State of Big 12 Programs over the next 4 seasons

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Sep 9, 2013
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#82
I know coaches can say all the right things but HCMR was on Golic and Wingo yesterday.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247spo...on-Georgia-Bulldogs-Sugar-Bowl-140267363/Amp/

He sounds committed to Baylor for now.
I think he is committed--to a degree.
Baylor is a power 5 school with good facilities in a talent rich state whose flagship university isnt all that great.

He and Campbell both stay put unless a PSU/Ohio State/NFL job opens, or a team with potential, like FSU, backs a brinks truck up to his house.

FSU spent 17 million to fire Taggert, and then tried to get a good power 5 coach on the cheap.

They wouldnt even pay mark Stoops to leave Ky. Wouldnt pay campbell to jump from a stable situation into a rebuild where the last coach was fired in the middle of his 2nd season.

Coaches like Rhule, Campbell, mark Stoops at ky have stable jobs making millions. None of them are jumping into a frying pan unless they get paid to take the risk.
 

Rack

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#83
100% disagree. The only way to improve is to identify failures and correct them. That's why you see guys like Bill Belichick and Nick Saban upset after wins at times - because they are hyper focused on their imperfections. It's part of why they yield great results.

Sounds like you subscribe to the everyone gets a trophy, celebrate mediocrity philosophies.
Nope far from it... However I do believe that teams need a positive reality based confident mindset. Interestingly Belichick doesn't base his organization on getting the best talent but on making it into the best team and knowing who fits the "culture" of their organization. Saban gets the best talent and also coaches team concepts. Both of those teams over time have been so positive (confident) in their mindset that they rarely lose. This doesn't mean that they don't correct negatives (i.e. negative thinking and performance) but that they know how to totally remove it from their programs by attacking it when it arises. They do this BOTH with their teams and in the press. In my book that is being VERY positive. When OSU has issues, typically the head coach lets an assistant go and hires a new one...or he inserts himself in his area of expertise...or he looks for other reasons and addresses them. Or he attacks those in the press spreading negativity into his program. It's not as if he doesn't address negative issues with the team and the locker room. One of the big things with his teams over this past decade have been positive thinking and confidence. Heck he won't let them act down after bad plays because he understands that emotional negativism breeds more of it, especially in the framework of a game.

So, you see, being positive or negative is a mindset, not an action. You correct the cancer of negative mindset which causes the failures you are speaking of by addressing it and removing it everywhere it arises. That's why guys like Saban and Belichic are so focused on team concept and poor performance (it's to remove the negative, not to dwell on it and let it fester). If great coaches were negative and doubtful their teams would rarely, if ever, win.
 
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Oct 20, 2018
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OKC
#84
Neither Hubbard nor Wallace have even declared yet, so you are making assumptions about those positions without all the facts. Even if they do, I don' think we do worse next year than this one. Every Gundy team that has over achieved has one thing in common...returning starting QB's. We are finally returning one. You also alluded to this and this is why I'm positive. Plus I think winning 9 is very respectable as I think we have a huge opportunity to do this year. Certainly that is positive momentum from 7 wins last year.

As far as recruiting, our best ever team was filled with 3* guys few others wanted...yet we finished #3 in the nation. Texas finishes first in recruiting nearly every year...but they underachieve nearly every year. The system used to measure classes is extremely biased filled with blue blood bias and other bias. Seldom will you see an early OSU commit move up in the rankings but you will often see them move down. Also, if you think maybe "it's poor player development" but we don't have top 30 recruiting classes yet we rank consistently in the top 25 that kind of blows that argument out of the water.
"THe system used to measure classes is extremely biased and filled with blue blood and other bias"? That's spin on the fact Gundy is recruiting poorly as we are ranked 41st behind such "blue bloods" as UNC, South Carolina, G. Tech, Ky, Louisville, Purdue, Colorado, ASU, ISU, NC State, Pitt, and wait for it, freaking KU.
 

Rack

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#85
"THe system used to measure classes is extremely biased and filled with blue blood and other bias"? That's spin on the fact Gundy is recruiting poorly as we are ranked 41st behind such "blue bloods" as UNC, South Carolina, G. Tech, Ky, Louisville, Purdue, Colorado, ASU, ISU, NC State, Pitt, and wait for it, freaking KU.
When does this class sign? Rankings are just that...someone else's opinion...but we tend to almost ALWAYS outperform our recruiting rankings under this coach. How do you account for that with your logic?
 
Oct 20, 2018
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#86
When does this class sign? Rankings are just that...someone else's opinion...but we tend to almost ALWAYS outperform our recruiting rankings under this coach. How do you account for that with your logic?
That's not my 'logic'. You are trying to discount how poorly we've been doing in recruiting vs how it translates. We aren't getting any better, and probably worse in recruiting and it shows on the field. Can't beat ou, lose a key player here or there and don't have the depth to make up for it. Lose games we shouldn't. You are spinning what's a glaring problem that Holder brought up
 

llcoolw

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#87
Nope far from it... However I do believe that teams need a positive reality based confident mindset. Interestingly Belichick doesn't base his organization on getting the best talent but on making it into the best team and knowing who fits the "culture" of their organization. Saban gets the best talent and also coaches team concepts. Both of those teams over time have been so positive (confident) in their mindset that they rarely lose. This doesn't mean that they don't correct negatives (i.e. negative thinking and performance) but that they know how to totally remove it from their programs by attacking it when it arises. They do this BOTH with their teams and in the press. In my book that is being VERY positive. When OSU has issues, typically the head coach lets an assistant go and hires a new one...or he inserts himself in his area of expertise...or he looks for other reasons and addresses them. Or he attacks those in the press spreading negativity into his program. It's not as if he doesn't address negative issues with the team and the locker room. One of the big things with his teams over this past decade have been positive thinking and confidence. Heck he won't let them act down after bad plays because he understands that emotional negativism breeds more of it, especially in the framework of a game.

So, you see, being positive or negative is a mindset, not an action. You correct the cancer of negative mindset which causes the failures you are speaking of by addressing it and removing it everywhere it arises. That's why guys like Saban and Belichic are so focused on team concept and poor performance (it's to remove the negative, not to dwell on it and let it fester). If great coaches were negative and doubtful their teams would rarely, if ever, win.
This is actually true and the concept is called “Thoughts become things”.

“ Thought power is the key to creating your reality. Everything you perceive in the physical world has its origin in the invisible, inner world of your thoughts and beliefs. To become the master of your destiny, you must learn to control the nature of your dominant, habitual thoughts. ”
 

Rack

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#88
That's not my 'logic'. You are trying to discount how poorly we've been doing in recruiting vs how it translates. We aren't getting any better, and probably worse in recruiting and it shows on the field. Can't beat ou, lose a key player here or there and don't have the depth to make up for it. Lose games we shouldn't. You are spinning what's a glaring problem that Holder brought up
You tell me how we are going to recruit in the top 20 every year when the rankings are skewed vs results? Bottom line is RESULTS over the past decade and our RESULTS over a decade are top 15 with below top 30 classes...So either we have the best coaches on the planet or recruiting rankings are badly flawed. Holder isn't god, he's made huge mistakes in things like basketball program decisions, hires and ticket sales. I love the guy, but he's just as human as Gundy and our other coaches and prone to make mistakes.
 

Birry

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#89
Nope far from it... However I do believe that teams need a positive reality based confident mindset. Interestingly Belichick doesn't base his organization on getting the best talent but on making it into the best team and knowing who fits the "culture" of their organization. Saban gets the best talent and also coaches team concepts. Both of those teams over time have been so positive (confident) in their mindset that they rarely lose. This doesn't mean that they don't correct negatives (i.e. negative thinking and performance) but that they know how to totally remove it from their programs by attacking it when it arises. They do this BOTH with their teams and in the press. In my book that is being VERY positive. When OSU has issues, typically the head coach lets an assistant go and hires a new one...or he inserts himself in his area of expertise...or he looks for other reasons and addresses them. Or he attacks those in the press spreading negativity into his program. It's not as if he doesn't address negative issues with the team and the locker room. One of the big things with his teams over this past decade have been positive thinking and confidence. Heck he won't let them act down after bad plays because he understands that emotional negativism breeds more of it, especially in the framework of a game.

So, you see, being positive or negative is a mindset, not an action. You correct the cancer of negative mindset which causes the failures you are speaking of by addressing it and removing it everywhere it arises. That's why guys like Saban and Belichic are so focused on team concept and poor performance (it's to remove the negative, not to dwell on it and let it fester). If great coaches were negative and doubtful their teams would rarely, if ever, win.
You're conflating stuff, again.... I never said that a coach should be negative and doubtful. You made that part up to suit your delusion. What I have said is that improvement requires inspection for deficiencies before corrective action can be taken, and you'll often see perfectionist coaches like Belichick and Saban upset, even after wins, because they are chasing perfection.

Our coach seemingly doesn't do that or care to try. He's content with where we are, he's conservative to a fault, has a defeatist mindset in recruiting, can't manage clock, doesn't take what a defense gives us, won't hire a ST coordinator; all correctable errors that he refuses to change. And it's been that way since at least 2014. Repeated coaching mistakes, season after season Any time I see mistakes being repeated, it means that a person either doesn't care, they don't permit themselves to adapt/progress, or they simply aren't intelligent enough to improve; maybe all three.
 
Sep 9, 2013
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#90
When does this class sign? Rankings are just that...someone else's opinion...but we tend to almost ALWAYS outperform our recruiting rankings under this coach. How do you account for that with your logic?
Wise words, and not just bc I believe the same way.

1. looking at class rankings before the EARLY signing day is futile. There will be guys flipping from schools they're currently committed to, to other schools.

2. there is still the feb signing day.

3. there are now grad transfer and a transfer portal. Look at OU. they've been carried on the backs of qb who transferred to their program. Transfers are HUGE, especially now. I'd go so far as to say they rival the high school talent you recruit bc many transfers can start and perform at a very high level immediately. Recruiting rankings dont account for transfer, and they rarely, if ever, correctly rate JUCOs, who make up a huge part of teams like kstate WVU's roster.

4. in the end, blocking and tackling are taught skills. Very few players come out of high school with good techniques. You also need strength training. WVU's strength coach makes north of 500k a year, more than most of the coaches, bc that is a crucial component of player development.

Program success or failure is based on far more than recruiting rankings. Just ask Texas, who WVU has a winning record against.
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
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#91
1. WVU beat Klieman this year, and has owned Kstate even with DH. there isnt a player on kstate's roster that can say he's beaten wvu. count me NOT worried about Kstate.

2. Neil Brown beat LSU in baton Rouge(breaking their record 65 game home win streak v ooc foes), beat nebraska in Lincoln, and was cheated by acc refs or he would've upset Clemson in Death Valley the year they won a title. He's just as good as Gundy, Rhule and campbell(as you will find out), and he's a better recruiter than any of them.

3. NB was tt off coor when tt upset OU in Norman, I doubt he's scared of OU either, not with the talent he'll amass in morgantown.
1576178536895.png
 

Cro

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#92
That's not my 'logic'. You are trying to discount how poorly we've been doing in recruiting vs how it translates. We aren't getting any better, and probably worse in recruiting and it shows on the field. Can't beat ou, lose a key player here or there and don't have the depth to make up for it. Lose games we shouldn't. You are spinning what's a glaring problem that Holder brought up
I see that you're off the "we need to recruit the same kind of defensive players Bama does!" train....... guess you can't really complain about our D like you used to and Bama really didn't have that great a defense, so.............
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#93
You're conflating stuff, again.... I never said that a coach should be negative and doubtful. You made that part up to suit your delusion. What I have said is that improvement requires inspection for deficiencies before corrective action can be taken, and you'll often see perfectionist coaches like Belichick and Saban upset, even after wins, because they are chasing perfection.

Our coach seemingly doesn't do that or care to try. He's content with where we are, he's conservative to a fault, has a defeatist mindset in recruiting, can't manage clock, doesn't take what a defense gives us, won't hire a ST coordinator; all correctable errors that he refuses to change. And it's been that way since at least 2014. Repeated coaching mistakes, season after season Any time I see mistakes being repeated, it means that a person either doesn't care, they don't permit themselves to adapt/progress, or they simply aren't intelligent enough to improve; maybe all three.
Point of fact...
  1. Since 2014 Oklahoma State football is 52-25 and has finished in the AP top 20 three times with a possibility of four coming this year if we win our bowl (in 100 years prior we finished in the AP top 20 only 10 times and 4 more of those also under HCMG giving coach 7 (over half) of our 13 top 20 finishes in our history) .
  2. Since 2014 Oklahoma State football also has three of our programs 9 total 10 win seasons and we are 4-1 in Bowls since 2014. Additionally regarding 10 win seasons, Gundy has 6 (half after 2014) as head coach and 2 as Qb (in rustolium before a single million was given to the program by T. Boone Pickens). So he's been VERY directly involved in 8 of our 9 total 10 win plus seasons.
SOOOO...Give me some more of Birry's "repeated coaching mistakes" Baby!!

I think we win 9 this year and 10 next...maybe more. Go Pokes!
 
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Birry

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#94
Point of fact...
since 2014, the year Birry says HCMG started sucking, Oklahoma State is 52-25 and has finished in the AP top 20, Three times with a possibility of four coming this year if we win our bowl (in 100 years prior we finished in the AP top 20 only 10 times and 4 of those also under HCMG giving coach 7 (over half) of our 13 top 20 finishes in our history) . Since 2014 Oklahoma State football also has three of our programs 9 total 10 win seasons and are we 4-1 in Bowls.

SOOOO...Give me some more of Birry's "repeated coaching mistakes" Baby!!
In that time, we have never finished ranked in the Top 10 in the country.
We have finished 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 4th in the conference.
We have not truly competed for anything substantial since 2011, maybe 2016 if you count our 2nd place finish in the conference.
Given our facilities, talent, and fan support, I believe we could be competing more like Baylor did this year if Gundy managed gamedays better. He's holding us back from taking the next step. But as long as we have a large % of our fanbase that defines success the way you do, we'll probably never progress beyond this point.
 

Rack

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#95
In that time, we have never finished ranked in the Top 10 in the country.
We have finished 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 4th in the conference.
We have not truly competed for anything substantial since 2011, maybe 2016 if you count our 2nd place finish in the conference.
Given our facilities, talent, and fan support, I believe we could be competing more like Baylor did this year if Gundy managed gamedays better. He's holding us back from taking the next step. But as long as we have a large % of our fanbase that defines success the way you do, we'll probably never progress beyond this point.
We finished in the top 10 a grand total of THREE times in our history....One with Gundy as HC and one in 1984...with him as QB we finished 11th twice...the other top 10 finish was in 1945. In 2016 we finished 11th again.

I'm sorry I just don't agree that THE next step is holding us back from it. I think he's the one striving for it and the only thing holding us back is the ultimate in fan support and the positive momentum that creates. We have to get that positivity back and I think the team is going to help provide that in the bowl and going into next year. IMHO, this bowl is very important to our long term, and short term health as a program. Win and we move forward strongly from this year, lose and it's going to be more of a struggle to maintain and progress from this year.

Regarding my definition of success...I define it by reality and back it up with facts.
 
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Rack

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#96
Just for reference...Bowls since 2014...aka when Gundy started suckin

W 2014 - Beat then unranked, Chris Peterson coached, Washington in the Cactus Bowl
L 2015 - Lost (vacated?) to a professional Ole Miss football team in the Sugar Bowl
W 2016 - Beat #11 Colorado in the Alamo Bowl
W 2017 - Beat #22 Virginia Tech in the Camping World Bowl
W 2018 - Beat #24 SEC SEC Missouri in the Liberty Bowl
? 2019 - ? vs SEC SEC A&M
 
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w0lfe

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Aug 23, 2010
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#99
I'm sorry guys, but if you don't think the recruiting rankings matter, than you need to take a step back... Are there exceptions? Sure there are but look at the traditional perennial powers and how often they have had 4-5 star talent littered all over the field.

Show me the last time one of these teams had a trash recruiting class. Yet they are winning their conferences over and over and competing at the highest level. If these recruiting rankings didn't matter, than we'd see a 2-3 star team competing every season for the playoff.
Bama, Clemson, uo, Ohio State, Georgia, LSU.
 
Oct 12, 2019
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Dustin,ok
Location, location, location——Demographics, tradition, money, willingness to be shady. Our bowl opponent A@M out does up in most areas, yet I believe we can win and I look forward to the game.