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StillwaterTownie

Federal Marshal
Jun 18, 2010
16,903
2,196
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Where else but Stillwater
ya just can't quit badgering me.

I asked you to leave me alone, but you just won't quit trolling.

please stop with your personal attacks. This is the 2nd direct request.

I have no interest in what you think of me. Please stick to the subject matter.

I simply will not tolerate you continuing to badger me and then try to bully me into believing that you're a victim and everything is my fault.

Victim is not a good look for you.
He gave you good advice on how to act. Either take it or ignore his comments.
 

PlatypusJojo

Mysterious as the dark side of the moon
A/V Subscriber
May 29, 2010
9,756
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Boston
I'm not sure where you'd get the idea that North Korea is on the right in any way. To the right of normal conservatives who want less government would be libertarians who want even less government than Republicans so I'm not sure. You seem to be saying go to the right of libertarians and you get a dictatorship?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Hmm maybe politics can't really be boiled down to the simple left vs. right that fits your worldview
 

OrangeFan69

LA Face with an Okla. booty.
A/V Subscriber
Name me one municipality where the US government is responsible for providing water. Hint....there are none.
Name one declared war the US government was responsible since 1942. Hint...there are none.

But we sure seem to be able to fix things in
Korea 1950-53
Lebanon 1958
Vietnam 1964-75
Dominican Republic 1965
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983 Again
Libya 1986
Panama 1989
Kuwait/ Iraq 1991
Somalia 1992
Haiti 1994
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan current - In fairness, we were actually provoked on domestic soil in this one instance
Philippines 2002
Iraq current
Syria current

So yes, I can see your point about where the US government would have no wherewithal to work on getting clean drinking water to people in Flint, Michigan.

Both Obama and Trump have visited Flint and neither have made it a priority.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
Name one declared war the US government was responsible since 1942. Hint...there are none.

But we sure seem to be able to fix things in
Korea 1950-53
Lebanon 1958
Vietnam 1964-75
Dominican Republic 1965
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983 Again
Libya 1986
Panama 1989
Kuwait/ Iraq 1991
Somalia 1992
Haiti 1994
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan current - In fairness, we were actually provoked on domestic soil in this one instance
Philippines 2002
Iraq current
Syria current

So yes, I can see your point about where the US government would have no wherewithal to work on getting clean drinking water to people in Flint, Michigan.

Both Obama and Trump have visited Flint and neither have made it a priority.
The constitution says that the Federal government is responsible for national security and defense... it does not say that they are responsible for drinking water in Flint. That is a local (self-governing) issue.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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Boulder, CO
Name one declared war the US government was responsible since 1942. Hint...there are none.

But we sure seem to be able to fix things in
Korea 1950-53
Lebanon 1958
Vietnam 1964-75
Dominican Republic 1965
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983 Again
Libya 1986
Panama 1989
Kuwait/ Iraq 1991
Somalia 1992
Haiti 1994
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan current - In fairness, we were actually provoked on domestic soil in this one instance
Philippines 2002
Iraq current
Syria current

So yes, I can see your point about where the US government would have no wherewithal to work on getting clean drinking water to people in Flint, Michigan.

Both Obama and Trump have visited Flint and neither have made it a priority.

EPA Awards $100 Million to Michigan for Flint Water Infrastructure Upgrades
EPA has awarded a $100 million grant to MDEQ to fund drinking water infrastructure upgrades in Flint. The funding, provided by the Water Infrastructure Improvements for the Nation (WIIN) Act of 2016, enables Flint to accelerate and expand its work to replace lead service lines and make other critical infrastructure improvements.

EPA Continues to Oversee State and City Action to Protect Public Health
Since January 2016, EPA has been monitoring compliance with its emergency administrative order (as amended) to ensure that Flint’s drinking water system continues to improve. Flint’s system currently meets regulatory criteria for lead and copper. EPA will continue to oversee the City’s efforts to transition to a long-term drinking water source and also monitor its replacement of lead (and galvanized) service lines throughout Flint. Updates from the City of Flint and the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality can be found on their websites:
January 12, 2015 - The DWSD offers to reconnect the city with Lake Huron water, waiving a $4 million fee to restore service. City officials decline,citing concerns water rates could go up more than $12 million each year, even with the reconnection fee waiver.

March 23, 2015 - Flint City Council members vote 7-1 to stop using river water and to reconnect with Detroit. However, state-appointed emergency manager Jerry Ambrose overrules the vote, calling it "incomprehensible," claiming that costs would skyrocket and that "water from Detroit is no safer than water from Flint."

June 5, 2015 - A group of clergymen and activists files a lawsuit against the city, charging that the river water is a health risk. The city attorney later says the lawsuit is baseless. The case is dismissed in September.

January 14, 2016 - Governor Snyder writes President Barack Obama to request the declaration of an expedited major disaster in Flint, estimating it will cost $55 million to install lead-free pipes throughout the city.
January 16, 2016 - The president declines to declare a disaster in Flint. Instead, he authorizes $5 million in aid, declaring a state of emergency in the city. The state of emergency allows the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to step in.
January 21, 2016 - The EPA criticizes the state's slow response to the crisis and expresses concerns about the construction of the new pipeline to Lake Huron. The EPA says it will begin testing the water and publishing the results on a government website.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
8,228
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49
I'm not sure where you'd get the idea that North Korea is on the right in any way. To the right of normal conservatives who want less government would be libertarians who want even less government than Republicans so I'm not sure. You seem to be saying go to the right of libertarians and you get a dictatorship?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Hmm maybe politics can't really be boiled down to the simple left vs. right that fits your worldview
My worldview is that Communists and dictatorships are very hard to finger in regards to right vs left and that it really doesn't matter much because this country has neither a dictator or a communist regime currently. My take is they aren't right or left, just bad, very very bad and shouldn't be done.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 
Aug 16, 2012
1,833
995
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EPA Awards $100 Million to Michigan for Flint Water Infrastructure Upgrades
EPA has awarded a $100 million grant to MDEQ to fund drinking water infrastructure upgrades in Flint. The funding, provided by the Water Infrastructure Improvements for the Nation (WIIN) Act of 2016, enables Flint to accelerate and expand its work to replace lead service lines and make other critical infrastructure improvements.

EPA Continues to Oversee State and City Action to Protect Public Health
Since January 2016, EPA has been monitoring compliance with its emergency administrative order (as amended) to ensure that Flint’s drinking water system continues to improve. Flint’s system currently meets regulatory criteria for lead and copper. EPA will continue to oversee the City’s efforts to transition to a long-term drinking water source and also monitor its replacement of lead (and galvanized) service lines throughout Flint. Updates from the City of Flint and the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality can be found on their websites:
January 12, 2015 - The DWSD offers to reconnect the city with Lake Huron water, waiving a $4 million fee to restore service. City officials decline,citing concerns water rates could go up more than $12 million each year, even with the reconnection fee waiver.

March 23, 2015 - Flint City Council members vote 7-1 to stop using river water and to reconnect with Detroit. However, state-appointed emergency manager Jerry Ambrose overrules the vote,calling it "incomprehensible," claiming that costs would skyrocket and that "water from Detroit is no safer than water from Flint."

June 5, 2015 - A group of clergymen and activists files a lawsuit against the city, charging that the river water is a health risk. The city attorney later says the lawsuit is baseless. The case is dismissed in September.

January 14, 2016 - Governor Snyder writes President Barack Obama to request the declaration of an expedited major disaster in Flint, estimating it will cost $55 million to install lead-free pipes throughout the city.
January 16, 2016 - The president declines to declare a disaster in Flint.Instead, he authorizes $5 million in aid, declaring a state of emergency in the city. The state of emergency allows the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to step in.
January 21, 2016 - The EPA criticizes the state's slow response to the crisis and expresses concerns about the construction of the new pipeline to Lake Huron.The EPA says it will begin testing the water and publishing the results on a government website.
Grant money and oversight to ensure the work that was the responsibility of the city and state is completed. Again, the feds are not responsible for providing water and do not own the water. If the municipality had performed appropriately, the system would not have failed and the feds would never have been involved.
BTW, https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2019/05/08/evidence-corruption-handling-flint-water-crisis/
Dem stronghold being a Dem stronghold
 
Jul 25, 2018
2,170
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Boulder, CO
Grant money and oversight to ensure the work that was the responsibility of the city and state is completed. Again, the feds are not responsible for providing water and do not own the water. If the municipality had performed appropriately, the system would not have failed and the feds would never have been involved.
BTW, https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2019/05/08/evidence-corruption-handling-flint-water-crisis/
Dem stronghold being a Dem stronghold
Agreed.

His post got me interested, though, because I thought I recalled massive mismanagement at the local level in this whole mess. It's worse than I recalled.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
My worldview is that Communists and dictatorships are very hard to finger in regards to right vs left and that it really doesn't matter much because this country has neither a dictator or a communist regime currently. My take is they aren't right or left, just bad, very very bad and shouldn't be done.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Huh? How hard can it be?

Socialist dictators are on the LEFT - by definition. Big Government - central authority = Definition of left.

Oppress the people, tell the people what they need (according to dictator/committee) and take everything that the subjects have. Promise everything and deliver nothing.

Those are the definitions of LEFT.

They crush religion, and all other freedoms. (religion = individualism; communism = collectivism)

Is there something specific that confuses you about communist dictators?

or is there some value system of the left that I'm missing in this post?
 

OrangeFan69

LA Face with an Okla. booty.
A/V Subscriber
The constitution says that the Federal government is responsible for national security and defense... it does not say that they are responsible for drinking water in Flint. That is a local (self-governing) issue.
Thank Goodness our National defense kept us safe from those Filipino and Yugoslavian aggressions.
 

OrangeFan69

LA Face with an Okla. booty.
A/V Subscriber
Grant money and oversight to ensure the work that was the responsibility of the city and state is completed. Again, the feds are not responsible for providing water and do not own the water. If the municipality had performed appropriately, the system would not have failed and the feds would never have been involved.
BTW, https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2019/05/08/evidence-corruption-handling-flint-water-crisis/
Dem stronghold being a Dem stronghold

Republican Governor of Michigan Rick Snyder (political novice - was known more as the CEO of Gateway Computers) signed an emergency declaration to put Flint, Detroit and Benton Harbor under the state's receivership before the change in water source.

The change was for Flint to receive water from Lake Superior from an aqueduct that one of Snyder's biggest donors was building.

Thank you for bringing up the political affiliation.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
8,228
3,826
743
49
My worldview is that Communists and dictatorships are very hard to finger in regards to right vs left and that it really doesn't matter much because this country has neither a dictator or a communist regime currently. My take is they aren't right or left, just bad, very very bad and shouldn't be done.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Huh? How hard can it be?

Socialist dictators are on the LEFT - by definition. Big Government - central authority = Definition of left.

Oppress the people, tell the people what they need (according to dictator/committee) and take everything that the subjects have. Promise everything and deliver nothing.

Those are the definitions of LEFT.

They crush religion, and all other freedoms. (religion = individualism; communism = collectivism)

Is there something specific that confuses you about communist dictators?

or is there some value system of the left that I'm missing in this post?
The previous person tried to say North Korea was right of conservatives. I don't think true Communists or dictators really fall in our scale because they are so out there. Even the leftists in this country aren't there quite yet.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

Donnyboy

Lettin' the high times carry the low....
A/V Subscriber
Oct 31, 2005
23,228
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1,743
So to get this back where this started.... it’s information that is killing us this metric. We know what we did. And there are countless ends justify the means arguments here because all who are on here are currently living well above the worlds average based of said ends. And every country has means and ends issues so we aren’t unlike the world in that yet our ends are better. But every day we learn more and more how the hot dogs are made and some of the ingredients aren’t as appetizing as they were 50 years ago
 

OrangeFan69

LA Face with an Okla. booty.
A/V Subscriber
Huh? How hard can it be?

Socialist dictators are on the LEFT - by definition. Big Government - central authority = Definition of left.

Oppress the people, tell the people what they need (according to dictator/committee) and take everything that the subjects have. Promise everything and deliver nothing.

Those are the definitions of LEFT.

They crush religion, and all other freedoms. (religion = individualism; communism = collectivism)

Is there something specific that confuses you about communist dictators?

or is there some value system of the left that I'm missing in this post?
You truly and honestly think an overwhelmingly liberal country like Norway, Sweden or Iceland like Los Angeles is on par with North Korea?

I HAVE got to hear this response?
 
Mar 11, 2006
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The previous person tried to say North Korea was right of conservatives. I don't think true Communists or dictators really fall in our scale because they are so out there. Even the leftists in this country aren't there quite yet.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I do think you had one big mistake in your post. I understand how you can say dictators may be hard to categorize. But you also said communist. Communists are definitely on the far left scale. That seems an odd miss.
 

ksupoke

We don't need no, thot kuntrol
A/V Subscriber
Feb 16, 2011
12,125
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dark sarcasm in the classroom
Name one declared war the US government was responsible since 1942. Hint...there are none.

But we sure seem to be able to fix things in
Korea 1950-53
Lebanon 1958
Vietnam 1964-75
Dominican Republic 1965
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983 Again
Libya 1986
Panama 1989
Kuwait/ Iraq 1991
Somalia 1992
Haiti 1994
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan current - In fairness, we were actually provoked on domestic soil in this one instance
Philippines 2002
Iraq current
Syria current

So yes, I can see your point about where the US government would have no wherewithal to work on getting clean drinking water to people in Flint, Michigan.

Both Obama and Trump have visited Flint and neither have made it a priority.
You are either willfully ignorant or woefully uninformed, either way that’s a choice you make by staying that way.
Does the US play world police far too often, yes, has our foreign policy resembled that of pre Revolution England, without question, does that make your list valid, not in the slightest.
And to answer the original question, absolutely proud as I can be to be American regardless of who was in office.
 
Last edited:
Aug 16, 2012
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Republican Governor of Michigan Rick Snyder (political novice - was known more as the CEO of Gateway Computers) signed an emergency declaration to put Flint, Detroit and Benton Harbor under the state's receivership before the change in water source.

The change was for Flint to receive water from Lake Superior from an aqueduct that one of Snyder's biggest donors was building.

Thank you for bringing up the political affiliation.
Wrong.

April 2014: city of Flint changed their water source
January 2016: Snyder puts the city water system under state control.

The city was under the thumb of the state since 2011 from a financial standpoint as they were hemorrhaging cash and everything was falling apart.

You just do not get it. FLINT is responsible for providing water to Flint. Not the state, not the feds, not FEMA, not the EPA, not Ozarka. FLINT. The leadership of FLINT has been in democrat hands for no less than 40 years. THEY are the ones who are responsible for providing the water and THEY are the ones who decided to switch water sources and THEY are the ones who let the system go to rot, THEY are the ones who allowed lead pipes to remain despite knowledge since before most of us were even born that they are hazardous.

You can speculate all you want about influence peddling in regard to the aqueducts (not actually aqueducts, but a tunnel system), but the discussion to draw directly from Huron (not Superior) instead of going through the Detroit water system was held years before Snyder was elected and the project was spearheaded by a new municipal water authority (KWA) with bids solicited for every step of the way. Regardless, that does not even matter. The construction contract was let in 2013 and not completed until 2017. In the interim, Flint decided to cancel its contract with Detroit Water and use Flint River water until the KWA system was up and running. It is THAT decision that led to the contamination. The decision to switch from Detroit Water was made because Genesee County used 10% of the water from the Detroit system but paid over 20% of the operational costs for the entire Detroit Water system. In a nutshell, it was too damn expensive and by their projections, switching to their own system would save $5 million a year as soon as two years after completion.

The fact of the matter remains, FLINT made the decision to switch and as noted, FLINT is the government that still has not replaced all of the piping while cronies get fat on city contracts. 3500 plumbing pipe systems were known, 2500 have yet to be replaced.