Student Loan Cancellation Sets Up Clash Between Biden and the Left

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steross

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#22
I'm sorry, but Soldiers don't drive to the battle field in their Tesla's....
Again, this is the attitude that is going to kill the medical profession. Who cares if the hospital administration in the past was a doc who took a stipend and is now a "health care administrator" who often makes 7 figures plus performance bonuses for screwing patients and doctors even more. Front line doctor pay is decreasing dramatically. But they are still well paid so f-em.

And, yes, some soldiers do drive to the battlefield in a Tesla. Well, some airmen for sure.
 

steross

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#23
What's next, ethics Police? I work at a health care system, I've not missed a single day...grated I'm not a front line Covid ward employee but I am responsible for the mask/temp station. Certainly nurses and doctors have made sacrifices and many of those deserve that sort of reward, but I'm not sure that's equitable across the board without some sort of preference given to those with actual need like lower pay scale employees in healthcare...MOST doctors should not be in a boat that they need their college debt forgiven...I'd be for some sort of long term medical insurance that is guaranteed for them like the military gets as a reward or something like that. That would be a nice reward.
Most doctors don't need a bunch of people that "work in health care" and make 6 figures walking around the hospital making our lives difficult.

I tell you what. Skip the loan repayment. Skip the extra "health insurance."

Just reverse this graph. Get rid of all this dead weight that has not improved anything but their own pocketbooks, ENFORCE the laws against the corporate practice of medicine, and get back to physicians and nurses running health care and we can call it good.

 
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#24
Again, this is the attitude that is going to kill the medical profession. Who cares if the hospital administration in the past was a doc who took a stipend and is now a "health care administrator" who often makes 7 figures plus performance bonuses for screwing patients and doctors even more. Front line doctor pay is decreasing dramatically. But they are still well paid so f-em.

And, yes, some soldiers do drive to the battlefield in a Tesla. Well, some airmen for sure.
I get the concern about how the hospital administrator model is killing the industry. But to my understanding, doctors are still paid well, very well above average. So to the OP, why should they be given a pass on their loans? And again, do not the people becoming doctors have some idea as to what they can reasonably expect as a salary and factor that into whatever financial encumbrances they voluntarily sign up for? Your final line of "F-em" seems to imply you feel they should have loans erased because of their profession. As I wrote above, yes, doctors are the visible face of saving lives, but good luck doing it without everyone else. I do not see how anyone can draw a line based on occupation.

And I am sure you know, the medical industry is not the only profession that is going through the exact same scenario. Industries all over are being over-managed, bought, sold, consolidated, farmed out, etc. and have changed focus from the product made/lives saved, to how much money can be made.
 
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#25
Most doctors don't need a bunch of people that "work in health care and make 6 figures walking around the hospital making our lives difficult.

I tell you what. Skip the loan repayment. Skip the extra "health insurance."

Just reverse this graph. Get rid of all this dead weight that has not improved anything but their own pocketbooks, ENFORCE the laws against the corporate practice of medicine, and get back to physicians and nurses running health care and we can call it good.

Now this I can get on board with and then we can start addressing the similar scenario in every industry from farming to education.
 

steross

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#26
I get the concern about how the hospital administrator model is killing the industry. But to my understanding, doctors are still paid well, very well above average. So to the OP, why should they be given a pass on their loans? And again, do not the people becoming doctors have some idea as to what they can reasonably expect as a salary and factor that into whatever financial encumbrances they voluntarily sign up for? Your final line of "F-em" seems to imply you feel they should have loans erased because of their profession. As I wrote above, yes, doctors are the visible face of saving lives, but good luck doing it without everyone else. I do not see how anyone can draw a line based on occupation.

And I am sure you know, the medical industry is not the only profession that is going through the exact same scenario. Industries all over are being over-managed, bought, sold, consolidated, farmed out, etc. and have changed focus from the product made/lives saved, to how much money can be made.
No, I do not think that doctors should get loan repayment. But, I do not think that the reason that they should not get loan repayment is "Well, doctors still make plenty of money."

As far as doctors being paid well above average, if you are going to do primary care or a lower-paying specialty, it is a better money plan to go to PA school for 4 years and start getting paid than it is to do medical training to make a little more later. And, it is far smarter from a money position to get a health care admin degree/ MBA and make more than the doctors that you "manage" who trained 3 times as long.

Regarding loans in general, with the pretty big issues of homelessness, loss of middle-class jobs that do not require a college education, and the multitude of other problems facing the nation, the educated class owing more money than young people should have ever been loaned is a problem but is not even close to "executive order" level fixing. And, if congress is going to fix the problem, they need to fix the actual loan problem. Then consider a discussion about the right way to help those already affected. But, creating a loan default program while the same type loans keep occurring is insanity.
 

steross

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#27
I get the concern about how the hospital administrator model is killing the industry. But to my understanding, doctors are still paid well, very well above average. So to the OP, why should they be given a pass on their loans? And again, do not the people becoming doctors have some idea as to what they can reasonably expect as a salary and factor that into whatever financial encumbrances they voluntarily sign up for? Your final line of "F-em" seems to imply you feel they should have loans erased because of their profession. As I wrote above, yes, doctors are the visible face of saving lives, but good luck doing it without everyone else. I do not see how anyone can draw a line based on occupation.

And I am sure you know, the medical industry is not the only profession that is going through the exact same scenario. Industries all over are being over-managed, bought, sold, consolidated, farmed out, etc. and have changed focus from the product made/lives saved, to how much money can be made.
Not in our industry we are not:
Physicians, the most highly trained members in the industry’s work force, are on average right in the middle of the compensation pack.

That is because the biggest bucks are currently earned not through the delivery of care, but from overseeing the business of medicine.

The base pay of insurance executives, hospital executives and even hospital administrators often far outstrips doctors’ salaries, according to an analysis performed for The New York Times by Compdata Surveys: $584,000 on average for an insurance chief executive officer, $386,000 for a hospital C.E.O. and $237,000 for a hospital administrator, compared with $306,000 for a surgeon and $185,000 for a general doctor.

And those numbers almost certainly understate the payment gap, since top executives frequently earn the bulk of their income in nonsalary compensation. In a deal that is not unusual in the industry, Mark T. Bertolini, the chief executive of Aetna, earned a salary of about $977,000 in 2012 but a total compensation package of over $36 million, the bulk of it from stocks vested and options he exercised that year. Likewise, Ronald J. Del Mauro, a former president of Barnabas Health, a midsize health system in New Jersey, earned a salary of just $28,000 in 2012, the year he retired, but total compensation of $21.7 million.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/sunday-review/doctors-salaries-are-not-the-big-cost.html


And this:
Adjusted for inflation, average compensation for CEOs at these medical centers increased from $1.6 million in 2005 to $3.1 million in 2015 -- a 93 percent increase. During the same period, compensation rose by 26 percent for orthopaedic surgeons and 15 percent for pediatricians, reflecting the higher and lower ends of doctor salaries, respectively. For registered nurses, wages increased by three percent.

In 2005, hospital CEOs made three times more than orthopaedic surgeons; by 2015, they made five times more. There were even larger increases in the wage gap between CEOs and pediatricians, from 7:1 to 12:1; and CEOs and registered nurses, from 23:1 to 44:1.

https://www.healthcarefinancenews.c...l-executives-and-doctors-widening-study-shows
 

wrenhal

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#28
College cost are too expensive and the ease of students to take out debt on future earnings is a huge reason for that. The philosophical argument I'm making is that we should NEVER have allowed colleges to perpetuate this scam on the students of our great nation. Now we are in a place where we have to think of forgiveness because it became so common place to take out loans to get a degree. Now, I understand that some degrees are worth the cost and a little debt, but they are few and far between. Just a sad system set up to pander to those with debt and enrich the universities all on the backs of the rest of us out of debt tax payers.
Government shouldn't have taken over the loan business.

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Aug 16, 2012
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#29
Government shouldn't have taken over the loan business.

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Ironic that one of the selling points the Obama Admin made was the US would save $61 billion over 10 years. Hope they squirreled that away somewhere. But then again, that is only about 5% of the deficiency so it really would not matter anyway.
 
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#30
Government shouldn't have taken over the loan business.

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What we need are less Epic Charter schools getting public funds. It’s mostly mismanagement from politicized agendas: see Betsy DeVos. Predatory loan salesmen as Governors are why we’re in this boat, not Frank-Dodd.
 

wrenhal

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#31
Government shouldn't have taken over the loan business.

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What we need are less Epic Charter schools getting public funds. It’s mostly mismanagement from politicized agendas: see Betsy DeVos. Predatory loan salesmen as Governors are why we’re in this boat, not Frank-Dodd.
The amount of money spent on these charter schools is peanuts compared to what the government doles out in loans for schools to provide majors that have no aspect to them other than they create their own professors to replenish themselves. Nowhere else other than an academia is there a place for somebody with a feminist women's lesbian study degree. I know for a fact I'm being facetious with that, but it stands there are literally degrees out there that do nothing other than give the person the ability to turn around and teach classes for that same degree to other people. And the government hands out loans like they are candy for that stuff so the colleges keep on creating all these newer degrees that are worthless, just so they can get more and more money from the government loan programs. Add to that the fact that when you pick a career path counselors are now forbidden from telling you "hey you're choosing a degree that is not going to make you a lot of money and has no potential for jobs when you graduate".

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cowboyinexile

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#32
The amount of money spent on these charter schools is peanuts compared to what the government doles out in loans for schools to provide majors that have no aspect to them other than they create their own professors to replenish themselves. Nowhere else other than an academia is there a place for somebody with a feminist women's lesbian study degree. I know for a fact I'm being facetious with that, but it stands there are literally degrees out there that do nothing other than give the person the ability to turn around and teach classes for that same degree to other people. And the government hands out loans like they are candy for that stuff so the colleges keep on creating all these newer degrees that are worthless, just so they can get more and more money from the government loan programs. Add to that the fact that when you pick a career path counselors are now forbidden from telling you "hey you're choosing a degree that is not going to make you a lot of money and has no potential for jobs when you graduate".

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I wish college credit hours would be billed based on the potential income of the degree. My ex wife was a family studies major in college. It was training to teach preschool or running housing for disabled people. The degree trains people to provide a needed service but from a monetary standpoint is peanuts compared to a STEM degree. The tuition was the same though.

So she has a degree that is valuable but moreso from a benefit to society than her checkbook. When we were married I was responsible for her student loans because there was no way she could pay them off. That was fine and now if she can't that's not my problem. But she wasn't that bad in the hole. It was 25K or so. Her best friend had double that. Those aren't insurmountable unless your job prospects pay you 30K per year with no realistic bump in pay.

I don't disagree that schools give degrees that are worthless unless your goal is to get a doctorate and chase academic butterflies but schools also give out degrees that are beneficial to society, but not in a way that gets the degree holder paid.
 

cowboyinexile

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#37
If you take the TARP and QE from that period you could have given every US citizen $10K. Sure could have cut that default rate way down. Oh well....
For what we spend on welfare we could give everyone $1K per month indefinitely. Think about what that would do for the economy
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#38
I wish college credit hours would be billed based on the potential income of the degree. My ex wife was a family studies major in college. It was training to teach preschool or running housing for disabled people. The degree trains people to provide a needed service but from a monetary standpoint is peanuts compared to a STEM degree. The tuition was the same though.

So she has a degree that is valuable but moreso from a benefit to society than her checkbook. When we were married I was responsible for her student loans because there was no way she could pay them off. That was fine and now if she can't that's not my problem. But she wasn't that bad in the hole. It was 25K or so. Her best friend had double that. Those aren't insurmountable unless your job prospects pay you 30K per year with no realistic bump in pay.

I don't disagree that schools give degrees that are worthless unless your goal is to get a doctorate and chase academic butterflies but schools also give out degrees that are beneficial to society, but not in a way that gets the degree holder paid.
Would your basic premise not wipe out many, many degree fields? Seems like a slippery slope if schools stop dropping programs, which is what will happen if their allocation of tuition is decreased because it is deemed non-essential or with poor future income prospects.

Would a big part of the problem not be solved if the loan underwriter had a couple checkboxes on the application that ask what your degree studies are, what your professional aspirations are, and what your financial expectations are, and make a loan accordingly? I know if I buy a car I have to tell the bank what type it is and they look up its KBB value, depreciation expectations, etc. and make a loan accordingly. Might also steer people away from some fields if they realize they are not going to get but a portion of the loan otherwise.

But again, I could see that process still killing many degree fields.
 
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#40
For what we spend on welfare we could give everyone $1K per month indefinitely. Think about what that would do for the economy
Help me out here.... If the money spent on roughly 20% of people that collect welfare is doled out to everyone, that would be a substantial drop in what the people on welfare are receiving. Theoretically an 80% drop. If they cannot get off welfare at the full rate, how are they going to get out if 80% of it is taken away and given to someone else?