Official Game Thread: Oklahoma State vs. Baylor

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RxCowboy

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Nick Saban is the best coach of his era. Les Miles was 3-7 against him including 2 overtime losses. How many other coaches have 3 wins against Saban since he's been at Alabama?
So, is it possible that he might not gone .500 given a longer sample against Stoops? Yes, it's possible, especially given 52-9.
 

RxCowboy

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Nice deflection. The gift allowed us to build competitive facilities that were massively important to our success for Gundy's career.
Deflection from what, fantasy? It's fact. Facts don't care about your feelings. We have the #40 revenue/budget in the country. We're not close to the top 20, much less the top 10. The 1st tier programs like Alabama and Ohio State, the ones that are constantly in the discussion for the CFP, have 100k+ stadiums and sell them out year after year. Our stadium is beautiful and is definitely an upgrade from what we had. It puts us solidly in the second tier as far as stadiums are concerned. I've had faculty season tickets at UGA with 98k other people. It's sold out game after game. If we want to compete with the big boys, how are we going to get there?

Boone's donation and upgrade in facilities got us out of the cellar, but it's still a long way to the top. We simply aren't there. The "Gundy was given hundreds of millions. He was given everything he needs to compete with Ohio State and Alabama and Oklahoma" is pure fantasy. We would need a room full of Boones.

If you don't believe me about revenue/budget, here's the data, look at it for yourself: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
 

RxCowboy

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https://www.pionline.com/article/20...ens-raider-turned-wildcatter-shuts-hedge-fund

T. Boone Pickens, raider-turned-wildcatter, shuts hedge fund

BY BLOOMBERG · JANUARY 12, 2018 12:46 PM · UPDATED 12:48 PM

Mr. Pickens was managing more than $4 billion at the start of 2008 before one of his funds was almost completely wiped out and a second plunged 64%. Undaunted, he sought out new investors the next year for new hedge funds that invested in stocks and futures. As of the end of 2016, BP Capital Fund Advisors had about $335.1 million under management.​
Note the date of the article above. Much of the $250 million donation was invested in the hedge fund that was wiped out in 2008. The "Gundy was handed hundreds of millions" is pure fantasy, the "Boone is writing checks for whatever we need or want" is pure fantasy. Boone is not worth the amount of money he was at the time he made the donation. We are unlikely to see any more.
 

RxCowboy

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Here is a blog post that quotes an AP article that outlines the losses in the hedge fund. Again, the "Gundy was handed hundreds of millions" is fantasy that is contradicted by facts. Note the date.

Pickens’ huge donation for Oklahoma State athletics may be wiped out
BY
PAUL BURKA
DATE
OCT 23, 2008

HTTPS://WWW.TEXASMONTHLY.COM/BURKA-...OR-OKLAHOMA-STATE-ATHLETICS-MAY-BE-WIPED-OUT/

This is an amazing story. In short: Boone gave $165 million to Oklahoma State, his alma mater, for an upgrade of its athletic facilities. The gift came with strings attached, that Boone would stipulate how it was to be managed. OSU regents wanted to put the money in the bank; Boone insisted that it be left in his hedge fund, to be used as collateral for OSU to borrow against. But Boone bet wrong on oil, shorting it as the price rose and going long as it fell. Now the hedge fund is floundering and OSU is on the hook for the principal and interest of the loan. The sports web sites are all over this story, but here is an MSM version from the AP.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma State University officials cheered when oil tycoon T. Boone Pickens gave a record-setting gift of $165 million to his alma mater two years ago for athletic programs and then invested it in his BP Capital hedge fund so that it would grow even more. But now the fund has dropped so low amid the national economic downturn that university officials won’t say how much is left and the fancy athletic village it was supposed to pay for has been put on hold. Pickens himself has lost “well in excess of $1 billion” as oil and natural gas prices have plummeted, said Jay Rosser, Pickens’ spokesman. In 2007, Oklahoma State athletic director Mike Holder trumpeted growth in the school’s athletic facilities construction fund. Pickens’ generous contribution, together with other donations and market appreciation, had allowed the fund to mushroom to $288 million. OSU spokesman Gary Shutt on Wednesday declined to say how much is left. “Construction on facilities in the athletic village area will begin when the economic climate improves,” Shutt said. “Like all investors in these uncertain times, we are exploring all options as we consider our future plans.” Shutt said he couldn’t specify what those options are. Pickens, whose fortune was pegged by Forbes magazine at $3 billion in 2007, had hoped investing his money and contributions from others into BP Capital would provide enough money to cover the costs of the athletic village. The project is expected to include a new indoor practice facility, stadiums for baseball and softball and venues for baseball, tennis, soccer, equestrian, and track and field. Work on the west end zone project of the football stadium, named Boone Pickens Stadium after its benefactor, continues and remains on target for completion in 2009. Rosser said the company is no different than “any other industry, business or household in America. “We’ve been hit hard by the economic downturn.” Rosser said the company is in contact with the school and they’re “working together” on the funding issue, but he referred questions about the fund’s value to Oklahoma State officials. Oil prices fell below $67 a barrel on Wednesday, 55 percent from its peak of $147.27 in mid-July. The sports web sites are much more entertaining: You probably heard a few years ago that T. Boone Pickens, who chairs the hedge fund BP Capital Management, gave Oklahoma State a $165 million donation to be used all for helping the school’s athletic program. And the largest portion of it was going to be used to beef up the school’s football stadium and football facilities. Well, there was one problem with Boone’s donation. He left the donation in the hedge fund, which initially seemed to be a good idea as oil prices soared in a post Katrina economic climate, swelling the initial gift to over $300 million. That was before things began to turn in 2007, as international demand for oil failed to meet projections, causing the fund to come to a sudden standstill, and then dropping on mistakes made by fund managers, who were managed by Pickens. Anyway, Pickens resisted pleas by some OSU Regents to bank a good deal of the balance out of the fund when it exceeded $300 million, which was only 14 months ago. Instead Pickens decided on borrowing almost $200 million needed to expand and renovate Boone Pickens Stadium on the Stillwater campus, despite the fact that the donation was dropping in value. Now, here’s the bad news. Yesterday all indications were that OSU Regents had been told last Friday afternoon that a large portion of the Pickens donation in the BP Capital hedge fund was virtually wiped out by margin calls on the funds investments in the third quarter. Well, that’s not actually the case. It seems that ALL of the money is gone (emphasis added) (the link provided is for a members site, but you can read the full article here). Officials were told that actually, the entire $ 165 million donation, and the earnings, which once inflated the gift to over $300 million, had recently been eliminated by margin calls due to drastically falling oil prices. As of Monday OSU’s gift had flat-lined completely and was declared ‘gone.’ And just so you know, the school has already made a lot of those improvements to the football field . That’s because the school borrowed almost all funds used in the stadium expansion plans using the $300 million balance in BP Capital as collateral. Yikes. So, um, Oklahoma State is now in debt of close to $300 million dollars. I have no idea how in God’s name they’re going to get out of this. State schools don’t exactly have an extra $300 million sitting around. Has a college ever actually declared bankruptcy? I’m not sure, but we’re probably about to find out.
 

Birry

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Deflection from what, fantasy? It's fact. Facts don't care about your feelings. We have the #40 revenue/budget in the country. We're not close to the top 20, much less the top 10. The 1st tier programs like Alabama and Ohio State, the ones that are constantly in the discussion for the CFP, have 100k+ stadiums and sell them out year after year. Our stadium is beautiful and is definitely an upgrade from what we had. It puts us solidly in the second tier as far as stadiums are concerned. I've had faculty season tickets at UGA with 98k other people. It's sold out game after game. If we want to compete with the big boys, how are we going to get there?

Boone's donation and upgrade in facilities got us out of the cellar, but it's still a long way to the top. We simply aren't there. The "Gundy was given hundreds of millions. He was given everything he needs to compete with Ohio State and Alabama and Oklahoma" is pure fantasy. We would need a room full of Boones.

If you don't believe me about revenue/budget, here's the data, look at it for yourself: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
My comments were in the context of comparing Les Miles extrapolated performance at OSU vs Gundy's actual performance at OSU. Very hypothetical, but that's what we were discussing when I made that comment. Miles was doing nearly the same thing as Gundy in a similar timeline, but with FAR fewer resources. He also brought in guys with questionable character and had zero loyalty to OSU, so there's the flipside.

I understand your point, and don't expect us to be on those levels year in and year out. But that wasn't what I was suggesting.
 

RxCowboy

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My comments were in the context of comparing Les Miles extrapolated performance at OSU vs Gundy's actual performance at OSU. Very hypothetical, but that's what we were discussing when I made that comment. Miles was doing nearly the same thing as Gundy in a similar timeline, but with FAR fewer resources. He also brought in guys with questionable character and had zero loyalty to OSU, so there's the flipside.

I understand your point, and don't expect us to be on those levels year in and year out. But that wasn't what I was suggesting.
Your comment was in response to my rebuttal of "Gundy was handed hundreds of millions of dollars." You called it a deflection. It wasn't. That money is gone gone gone.
 

Birry

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It was right there in my post you quoted.
Your post is vague. But I'll clarify it for you, since your mind reading and your writing skills apparently haven't synched up.

From your post, I gather that you believe that I (and others) want something to change. [Correct]
From previous posts, and knowing your idiocy/ignorance/blatant disregard for fact/filtering out what people actually say, I gather that you believe that I (and others) want Gundy to be fired. [Incorrect]

You see, by saying that we want changes, we don't all mean firing the head coach. Is it possible for you to process that? Why or why not?

I'll say it again in case you've missed it in about 50 previous posts that I've stated directly. I don't think we should fire Mike Gundy (right now). Go back and re-read that if you need to.

Once you've let that sink in, I want you to think about other things that football teams can change besides firing their head coach. There are some really good books and stuff out there if you have trouble thinking of other things that can impact a football team that we could change. But I'll let you try to figure that out, because the list is really long, and I don't feel like typing it all out.
 
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Birry

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Your comment was in response to my rebuttal of "Gundy was handed hundreds of millions of dollars." You called it a deflection. It wasn't. That money is gone gone gone.
Yeah, because your response was a deflection. The (obvious) point was that the gift allowed us to raise our level of facilities FAR above what Miles had to work with. Your argument is a strawman.
 

RxCowboy

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Yeah, because your response was a deflection. The (obvious) point was that the gift allowed us to raise our level of facilities FAR above what Miles had to work with. Your argument is a strawman.
"Gundy was handed hundreds of millions" is the strawman. It doesn't exist. It is categorically untrue.
 
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So, is it possible that he might not gone .500 given a longer sample against Stoops? Yes, it's possible, especially given 52-9.
Les Miles showed a unique propensity for getting our program hyped up and ready to play in the Bedlam game. You can make an argument that his wins over OU were the best thing he accomplished here. I doubt he would've been able to go .500 or better long term, but he probably would've had more wins than Coach Gundy has had.

Hypothetically, our program would've probably won a lot of games under Miles as the facilities improved. But it would've fallen off in the latter years due to Miles' inability to evolve offensively. Like I said before, I wouldn't trade Gundy for Miles. But I'll always wonder what Miles would've been able to accomplish having these facilities to recruit to.
 

RxCowboy

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Les Miles showed a unique propensity for getting our program hyped up and ready to play in the Bedlam game. You can make an argument that his wins over OU were the best thing he accomplished here. I doubt he would've been able to go .500 or better long term, but he probably would've had more wins than Coach Gundy has had.

Hypothetically, our program would've probably won a lot of games under Miles as the facilities improved. But it would've fallen off in the latter years due to Miles' inability to evolve offensively. Like I said before, I wouldn't trade Gundy for Miles. But I'll always wonder what Miles would've been able to accomplish having these facilities to recruit to.
Maybe. But his best finish in the division was what? Gundy tied for a division championship and won a conference championship outright. Maybe Miles could have done that, maybe not. I doubt he could have done it, though, with his 3-yards and a could of field-play pellets offense.
 

Rob B.

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Your post is vague. But I'll clarify it for you, since your mind reading and your writing skills apparently haven't synched up.

From your post, I gather that you believe that I (and others) want something to change. [Correct]
From previous posts, and knowing your idiocy/ignorance/blatant disregard for fact/filtering out what people actually say, I gather that you believe that I (and others) want Gundy to be fired. [Incorrect]

You see, by saying that we want changes, we don't all mean firing the head coach. Is it possible for you to process that? Why or why not?

I'll say it again in case you've missed it in about 50 previous posts that I've stated directly. I don't think we should fire Mike Gundy (right now). Go back and re-read that if you need to.

Once you've let that sink in, I want you to think about other things that football teams can change besides firing their head coach. There are some really good books and stuff out there if you have trouble thinking of other things that can impact a football team that we could change. But I'll let you try to figure that out, because the list is really long, and I don't feel like typing it all out.
Cool story bruh. You and the other rangers have repeatedly called for Gundy's head. If not in actual words, in your pack mentality with your thumbs-up and zzz's circle jerk. Then you act indignant when you get called out on it. Grow up and coach on. LMAO
 

Birry

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Cool story bruh. You and the other rangers have repeatedly called for Gundy's head. If not in actual words, in your pack mentality with your thumbs-up and zzz's circle jerk. Then you act indignant when you get called out on it. Grow up and coach on. LMAO
Which part of "I don't think we should fire Mike Gundy (right now)" do you not understand?

Let's see where this goes.
Cool story bruh. You and the other rangers have repeatedly called for Gundy's head.
Who are these "other rangers", and where have I specifically called for Gundy's head and/or agreed with someone who is calling for Gundy's head? Please be specific.

If not in actual words, in your pack mentality with your thumbs-up and zzz's circle jerk. Then you act indignant when you get called out on it.
Where to begin?
You have no "actual words" to prove your point, so you attack groupthink in general as an indictment against your made-up point and somehow attribute that to me, personally. Could you be more asinine?

Also, it appears that you think a group of people that agree with each other on a message board is a "pack mentality" and a "circle jerk". Noted. And the irony is mesmerizing.
 
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Birry

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"Gundy was handed hundreds of millions" is the strawman. It doesn't exist. It is categorically untrue.
And you're deliberately deflecting from what the obvious point was. Unless you think that the person's original point was literal, and they're claiming that that Boone Pickens himself walked up to Mike Gundy and handed him hundreds of millions of physical dollars, and THAT is the main reason why he's had so much success. Because everyone but you seems to know what that person meant.
 
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Here is a blog post that quotes an AP article that outlines the losses in the hedge fund. Again, the "Gundy was handed hundreds of millions" is fantasy that is contradicted by facts. Note the date.

Pickens’ huge donation for Oklahoma State athletics may be wiped out
BY
PAUL BURKA
DATE
OCT 23, 2008

HTTPS://WWW.TEXASMONTHLY.COM/BURKA-...OR-OKLAHOMA-STATE-ATHLETICS-MAY-BE-WIPED-OUT/

This is an amazing story. In short: Boone gave $165 million to Oklahoma State, his alma mater, for an upgrade of its athletic facilities. The gift came with strings attached, that Boone would stipulate how it was to be managed. OSU regents wanted to put the money in the bank; Boone insisted that it be left in his hedge fund, to be used as collateral for OSU to borrow against. But Boone bet wrong on oil, shorting it as the price rose and going long as it fell. Now the hedge fund is floundering and OSU is on the hook for the principal and interest of the loan. The sports web sites are all over this story, but here is an MSM version from the AP.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma State University officials cheered when oil tycoon T. Boone Pickens gave a record-setting gift of $165 million to his alma mater two years ago for athletic programs and then invested it in his BP Capital hedge fund so that it would grow even more. But now the fund has dropped so low amid the national economic downturn that university officials won’t say how much is left and the fancy athletic village it was supposed to pay for has been put on hold. Pickens himself has lost “well in excess of $1 billion” as oil and natural gas prices have plummeted, said Jay Rosser, Pickens’ spokesman. In 2007, Oklahoma State athletic director Mike Holder trumpeted growth in the school’s athletic facilities construction fund. Pickens’ generous contribution, together with other donations and market appreciation, had allowed the fund to mushroom to $288 million. OSU spokesman Gary Shutt on Wednesday declined to say how much is left. “Construction on facilities in the athletic village area will begin when the economic climate improves,” Shutt said. “Like all investors in these uncertain times, we are exploring all options as we consider our future plans.” Shutt said he couldn’t specify what those options are. Pickens, whose fortune was pegged by Forbes magazine at $3 billion in 2007, had hoped investing his money and contributions from others into BP Capital would provide enough money to cover the costs of the athletic village. The project is expected to include a new indoor practice facility, stadiums for baseball and softball and venues for baseball, tennis, soccer, equestrian, and track and field. Work on the west end zone project of the football stadium, named Boone Pickens Stadium after its benefactor, continues and remains on target for completion in 2009. Rosser said the company is no different than “any other industry, business or household in America. “We’ve been hit hard by the economic downturn.” Rosser said the company is in contact with the school and they’re “working together” on the funding issue, but he referred questions about the fund’s value to Oklahoma State officials. Oil prices fell below $67 a barrel on Wednesday, 55 percent from its peak of $147.27 in mid-July. The sports web sites are much more entertaining: You probably heard a few years ago that T. Boone Pickens, who chairs the hedge fund BP Capital Management, gave Oklahoma State a $165 million donation to be used all for helping the school’s athletic program. And the largest portion of it was going to be used to beef up the school’s football stadium and football facilities. Well, there was one problem with Boone’s donation. He left the donation in the hedge fund, which initially seemed to be a good idea as oil prices soared in a post Katrina economic climate, swelling the initial gift to over $300 million. That was before things began to turn in 2007, as international demand for oil failed to meet projections, causing the fund to come to a sudden standstill, and then dropping on mistakes made by fund managers, who were managed by Pickens. Anyway, Pickens resisted pleas by some OSU Regents to bank a good deal of the balance out of the fund when it exceeded $300 million, which was only 14 months ago. Instead Pickens decided on borrowing almost $200 million needed to expand and renovate Boone Pickens Stadium on the Stillwater campus, despite the fact that the donation was dropping in value. Now, here’s the bad news. Yesterday all indications were that OSU Regents had been told last Friday afternoon that a large portion of the Pickens donation in the BP Capital hedge fund was virtually wiped out by margin calls on the funds investments in the third quarter. Well, that’s not actually the case. It seems that ALL of the money is gone (emphasis added) (the link provided is for a members site, but you can read the full article here). Officials were told that actually, the entire $ 165 million donation, and the earnings, which once inflated the gift to over $300 million, had recently been eliminated by margin calls due to drastically falling oil prices. As of Monday OSU’s gift had flat-lined completely and was declared ‘gone.’ And just so you know, the school has already made a lot of those improvements to the football field . That’s because the school borrowed almost all funds used in the stadium expansion plans using the $300 million balance in BP Capital as collateral. Yikes. So, um, Oklahoma State is now in debt of close to $300 million dollars. I have no idea how in God’s name they’re going to get out of this. State schools don’t exactly have an extra $300 million sitting around. Has a college ever actually declared bankruptcy? I’m not sure, but we’re probably about to find out.
Coach Gundy wasn't really handed hundreds of millions of dollar, but he was given what he needed to succeed at a high level. The total cost of renovations to BPS came to $326M. The indoor facility was $20M. My guess is we've had about $350 to $400 million total invested in football facilities since the renovation of Lewis field began.

I'm pretty sure this article is inaccurate. Oklahoma State's investment in the hedge fund grew to over $400 million before the financial crisis. I'm fairly certain that we pulled the money out around $120-$130 million before it went to zero. Then Boone Pickens made additional donations so that we could finish the stadium without debt.

I still don't understand how this happened. The very definition of a hedge fund is to hedge your investments against huge losses. It seems more like this fund was far over leveraged instead of hedged.

Edit: We did pull out at $125 million.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304782404577488592793245510
 

Birry

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Coach Gundy wasn't really handed hundreds of millions of dollar, but he was given what he needed to succeed at a high level. The total cost of renovations to BPS came to $326M. The indoor facility was $20M. My guess is we've had about $350 to $400 million total invested in football facilities since the renovation of Lewis field began.

I'm pretty sure this article is inaccurate. Oklahoma State's investment in the hedge fund grew to over $400 million before the financial crisis. I'm fairly certain that we pulled the money out around $120-$130 million before it went to zero. Then Boone Pickens made additional donations so that we could finish the stadium without debt.

I still don't understand how this happened. The very definition of a hedge fund is to hedge your investments against huge losses. It seems more like this fund was far over leveraged instead of hedged.

Edit: We did pull out at $125 million.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304782404577488592793245510
Hush with facts and logic. He's almost got his strawman into submission.