Notre Dame Cathedral is burning - Ile de France

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bleedinorange

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#61
The dislike of the French for my generation is rooted in the arrogance/righteous indignation they display about everything American while treading on the bodies of some 58,000 American soldiers still interred in French soil. Except for them, the official language of France would be German. Of course now with their liberal immigration policies I'm told the language is leaning toward Arabic. Don't know how true that is and don't intend to go there and find out.
 
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CaliforniaCowboy

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#62
One has to admit that it is weird that this would happen during Holy week and that a project they have attempted to fund raise for and didn't really have enough money is now going to be fully funded to the Nth degree.

Be it terrorist, an accident, the contractor, or the church itself for insurance and donation...I hope they get to the truth of the matter and I sincerely hope it wasn't sinister. An accident is the best case.

Still it's odd to have happened this week. Just seems to coincidental.
In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered— meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.
 

Rack

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#63
I will concede much of the impression Americans have about the French is actually about Parisians. Which is about as fair as judging Americans by thinking we're all like New Yorkers.
The only issue I have with that is that New Yorkers and Parisians are also diverse in their political thought...just one side is more vocal and the instigators and the other is more passive. But I get it and that's a fair example.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

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#64
This sounds like a job for Inspector Clouseau....

Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said the inquiry into what caused the fire would be “long and complex.”
Fifty investigators were working

Among those will likely be Julien Le Bras.

The young construction boss bragged about his company's ability to protect historic sites when he landed the lucrative $5.6 million deal to repair the famed cathedral's spire.

Bras, 32, owns the company Le Bras Freres. He has boasted in the past that "our first thought is to protect the values of historical buildings" and that "it's in our DNA."

(oh Julien there might be our only hope of an objective investigation, since he would have a vested interest in clearing his name and company)
 

Jostate

CPTNQUIRK called me a greenhorn
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#65
The dislike of the French for my generation is rooted in the arrogance/righteous indignation they display about everything American while treading on the bodies of some 58,000 American soldiers still interred in French soil. Except for them, the official language of France would be German. Of course now with their liberal immigration policies I'm told the language is leaning toward Arabic. Don't know how true that is and don't intend to go there and find out.
I did notice Balin slipped this nugget in his tirade:

Our two countries are pretty close to each other because of the history we share together (Lafayette and your independance war, your help during the end of WWI, not so much during WW2 but the money you loan us after the war). .
Apparently those soldiers were just bankers there to float a loan.
 

Balin

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#66
The dislike of the French for my generation is rooted in the arrogance/righteous indignation they display about everything American while treading on the bodies of some 58,000 American soldiers still interred in French soil. Except for them, the official language of France would be German. Of course now with their liberal immigration policies I'm told the language is leaning toward Arabic. Don't know how true that is and don't intend to go there and find out.
Bullshit. We'll always be greatful for the American sacrifice on the France soil but don't give it too much credits on the fate of the WW2. The war was already lost by Germany after the turnaround point of Stalingrad battle. The "you would speach german if we didn't come" is
1- Kinda boring
2- Wrong

And I won't even answer about the Arabic language non sense. But coming from a country where a lot of channel are in spanish I can't help myself but to find it funny. ;)

Apparently those soldiers were just bankers there to float a loan.
You just made sure URSS was not the only power in Europe after the WW2. Which was the right thing to do :)
 

Balin

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#67
In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered— meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.
And so are the antisemtic and anti-muslim violences. Don't be close minded.
 
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#68
Bullshit. We'll always be greatful for the American sacrifice on the France soil but don't give it too much credits on the fate of the WW2. The war was already lost by Germany after the turnaround point of Stalingrad battle. The "you would speach german if we didn't come" is
1- Kinda boring
2- Wrong

And I won't even answer about the Arabic language non sense. But coming from a country where a lot of channel are in spanish I can't help myself but to find it funny. ;)


You just made sure URSS was not the only power in Europe after the WW2. Which was the right thing to do :)
Who do you think gave the Russians hundreds of thousands of trucks accounting for over 2/3rds of their fleet, thousands of railroad locomotives and freight cars, and millions upon millions of tons of food and supplies enabling them to not be run over by the Germans? Who engaged the German army on multiple fronts requiring pulling hundreds of thousands of German soldiers to other theaters of action? Look at it any way you want, ie, from a battle standpoint only, but to dismiss the American involvement is ludicrous and yes, you would now be speaking German otherwise. You are welcome.
 

Rack

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#69
We Americans need to learn more about WWI as well. If we did we would find out that the French lost around 2 MILLION in WWI and only about 500,000 in WWII. Americans did indeed, "save the day" in WWI and WWII did indeed turn round at Stalingrad. The USSR lost over 22 million...likely closer to 28 million. It's the sort of chest pumping bravado that says to a Frenchmen "you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us" that causes some of the back and fort angst...Even if true, likely not because even under German rule they likely could have held their language intact, it's just rude and insensitive. Can you imagine them telling us we would still be under the Queen if not for them? While it may be somewhat true, it's rude and insensitive and somewhat inaccurate as well.

Look, I used to say stuff like that, but I doubt I would ever be so rude to say that to a Frenchmen directly. We really don't know if "they would be speaking German" if it wasn't for us...They certainly might be speaking Russian, but who knows.
 

bleedinorange

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#70
Bullshit. We'll always be greatful for the American sacrifice on the France soil but don't give it too much credits on the fate of the WW2. The war was already lost by Germany after the turnaround point of Stalingrad battle. The "you would speach german if we didn't come" is
1- Kinda boring
2- Wrong

And I won't even answer about the Arabic language non sense. But coming from a country where a lot of channel are in spanish I can't help myself but to find it funny. ;)


You just made sure URSS was not the only power in Europe after the WW2. Which was the right thing to do :)
Typical response from the nation who knows when to fold-em. Your revisionist history isn't surprising. It took the Germans a whole 7 weeks to defeat France and force the British out.

Most the French soldiers killed were found with wounds in their back. ;)

The actual source of all the "coward" references come from a single individual whose actions during WW2 were indeed disgusting.

1940
France to surrender
With Paris fallen and the German conquest of France reaching its conclusion, Marshal Henri Petain replaces Paul Reynaud as prime minister and announces his intention to sign an armistice with the Nazis. The next day, French General Charles de Gaulle, not very well known even to the French, made a broadcast to France from England, urging his countrymen to continue the fight against Germany.
A military hero during World War I, Petain was appointed vice premier of France in May 1940 to boost morale in a country crumbling under the force of the Nazi invasion. Instead, Petain arranged an armistice with the Nazis. The armistice, signed by the French on June 22, went into effect on June 25, and more than half of France was occupied by the Germans. In July, Petain took office as “chief of state” at Vichy, a city in unoccupied France. The Vichy government under Petain collaborated with the Nazis, and French citizens suffered on both sides of the divided nation. In 1942, Pierre Laval, an opportunistic French fascist and dutiful Nazi collaborator, won the trust of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, and the elderly Petain became merely a figurehead in the Vichy regime.
After the Normandy invasion in 1944, Petain and Laval were forced to flee to German protection in the east. Both were eventually captured, found guilty of high treason, and sentenced to die. Laval was executed in 1945, but provincial French leader Charles de Gaulle commuted Petain’s sentence to life imprisonment.
Petain died on the Ile d’Yeu off France in 1951.
 
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bleedinorange

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#71
We Americans need to learn more about WWI as well. If we did we would find out that the French lost around 2 MILLION in WWI and only about 500,000 in WWII. Americans did indeed, "save the day" in WWI and WWII did indeed turn round at Stalingrad. The USSR lost over 22 million...likely closer to 28 million. It's the sort of chest pumping bravado that says to a Frenchmen "you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us" that causes some of the back and fort angst...Even if true, likely not because even under German rule they likely could have held their language intact, it's just rude and insensitive. Can you imagine them telling us we would still be under the Queen if not for them? While it may be somewhat true, it's rude and insensitive and somewhat inaccurate as well.

Look, I used to say stuff like that, but I doubt I would ever be so rude to say that to a Frenchmen directly. We really don't know if "they would be speaking German" if it wasn't for us...They certainly might be speaking Russian, but who knows.
Take a pill Rack, the old saw isn't repeated for historical accuracy but it's a metaphor for Germany ruling France which was entirely possible.
 

Rack

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#72
Take a pill Rack, the old saw isn't repeated for historical accuracy but it's a metaphor for Germany ruling France which was entirely possible.
Certainly it was bleed and they did briefly, but you don't tell a Frenchman that he would be speaking German if it wasn't for the USA. My point here is that arrogance is unproductive and rude. I'm not upset about it in anyway, just want people to think in more accurate ways about history and be at least somewhat sensitive to our friends on the other side of the pond. We are all taught history through a certain prism. Right now history is skewed to the left by that prism but even when we skew it right it's not an accurate lenses from which to view it. This is why we need to be life long learners and refuse to believe the first "line" someone tells us about history. It''s lazy. So, I'm sure you agree that it's stupid for us to skew history and not to be accurate in our understanding. I'm not saying they wouldn't be speaking German...just that it's rude, and likely inaccurate long term, to say that.
 
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bleedinorange

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#73
Certainly it was bleed, but you don't tell a Frenchman that he would be speaking German if it wasn't for the USA. My point here is that arrogance is unproductive and rude. I'm not upset about it in anyway, just want people to think in more accurate ways about history and be at least somewhat sensitive to our friends on the other side of the pond. We are all taught history through a certain prism. Right now history is skewed to the left by that prism but even when we skew it right it's not an accurate lenses from which to view it. This is why we need to be life long learners and refuse to believe the first "line" someone tells us about history. It''s lazy. So, I'm sure you agree that it's stupid for us to skew history and not to be accurate in our understanding. I'm not saying they wouldn't be speaking German...just that it's rude, and likely inaccurate long term, to say that.
I didn't create the history, I just helped educate you about it. You're welcome.
 

Rack

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#74
I have a question bleed....who do you think most French people think is more French?

The Guy they named their national airport after...or the guy they executed for treasonous war crimes?

Certainly both of them are...but Point being, don't lump folks together. I hate it when foreign peoples do this to us...like we were in lock step with Obama when he was in office...or are now with Trump. It's an ignorant way to view a nation.
 

wrenhal

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#75
While this indeed is funny to us "Mericans," (I chucked)... the French really don't, and haven't done this in their long tragic history...they have been through some homegrown tyrants...foreign powers...dictatorial monarchs...those who opposed them and then became them themselves...the thought police and guillotine...and recently lots of Terrorism... YET they always have strived and achieved independence from those who ruled over them for a time...and always have rebounded. I feel for the French, they have had FAR more than their fair share of tragedy and bloodshed. I'm thankful for the support they gave to the USA during the Revolution and the statue of Liberty and...well, even Oklahoma (Napoleon sold it to us on the cheap). Most of our founders loved them and spent a lot of time in Paris. We, American's, REALLY need to brush up on our history before we make blanket statements.

Sorry Jostate, it just bothers me that we still use these shallow jokes regarding a diverse and proud people whos history and struggle is something to be respected not made fun of. Especially when they are dealing with more "stuff."
Probably a lot of truth to this and I'm over my head on a history debate. But I first became aware of the French attitude towards the US when they refused to allow us to fly through their air space when we were going after Gaddafi. I have heard, from some pretty credible sounding people on more than one occasion, that the French promise greater support behind closed doors then disappear in some of the skirmishes with the Middle East or support of Israel.

I've seen the film of them shaving the heads of women and publicly displaying them for their opposition to the Nazis after they fell to Germany in WW 2. They pass laws to protect their language from outside influence because they see it as declining in influence on the global scene. They seem to define being French as being anti American. They dismiss us as unrefined war mongers at the same time they cut their defense budget knowing the big war monger is there to keep things safe. I think they were a better ally in the 1700's than they are now.

Beautiful country, beautiful culture and contribution to the world, but I'm not a big fan of their over inflated sense of their place in the world and anti Americanism. They're the Texas A&M of countries. Admittedly we're the UT.
They did also warn Iraq when the u.n. "surprise" inspection were going to happen.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#77
The dislike of the French for my generation is rooted in the arrogance/righteous indignation they display about everything American while treading on the bodies of some 58,000 American soldiers still interred in French soil. Except for them, the official language of France would be German. Of course now with their liberal immigration policies I'm told the language is leaning toward Arabic. Don't know how true that is and don't intend to go there and find out.
Bullshit. We'll always be greatful for the American sacrifice on the France soil but don't give it too much credits on the fate of the WW2. The war was already lost by Germany after the turnaround point of Stalingrad battle. The "you would speach german if we didn't come" is
1- Kinda boring
2- Wrong

And I won't even answer about the Arabic language non sense. But coming from a country where a lot of channel are in spanish I can't help myself but to find it funny. ;)

Apparently those soldiers were just bankers there to float a loan.
You just made sure URSS was not the only power in Europe after the WW2. Which was the right thing to do :)
If America did not get into the European theatre, WW2 would definitely have turned out different. Not only did we have soldiers that fought for Europe, we had a whole group that did nothing but help return stolen art from the Germans.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 
Nov 6, 2010
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#78
I have a question bleed....who do you think most French people think is more French?

The Guy they named their national airport after...or the guy they executed for treasonous war crimes?

Certainly both of them are...but Point being, don't lump folks together. I hate it when foreign peoples do this to us...like we were in lock step with Obama when he was in office...or are now with Trump. It's an ignorant way to view a nation.
Wasting your breath, but I appreciate the effort.
 

Binman4OSU

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#80
I think we often forget (as Trump pointed out in his meeting with Macron in 2017) the French involvement in helping the US gain independence from England during the Revolutionary war. American's and French have died to help each other for centuries and is the first and oldest ally of the United States of America