Official Game Thread: Oklahoma State vs. Iowa State

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Sep 16, 2004
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RPO quarterbacks make one read on most of their plays.

I showed very thoroughly how Brewer did it to us last week based on how we were rolling our safeties, then not rolling our safeties.

Most read option quarterbacks are making 1 read, give or pull.

I detailed that very thoroughly about how Baylor beat us in their GT to the boundary last week.
I can vouch that it was very thorough.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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You would be incorrect then

Do not trust Robert Allen to know who the primary target is or do or say anything but defend Gundy.

Well....
You can if you want, but you won't be getting good info

Robert Allen also was also telling them that theh were going to throw the ball on the play Chuba went cross country
So you are saying that Robert Allen, who is on the field and hears something and repeats it on the broadcast, was lying?
After watching some highlights, I believe it was NOT the interception as that was a throw across his body issue. But the comment still stands. You are saying the RA is lying about the comments by Gundy.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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So you are saying that Robert Allen, who is on the field and hears something and repeats it on the broadcast, was lying?
After watching some highlights, I believe it was NOT the interception as that was a throw across his body issue. But the comment still stands. You are saying the RA is lying about the comments by Gundy.
I'm saying he doesn't have any clue who the primary target on the play was and who Sanders was instructed to throw the ball to

For instance...
The interception you spoke of was out of trips.

The #3 was Logan Carter and it was a sprint pass speed cut and Carter was the target.

Sanders bypassed him because he would have been 9 yards short of the 1st down whem he caught the ball.

So....
Sanders came off him and tried to make a play that would have given us a 1st down

That's why Gundy was upset with Sanders because he went off script.

Sanders went off script because he didn't us to have to punt.

I'm sure Sanders was very frustrated with that whole setup and Gundy was frustrated that he went off script.
 
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Oct 30, 2007
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He has happy feet because he has been instructed to only read 1 side of the field.

He's not allowed to progress to the other side of the field.

Many times, on certain plays he's not allowed to come off the 1 receiver he's been told to throw it to
This defies logic. Why would the coaching staff handcuff their quarterback like that?
 
Nov 14, 2010
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This defies logic. Why would the coaching staff handcuff their quarterback like that?
Because they're running the wrong style of offemse for him and they think it's the best way to keep him from making mistakes.

But, like the interception today, it's actually had the opposite effect on Sanders because he is an agressive and competitive dude.

To make a long story short

Read option/RPO/Air Raid quarterbacks are taught 1 read and 3 prongs per play.

Read option
Read last man on line
Read option is give or keep based off that read

Air Raid
Read overhang player and throw it to route A or route B based off that read

RPO, which has combined both comcepts
Read overhang and give or throw based on that read.

Those are the 1st 2 prongs on the play.

3rd prong is when they roll a safey the Qb keeps and runs back away from the read to hit the alley the rolled safety just left.

Sanders can run any of the 3

That's also why NFL guys throughout the years have always labeled these type qb's as system qb's because NFL teams used to not run those concepts
 
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Nov 14, 2010
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This defies logic. Why would the coaching staff handcuff their quarterback like that?
I just gave a very specific example of this very thing on the interception

By in large, like on that play, he has made mistakes because he is frustrated by being handcuffed and tries to go outside the box.

I love the fact that, exactly like Rudolph, we have a kid that hates running plays that they know are goimg to cause us to punt.
 
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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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So you are saying that Robert Allen, who is on the field and hears something and repeats it on the broadcast, was lying?
After watching some highlights, I believe it was NOT the interception as that was a throw across his body issue. But the comment still stands. You are saying the RA is lying about the comments by Gundy.
I'm saying he doesn't have any clue who the primary target on the play was and who Sanders was instructed to throw the ball to

For instance...
The interception you spoke of was out of trips.

The #3 was Logan Carter and it was a sprint pass speed cut and Carter was the target.

Sanders bypassed him because he would have been 9 yards short of the 1st down whem he caught the ball.

So....
Sanders came off him and tried to make a play that would have given us a 1st down

That's why Gundy was upset with Sanders because he went off script.

Sanders went off script because he didn't us to have to punt.

I'm sure Sanders was very frustrated with that whole setup and Gundy was frustrated that he went off script.
Nope, as I said, I don't believe it was the interception play. He was being told by Gundy that he didn't bother looking for other players (Woods on this case). That says to me that he locked on his initial target and ignored woods open downfield.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 
Oct 30, 2007
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Because they're running the wrong style of offense for him and they think it's the best way to keep him from making mistakes.
I understand trying to minimize mistakes with an inexperienced quarterback, but I hope they aren't handcuffing him that bad. You have to turn a guy loose and let him play. It doesn't make any sense to make him lock into a primary receiver and not let him progress through his reads.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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I understand trying to minimize mistakes with an inexperienced quarterback, but I hope they aren't handcuffing him that bad. You have to turn a guy loose and let him play. It doesn't make any sense to make him lock into a primary receiver and not let him progress through his reads.
I totally agree

Gundy also doesn't trust our Oline to block for 2.7 seconds or so to give him time to to progress through the field.

And...
As we've seen, Sanders can get loose with the ball in the pocket just like Mason used to.

So... it's double edged
1) to keep him from throwing the ball to the wrong guy
2) to keep him from fumbling in the pocket

It's like when you have young guards in basketball and your motion offense is stale because they're not running it right.

So....
The coach calls a whole bunch of set plays so the coach can guarantee that the guy the coach wants to shoot it is guaramteed to end up with the ball.1

I understand the logic behind what they're trying to do with him, it's just the exact wrong thing to do to him
 
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Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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I understand trying to minimize mistakes with an inexperienced quarterback, but I hope they aren't handcuffing him that bad. You have to turn a guy loose and let him play. It doesn't make any sense to make him lock into a primary receiver and not let him progress through his reads.
You don't turn him loose if he is the reason you are losing games...you handcuff him until he starts making better decisions or you bench him. One or the other. Not saying we are even doing this, but that is exactly what a coach who wants to win would do.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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I totally agree

Gundy also doesn't trust our Oline to block for 2.7 seconds or so to give him time to to progress through the field.

And...
As we've seen, Sanders can get loose with the ball in the pocket just like Mason used to.

So... it's double edged
1) to keep him from throwing the ball to the wrong guy
2) to keep him from fumbling in the pocket

It's like when you have young guards in basketball and your motion offense is stale because they're not running it right.

So....
The coach calls a whole bunch of set plays so the coach can guarantee that the guy the coach wants to shoot it is guaramteed to end up with the ball.1

I understand the logic behind what they're trying to do with him, it's just the exact wrong thing to do to him
Except that we won today and he only had one turnover...so why should we believe that it is the wrong thing to do with him, if that is even what they are doing, when he preformed much better today than he has since K-State?
 
Nov 14, 2010
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You don't turn him loose if he is the reason you are losing games...you handcuff him until he starts making better decisions or you bench him. One or the other. Not saying we are even doing this, but that is exactly what a coach who wants to win would do.
Exact opposite for a kid like Sanders

You have to analyze what the issues are that are causing the mistakes.

If the issue is that you are handcuffing your quarterback to the point to where he's not being allowed to do what he's good at, then that needs to be changed.

Sanders mistake today was made because he felt pinned into a play that was going to make us have to punt.

So...Run a play with better options to get a first down, train Sanders on who to read, and you'll get a better result.

You don't have to believe anything, but if you want some evidence of how our fanbase felt like he played today, go back read the game thread.

If a coach is making a kid choke up and cut his swing down so much that all he can hit is a ground ball to 2nd base, then is putting a take 2 on where the kid doesn't even get to swing until there is 2 strikes, the kid more than likely isn't going to hit very well or be productive at all.

A kid like Sanders is going to say "screw that" on occasion and let it rip.

Because he's not trained to let it rip he is more than likely goimg to strike out more because of it

So...that process actually ends up causing more strike outs

College coaches are notorious for over coaching kids and paralyzing their progress because of it.

Over coaching many, many times leads to mistakes.

Not just because if the schematics of it; but also because the athlete knows you don't trust them and they lose confidence because of it.

Gundy is going to have to understand that's what he's doing to Sanders
 
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Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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Exact opposite for a kid like Sanders

You have to analyze what the issues are that are causing the mistakes.

If the issue is that you are handcuffing your quarterback to the point to where he's not being allowed to do what he's good at, then that needs to be changed.

Sanders mistake today was made because he felt pinned in to a play that was going to make us have to punt.

So...Run a play with better options to get a first down, train Sanders on who to read, and you'll get a better result.

The pass to Woods is a perfect example of that.

You don't have to believe anything, but if you want some evidence of how our fanbase felt like he played today, go back read the game thread.
His numbers were ok precisely because he was limited to short safe passes...exactly what he needed after having 9 turnovers in two weeks. He was decent today compared to the last two games where he gave the games away. He has to continue to be controlled, for now, in order to make sure he doesn't get us beat. We have a very good team with an average QB right now, we have to take the game and put it in our playmakers hands until he completely develops. That will actually help him gain confidence long term.
 

NotOnTV

BRB -- Taking an okie leak
Sep 14, 2010
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God, you're so annoying with your holier-than-thou attitude after you helicopter in late in the game and start admonishing everyone that is upset at the entire way we've played this game. You don't even have a clue as to how the game is played.
You're what give Christians a bad name -- playing so much better than everyone.
Don't you have some sinners to go give your crap to?!

Don't you have a Sunday School class to prepare for? Remember, you have to bring cupcakes.
Ohhhh daaaaang....
 
Nov 14, 2010
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His numbers were ok precisely because he was limited to short safe passes...exactly what he needed after having 9 turnovers in two weeks. He was decent today compared to the last two games where he gave the games away. He has to continue to be controlled, for now, in order to make sure he doesn't get us beat. We have a very good team with an average QB right now, we have to take the game and put it in our playmakers hands until he completely develops. That will actually help him gain confidence long term.
Nothing about what we are doing with him schematically is going to give him comfidence

He can complete bubbles, hitches and quicks in his sleep.

Limiting a kids ability to make a positive impact doesn't develop confidence.

As I said, in the case of Sanders today, it actually caused his 1 int

He's a winner though and will continue to figure out a way to rise above it like he did today though
 
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Oct 25, 2009
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Nothing about what we are doing with him schematically is going to give him comfidence

He can complete bubbles, hitches and quicks in his sleep.

Limiting a kids ability to make a positive impact doesn't develop confidence.

As I said, in the case of Sanders today, it actually caused his 1 int

He's a winner though and will continue to figure out a way to rise above it like he did today though
Keep trying there tiger. When a kid is turning the ball over at the rate he is, that aint on the coach.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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Keep trying there tiger. When a kid is turning the ball over at the rate he is, that aint on the coach.
No....
There's no try to it

I've given great detail and with real examples with real breakdowns of plays that happemed in OSU games about why things happen

Ive also given specific examples of the exact type of plays he should running.

You dont think he'd be better if we were running read option/RPO/Air Raid offense which he's ran his entire life?

You don't think he'd be better if we were running concepts that he's better at and more familiar with?

Of course he would!
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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No....
There's no try to it

I've given great detail and with real examples with real breakdowns of plays that happemed in OSU games about why things happen

Ive also given specific examples of the exact type of plays he should running.

You dont think he'd be better if we were running read option/RPO/Air Raid offense which he's ran his entire life?

You don't think he'd be better if we were running concepts that he's better at and more familiar with?

Of course he would!
That's all fine and dandy coach ;-), but his problems come most of the time when hes trying to improvise (i.e. hero ball) and plays break down...that's on him, not coaching and they are doing exactly the right thing to limit him until that stops. Once the game slows down he will be better. I also noticed they put in a few option plays yesterday that helped in as well. So, if anything, coaching has improved his issues over the past few weeks except for the 4th quarter vs Baylor where he panicked and tried to do things on his own.
 
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Nov 14, 2010
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That's all fine and dandy coach ;-), but his problems come most of the time when hes trying to improvise (i.e. hero ball) and plays break down...that's on him, not coaching and they are doing exactly the right thing to limit him until that stops. Once the game slows down he will be better. I also noticed they put in a few option plays yesterday that helped in as well. So, if anything, coaching has improved his issues over the past few weeks except for the 4th quarter vs Baylor where he panicked and tried to do things on his own.
Yeah....
I've covered that and have shown how that is a coaching issue.

But, I guess I can say it again, that those situatuions are squarely the coaches fault when they only allow him to work with one side of the field, make one read or only throw to one in particular receiver, and nothings available and he's not allowed to go through progressions to the other side of the field or to other receivers.

At that point, he's left with no options other than to give up and he's not going to give into that mentality the same way Mason refused to.

And, like Mason, I'm really glad we have a kid that is too competitive for that kind of coaching.

But....
You responded to the last post without answering the questions posed in it.

Which were....
You dont think he'd be better if we were running read option/RPO/Air Raid offense which he's ran his entire life?

You don't think he'd be better if we were running concepts that he's better at and more familiar with?

Well... I take that back.... You did answer those questions in your response.

In your own post, you just mentioned how we put in optiion plays and how it helped him.

So... you mention how ADDING option helped him. I'm glad you're starting to understand the point being made.

Which is...
Instead of subtracting scheme and limiting his options, he needs his coaches to ADD scheme he's good at.

He's either going to force Gundy to grow a pair, run the right offense or transfer.
 
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