LGBT clergy are threatening to divide the United Methodist Church

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RxCowboy

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#41
Nor did he denounce slavery, yet we sort of overruled him on that one and got rid of it.
"We" being Christians. Check the history of the abolitionist movement. Where slavery is still practiced in this world are non-christian countries. "We" being Christians do not live by the words of Christ alone but by the entirety of the New Testament.

"As Christ did for us, so Paul did for Onesimus."

Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. 11 (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) 12 I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. 13 I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. 15 For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, 16 no longer as a bondservant[c] but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. 18 If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account. 19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

Who the Son sets free is free indeed.
 
Nov 23, 2007
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#42
The biggest schism in the Methodist Church was over the issue of slavery. That rift did not heal for almost 100 years and churches were not fully integrated for almost another 30.

Hopefully the church will reach a consensus on what is just and righteous more quickly, this time.
 
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#43
The biggest schism in the Methodist Church was over the issue of slavery. That rift did not heal for almost 100 years and churches were not fully integrated for almost another 30.

Hopefully the church will reach a consensus on what is just and righteous more quickly, this time.
The biggest schism in the Methodist Church was over the issue of slavery. That rift did not heal for almost 100 years and churches were not fully integrated for almost another 30.

Hopefully the church will reach a consensus on what is just and righteous more quickly, this time.
N
The biggest schism in the Methodist Church was over the issue of slavery. That rift did not heal for almost 100 years and churches were not fully integrated for almost another 30.

Hopefully the church will reach a consensus on what is just and righteous more quickly, this time.[/QUOTE
Not only have we reached a "consensus" in church but we have acted accordingly and have reached out and helped those who society has pushed aside
 

steross

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#44
"We" being Christians. Check the history of the abolitionist movement. Where slavery is still practiced in this world are non-christian countries. "We" being Christians do not live by the words of Christ alone but by the entirety of the New Testament.

"As Christ did for us, so Paul did for Onesimus."

Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. 11 (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) 12 I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. 13 I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. 15 For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, 16 no longer as a bondservant[c] but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. 18 If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account. 19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

Who the Son sets free is free indeed.
Yep. That is my point. I hope that someday Christians figure this one out just like that did that one.
 

RxCowboy

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#46
Yep. That is my point. I hope that someday Christians figure this one out just like that did that one.
This is different in kind from slavery. In slavery, one party has no choice and is completely innocent. That's why the abolitionist movement was willing to go to war over it, to free the innocent (some see abortion the same way, fighting for the innocent). However, in homosexuality, all parties who practice it are sinning.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There's more. You have to excise some pretty clear and plain teaching in the NT in order to accept LGBTQ-aphabet soup. Cut enough pieces of the Bible out and at some point you're no longer practicing Christianity.
 

wrenhal

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#47
Yep. That is my point. I hope that someday Christians figure this one out just like that did that one.
This is different in kind from slavery. In slavery, one party has no choice and is completely innocent. That's why the abolitionist movement was willing to go to war over it, to free the innocent (some see abortion the same way, fighting for the innocent). However, in homosexuality, all parties who practice it are sinning.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There's more. You have to excise some pretty clear and plain teaching in the NT in order to accept LGBTQ-aphabet soup. Cut enough pieces of the Bible out and at some point you're no longer practicing Christianity.
Some points about slavery in the Bible. Unlike the selling of Joseph to the Egyptians, the slavery talked about in other parts of the Bible is more like an indentured servitude. Also, the Bible never says it's ok, just how you should treat them. It's fairly neutral on that point.

With homosexuality it's very clear, you can't be married in the eyes of God, and thus are committing a sin (sexually immoral, adultery). Clearly called a sin in the Bible.

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steross

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#48
Some points about slavery in the Bible. Unlike the selling of Joseph to the Egyptians, the slavery talked about in other parts of the Bible is more like an indentured servitude. Also, the Bible never says it's ok, just how you should treat them. It's fairly neutral on that point.

With homosexuality it's very clear, you can't be married in the eyes of God, and thus are committing a sin (sexually immoral, adultery). Clearly called a sin in the Bible.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Fairly neutral? If the bible thinks this is OK:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

But homosexuality isn't? Sure. Whatever you want to believe to keep your rationalization intact. Fact is Christians have moved away from slavery (even if they want to pretend it was merely "indentured servitude") because it is wrong. And, over time, Christians will figure out a way to say that homosexuality is OK for Christians, too. Because it is the right thing to do and it is for the most part a just religion.
 

steross

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#49
Hmmm, so you equate being homosexual with slavery. That's interesting, it's wrong, but interesting
And you are attempting a sad little strawman argument that is so far off base to my point that it can't even stand up. There is no "equating" in what I said.
 

bleedinorange

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#50
Here's one I'd like to bounce off the wall. As a person who holds Christian beliefs and with an MS in biological science with an emphasis on anatomy and physiology, I offer the postulation that barring illness (physical) or resultant from injury that the great majority of homosexuals are born homosexual. I consider all variants of said postulation to be forms of mental illness. Ma'am.

Change my mind.
 
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#51
Here's one I'd like to bounce off the wall. As a person who holds Christian beliefs and with an MS in biological science with an emphasis on anatomy and physiology, I offer the postulation that barring illness (physical) or resultant from injury that the great majority of homosexuals are born homosexual. I consider all variants of said postulation to be forms of mental illness. Ma'am.

Change my mind.
By definition it's a mental illness. I'm not sure they're born that way though. I believe their could be events that trigger that behavior.
 

bleedinorange

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#52
By definition it's a mental illness. I'm not sure they're born that way though. I believe their could be events that trigger that behavior.
I qualified my statement concerning "events" (illness/injury) even given the great unlikelihood such exists beyond sexual abuse which would fall under the "injury" category. I would challenge for empirical evidence it is a mental illness when many instances of same sex preferences are evident in early childhood.

If you can't choose to willingly engage in and enjoy homosexual behavior to the exclusion of all other, how then can one assume a lifetime homosexual can any more choose heterosexual behavior?
 

MustangPokeFan

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#58
Actually I’ve seen both. I know friends who very obviously were gay from the second they existed for whatever reason, lack of testosterone, too much estrogen, too much testosterone.....who knows the reasons? But they are very clearly different from the beginning. However I also have seen people who were just deviant, who will have sex with anything that moves and have no discipline with regard to their lusts.

More frequently I’ve seen people who were environmentally gay. People who had traumatic damaging childhood experiences and were not loved properly, had an abusive overbearing parent of the opposite sex or just were thrust into circumstances where they felt totally unloved and the only love they received at the weakest most vulnerable time in their lives was from a gay person and over a period of time convinced themselves they were gay when for most of their lives they had strong sexual attractions to the opposite sex. I’ve seen this in multiple circumstances and in many of the cases, those people flounder back-and-forth trying to figure out exactly what they are with regard to sexuality.

It is not a simple black-and-white issue. I believe there are definitely people born with a propensity to be gay but there are others who become that way and make a “choice” due to the things that happen to them in life. Just my two cents concerning what I have witnessed regarding the issue.

That is what makes this church issue so complicated. I take the stance that all people are loved by God and that I am directed by Christ to love all people as he loves all people. However, it becomes complicated when a sexuality movement is not satisfied with love and acceptance but demands that others condone, promote and celebrate behavior that is clearly condemned in scripture. That makes appointing such people as clergy or leaders in the church a very difficult hurdle for many to reconcile with their faith. Homosexuality is clearly not compatible with Christian teaching unless you deem that scripture is not the divine inspired word of God and propose that we just ignore those parts of the Bible. That being said, homosexuals are hardly the only people who abuse and distort what God intended sexuality to be for.

It’s such a complicated issue, I hope we can all just love each other and at times agree to disagree.
 

steross

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#59
When your "opinion" is faulty time to move admit you don't know what you are talking about
Ok, ok. If you just claim my opinion is wrong, then it is. Gotcha. Oh, and excellent touch with the "quotes" around it to show even more that my "opinion" doesn't even rise to the level of opinion. Now I really understand the error of my ways.

See my mistake was thinking that your faith might be biasing you against even seeing another side of an issue other than what you have been raised to believe.

But, now I know that can't be. Your belief and thinking is right (and not "right" but really right). All others are wrong. In the future, I'll be sure to run any "opinion" that I have by you before I post is so you can simply decree it right or wrong with no justification and save me the effort of posting when I am wrong.

Thanks for explaining how things "work."
 
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#60
Ok, ok. If you just claim my opinion is wrong, then it is. Gotcha. Oh, and excellent touch with the "quotes" around it to show even more that my "opinion" doesn't even rise to the level of opinion. Now I really understand the error of my ways.

See my mistake was thinking that your faith might be biasing you against even seeing another side of an issue other than what you have been raised to believe.

But, now I know that can't be. Your belief and thinking is right (and not "right" but really right). All others are wrong. In the future, I'll be sure to run any "opinion" that I have by you before I post is so you can simply decree it right or wrong with no justification and save me the effort of posting when I am wrong.

Thanks for explaining how things "work."
You are welcome, I am available to provide more life lessons to help you have a full and well rounded life.