New guys will save us next year?

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Nov 8, 2013
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#82
Maybe this is another thread... I love OSU, was there a couple of weeks ago giving a speech. But, this idea that OSU has been a basketball powerhouse isn't based in reality. We've won some amazing games over the year, but the hardware and post season accolades don't support this.

If OSU can be a consistent NCAA tournament team with either a regular season or Big 12 tourney title every 7 years, it would be an improvement. Heck, if we can finish top 3 every year with an 8 seed in the NCAA tourney, it would be a great.

Looking at the history below, and including Big 8/12 results, my ranking would be:

1) KU
2) OU
3) KSU
4) OSU
5) Neb
6) UT
7) Mizzou
8) ISU
9) WVU
10) CU
11) Bay (should lose points for being scum)
12) TT
13) TCU

NCAA Tournament Bids
Kansas - 47
Texas - 34
Oklahoma - 31
Kansas State - 30
West Virginia - 29
Oklahoma State - 28
Iowa State - 19
Texas Tech - 15
Baylor - 11
TCU - 8

NCAA Final Four Appearances (bold years indicate that it happened during the lifetime of an 18 year old recruit)
Kansas - 15 ('40, '52, '53, '57, '71, '74, '86, '88, '91, '93, '02, '03, '08, '12, '18)
Oklahoma State - 6 ('45, '46, '49, '51, '95, '04)
Oklahoma - 5 ('39, '47, '88, '02, '16)
Kansas State - 4 ('48, '51, '58, '64)
Texas - 3 ('43, '47, '03)
Baylor - 2 ('48, '50)
West Virginia - 2 ('59, '10)
Iowa State - 1 ('44)

Big 12 Regular Season Championships
Kansas - 18
Texas - 3 (includes 2 ties with KU)
Iowa State - 2
Oklahoma State - 1
Oklahoma - 1 (tied with KU)
Kansas State - 1 (tied with KU)

Big 12 Tournament Championships
Kansas - 11
Iowa State - 4
Oklahoma - 3
Oklahoma State - 2
Missouri - 2

Big 8 Regular Season Championships
Kansas - 43
Kansas State - 17
Missouri - 15
Oklahoma - 13
Nebraska - 7
Colorado - 5
Iowa State - 4
Oklahoma State - 2
Drake/Grinnell/Washington (St. Louis) - 0

Big 8 Tournament Championships
Missouri - 6
Kansas - 4
Oklahoma - 4
Oklahoma State - 2
Kansas State - 2
Iowa State/Nebraska - 1
Colorado - 0
I agree with you that our perception of our school being a basketball power at a tier just below the blue bloods is probably over-stated. I love OSU basketball historically. I am a big fan of Boynton and am optimistic for the future. But I was shocked when I recently created a chart showing a 4-year rolling average win total for all Big XII basketball programs (basically the only context current recruits might have). I expected to see a decline, but was not ready to see that we've fallen from essentially tied for 2nd to last place. [Note that the last data point is artificially deflated for all teams since the win totals were from earlier this week (before Baylor win, for example).] I really agree with some of the other posts on this thread saying our guys this year have really had to play in positions outside of their strengths. Great to see them develop and compete hard, but it's really a stretch for this team to excel with the remaining existing pieces. Looking forward to seeing Waters, Dizzy, and Cam playing to their strengths next year.
 

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CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
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So Cal
#85
And he couldn't coach a lick. Eddie took his talent and immediately went to the sweet sixteen. Leonard wouldn't have sniffed an NCAA tournament with those guys.
yawn.... as a first time head coach he took us from an 8-20 team to 17 win seasons and back to back 2nd round NIT tournaments - which got him a big promotion.

what in the world makes you think he wouldn't have made the next step?

In his 30 years as a collegiate head coach, his teams have qualified for nine NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournaments and 11 National Invitation Tournaments, highlighted by appearances in the NCAA Tournament's Elite Eight in 2018 (with Florida State), and Sweet 16 in 2011 (with Florida State) and 2000 (with Miami).

Hamilton was named ACC Coach of the Year on March 10, 2009, and a second time in 2012. Hamilton is the first coach to be named coach of the year in both the Big East and ACC. In 2018 he was named the Clarence "Big House" Gaines National Coach of the Year by the National Sports Media Association
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#86
yawn.... as a first time head coach he took us from an 8-20 team to 17 win seasons and back to back 2nd round NIT tournaments - which got him a big promotion.

what in the world makes you think he wouldn't have made the next step?

In his 30 years as a collegiate head coach, his teams have qualified for nine NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournaments and 11 National Invitation Tournaments, highlighted by appearances in the NCAA Tournament's Elite Eight in 2018 (with Florida State), and Sweet 16 in 2011 (with Florida State) and 2000 (with Miami).

Hamilton was named ACC Coach of the Year on March 10, 2009, and a second time in 2012. Hamilton is the first coach to be named coach of the year in both the Big East and ACC. In 2018 he was named the Clarence "Big House" Gaines National Coach of the Year by the National Sports Media Association
You get the same crap if you dare suggest Miles left the program in better shape than he found it. Totally predictable.

I really don't get why it's so hard to give both guys some credit, but apparently, it is.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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#88
You can't seriously name 15-20 programs with better history than OSU. The 1962-1989 dark period is significant... No doubt... But the Iba and Sutton years were good enough to put us in the top tier of college basketball. National writers like Seth Davis and Gary Parrish agree.
I'll make a go at it... Take conference performance out of the equation, in which OSU has been maybe the 4th best team in the Big 8/12 and previous iterations, historically. Let's look just at NCAA tournament performances.

You are going to criticize this, but I'll argue that a team's success in the last 50 years is much more valuable than a team whose successes came in the 1940's and 50's. If that weren't the case, we would be talking about Illinois and Cornell at historic football powerhouses. Deondrick Glass would try to win his Heisman as a freshman at Army. I believe that recency should be given a little credit.

So, looking at the last 50 year. I attributed 1 point for a bid, 4 points for a sweet 16, 8 points for elite 8, 16 points for final 4, 32 points for a finals appearance, and 64 points for a championship. I didn't look at first round wins for two reasons: a top seed often plays joker teams in the first round, but also because I don't have all day to parse info. To qualify for points, a team's last appearance in a certain round of the tournament had to be in the last 50 years. This produced the following ranking:

1UCLA
2Kentucky
3North Carolina
4Duke
5Kansas
6Indiana
7Connecticut
8Michigan State
9Villanova
10Louisville
11Ohio State
12Michigan
13Syracuse
14Florida
15Georgetown
16Arizona
17Arkansas
18North Carolina State
19Marquette
20Oklahoma
21Utah
22UNLV
23Illinois
24Oklahoma State
25Cincinnati

Forget my belief about recency. What if we applied the same point scheme to the NCAA tournament team REGARDLESS of when they appearances/wins occurred. Here is your top 25:

1UCLA
2Kentucky
3North Carolina
4Duke
5Kansas
6Indiana
7Connecticut
8Michigan State
9OhioState
10Villanova
11Louisville
12Michigan
13Syracuse
14Florida
15Georgetown
16Arizona
17Arkansas
18North Carolina State
19Oklahoma State
20Cincinnati
21Utah
22Marquette
23Wisconsin
24Kansas State
25Oklahoma

Last one, and this is focused on recruiting. What if we wanted to use the "tradition" pitch in recruiting. I don't think recruits care about what happened before they were born. Again, out of respect for my family and the fact I don't want to do this all day, I just looked at NCAA tournament wins since 2000. Here is the top-20:

1. Duke
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina
4. Michigan State
5. Kentucky
6. Connecticut
7. Florida
8. Wisconsin
9. Syracuse
10. Arizona
11. UCLA
12. Louisville
13. Gonzaga
14. Maryland
15. Villanova
16. tOSU
17. Butler
18. OU
19. Texas
20. Xavier - 18 wins
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Oklahoma State has won 10 games since March 17, 2000. Actually... this is better than I thought.

So, in terms of NCAA tournament performance in the lifetimes of our current recruits, wins alone would put OSU at 4th in the conference, right about where I think we (the royal we) should be able to climb in the next couple of year.

All-time, OSU has 38 NCAA tournament wins, placing us 3rd in the B12 behind Kansas and OU with 107 and 41, respectively. With regard to NCAA tournament winning %, OSU is 30th at 58.5%, only behind KU in the Big 12 who is at 69.9% (niiice).

Going back to your original comment, I think it can very legitimately be argued that there are 15-20 teams better than OSU. However, 25 teams would be pushing it. Looking only at NCAA info, I would put OSU in the 20-25 range.