguing on message boards. Pray that I can stop arguing, it's not his will for me but a habit and a crutch that keeps me from being productive in his ministry. Pray that I find exactly what that is for me.

In shared brotherhood.

Rack
 

wrenhal

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Once again, I think it's silly for Christians to argue over Revelation
I haven't argued for or against any particular interpretation of Revelation. The approach to interpretation that I'm talking about is called hermeneutics and it is an approach to interpretation of all scripture according to the literary genre; that is, interpreting the genre as the author has written it.

apocalypse or "apokalupsis," so, this book, John is identifying it as a "revelation" or perhaps an "unveiling."
So it's, number one, it's an apocalypse. . .
Number two, it's a prophecy. . .
And then thirdly, Revelation employs features of an epistle.
And that is entirely consistent with what Fee and Stuart say of it. However, when I said the "Bride of Christ" was apocalyptic imagery, you disagreed. You've posted nothing that would actually counter that, and you've argued in circles. This actually confirms that "Bride of Christ" is apocalyptic imagery.

The prophecy in Revelation is always problematic because it appears to be both near (the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) and far (the Battle of Har Meggedo and the New Heavens and New Earth).
We are described as the bride of Christ and Jesus the bride groom, in other parts of the New Testament, so it's not limited to Revelation.

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RxCowboy

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I just don't think of the Bride (metaphor) of Christ in a negative fashion and "apocalyptic" seems like a negative word to this Okie.
What on earth makes you think "metaphor" or "imagery" or "apocalyptic" are negative? Jesus was using imagery when he told his parables. John used metaphor when he used the word "logos" to begin his Gospel. Ezekiel and Daniel both wrote in apocalyptic style. Jesus gave apocalyptic prophecies. Maybe you ought to really educate yourself on the term instead of arguing against something you clearly don't understand.
 

RxCowboy

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I will also tell you this...Yes I took the verse out of it's literal context. But, I do believe Timothy 3:16...when it says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"...Certainly context is important, I honestly think this God inspired verse fits our times in our nation and not JUST one time in history.
I am a "whole gospel" believer, which means that I believe the entire Bible is a progressive revelation that is intended for us, the entirety from Genesis to Revelation. But in order to understand what it means to us we must first understand what a particular scripture meant to the original audience. If we start at an understanding that is far different from the original audience then we are likely in error. For instance, when Abraham said, "God will provide the ram" if you read "ram" as "random access memory" then you have made an error, because there is no way on earth the original audience could have understood it that way. So, when we approach 2 Chron 7:14 we have to place it in its context to figure out what the author was saying to the original audience, which means we can't ignore verse 13 which places it in the context of the Mosaic Covenant and its system of blessings and curses. So, what does that mean to us, we who have been delivered from the curse? That is then what we must seek to understand. What does that tell us about *our* relationship with God. It does not and cannot mean that God will "heal America" because that removes it so far from its context that it makes it unrecognizable.

At the same time, I also agree with you that "nation worship" is dangerous to believers. Scripture, however, is timeless, even when it's meant for specific times like famine and drought...it can also apply to spiritual famine and drought. This is the beauty of scripture.
"Nation worship"? Who on earth said that? "National faithfulness" and "nation worship" are very different things. God told the nation of Israel, "I will be your God and you will be my people." Then in Deutero-Levitical law he laid out a system of blessings and curses based on Israel's faithfulness to the covenant, their national faithfulness in keeping the law. That isn't "nation worship", it is "worship as a nation."

And no, it can't apply to "spiritual" famine and drought, because we live under a different covenant. It can't apply to "spiritual" famine and drought because those aren't curses brought on by our national unfaithfulness. In this age of the Church and the Christian Covenant, each person is responsible for their own belief. The covenant, the contract is different. Your faithfulness, or lack thereof, doesn't affect my blessings or vice versa.
 

Rack

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I am a "whole gospel" believer, which means that I believe the entire Bible is a progressive revelation that is intended for us, the entirety from Genesis to Revelation. But in order to understand what it means to us we must first understand what a particular scripture meant to the original audience. If we start at an understanding that is far different from the original audience then we are likely in error. For instance, when Abraham said, "God will provide the ram" if you read "ram" as "random access memory" then you have made an error, because there is no way on earth the original audience could have understood it that way. So, when we approach 2 Chron 7:14 we have to place it in its context to figure out what the author was saying to the original audience, which means we can't ignore verse 13 which places it in the context of the Mosaic Covenant and its system of blessings and curses. So, what does that mean to us, we who have been delivered from the curse? That is then what we must seek to understand. What does that tell us about *our* relationship with God. It does not and cannot mean that God will "heal America" because that removes it so far from its context that it makes it unrecognizable.


"Nation worship"? Who on earth said that? "National faithfulness" and "nation worship" are very different things. God told the nation of Israel, "I will be your God and you will be my people." Then in Deutero-Levitical law he laid out a system of blessings and curses based on Israel's faithfulness to the covenant, their national faithfulness in keeping the law. That isn't "nation worship", it is "worship as a nation."

And no, it can't apply to "spiritual" famine and drought, because we live under a different covenant. It can't apply to "spiritual" famine and drought because those aren't curses brought on by our national unfaithfulness. In this age of the Church and the Christian Covenant, each person is responsible for their own belief. The covenant, the contract is different. Your faithfulness, or lack thereof, doesn't affect my blessings or vice versa.
Brother...you aren't praying hard enough for me to not be argumentative. ;)

By "Nation worship" I mean placing our own nation in the place of Israel...being so patriotic that we cannot see injustice...putting country over Jesus. I think you totally agree that is a problem for some. I didn't say you said it, I said that is how I say it when I encounter it in church folk that I care about.

I'm also a whole Gospel guy...I also believe that scripture is as supernatural as God is and as such it can provide what each person needs provided at each time and place. Is that sometimes misused as Satan did when he tempted Jesus...yep...is it being misused here? I don't think so, but we are all welcome to disagree on that detail.

Too many words and too much back and forth is BOTH our problems. We need to give a ton to God, offer up prayer and let him "fight" our battles, realizing we are just his tools in his workshop, but sometimes its FAR better for us to go back in the tool box for a while. This is one of those times. Here's a verse...with context that I think we both could learn a lot from...

“Be still and know that I am God”
Psalm 46:10, is a popular verse for comforting ourselves and others—many people tend to think this verse means to rest or relax in who God is. This verse does encourage believers to reflect on who God is, but there is more to this psalm than one verse—and verse 10 is actually more of a wake-up call to be in awe than a gentle call to rest. Taking time out of our day to meditate on Scripture and be silent with listening ears toward God is mentioned in other sections of Scripture (Psalm 119:15, Joshua 1:8, Luke 5:16, and others). But this command—“Be still…”—is written in the context of a time of trouble and war; therefore, we should consider the verse with that context in mind.

Instead of interpreting “be still” as a gentle suggestion, the meaning in this psalm lends itself more to: “cease striving” or “stop” and more specifically in this context “stop fighting,” which is directed toward the enemies of the people of God. The people of God should interpret the command for themselves to read more like: ‘snap out of it,’ ‘wake up,’ ‘stop fearing’—acknowledge who your God is—be in awe! However, it is good to note that there’s nothing wrong with the words in the translation “be still;” those words are not incorrect, it is simply helpful to note the context of the phrase. Verse 10 has something to say to both the enemies of God and the people of God, but it is the people of God the psalm is written to. Verse 1 starts, “God is our refuge and strength” (emphasis added). The Psalms are for God’s people.
 

Rack

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What on earth makes you think "metaphor" or "imagery" or "apocalyptic" are negative? Jesus was using imagery when he told his parables. John used metaphor when he used the word "logos" to begin his Gospel. Ezekiel and Daniel both wrote in apocalyptic style. Jesus gave apocalyptic prophecies. Maybe you ought to really educate yourself on the term instead of arguing against something you clearly don't understand.
I see "apocalyptic" as negative because I don't want to see the world judged. I care about mankind and want it to move to a better place...not an apocalyptic one. I don't see the other two words as negative in any way. Once again, I'm Okie and I'm just being honest...maybe it's not the informed way to see "apocalyptic" but I do see it as a word with the connotations of judgement and that makes me sad for those judged. Does that give you a better understanding on how I, personally, see it as a "negative" word, not the word itself but what it means to have it happen (i.e. the apocalypse?)