Is OSU the new KSU

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Sep 29, 2006
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#1
I've had this thought for awhile and I don't know if it is a good or bad thing but Gundy seems to be taking OSU down the Bill Snyder path.

Does this sound familiar:
Hire above average coaches that are loyal and don't have an obsession with moving up the ladder, recruit a bunch of high character 2-3 star kids that love to play football, win 7-8 games a year against average teams while occasionally throwing out an upset, run a highly respectable program and become a legend. Gundy has always had immense respect for Snyder and I really think this is the future of OSU football. I worry that the 9-10 wins seasons are behind us.

Again, I am not saying this is good or bad just an observation. Personally if this is our future I would love to see us throw the kitchen sink at the basketball program and get it to a perennial top 10 program.
 

More Cowbell

Territorial Marshal
May 2, 2005
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#3
I don't think this is a terrible assessment, nor really a bad place to exist. Gundy has said quite a few times that the goal every year is to try and win the conference, so that would be shooting a bit higher than KSU normally achieves. Therefore, I say as long as we are KSU in our down years and every few years when we are stocked with talent make a good run at the B12 title, that's a healthy program that we should enjoy as a fanbase.
 
Jul 28, 2006
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#4
I've had this thought for awhile and I don't know if it is a good or bad thing but Gundy seems to be taking OSU down the Bill Snyder path.

Does this sound familiar:
Hire above average coaches that are loyal and don't have an obsession with moving up the ladder, recruit a bunch of high character 2-3 star kids that love to play football, win 7-8 games a year against average teams while occasionally throwing out an upset, run a highly respectable program and become a legend. Gundy has always had immense respect for Snyder and I really think this is the future of OSU football. I worry that the 9-10 wins seasons are behind us.

Again, I am not saying this is good or bad just an observation. Personally if this is our future I would love to see us throw the kitchen sink at the basketball program and get it to a perennial top 10 program.
Better check KSU’s history. They’ve won two big twelve titles and have numerous double digit win seasons. You could argue their program is better than ours over the last twenty years and you’d be correct.
 
Sep 29, 2006
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#5
The 10 win seasons are only a year in the past.


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I'm certainly not trying to disparage MG or KSU for that matter, he has been (is) the best thing to happen to OSU football. I just worry that MG's fire is not burning as hot as it was. I see MG in the same light as a Kirk Ferentz, who is a very good coach. You know he is going to win and do all the right things, but you never really expect championships.
 

CPTNQUIRK

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Nov 20, 2006
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#6
I'm certainly not trying to disparage MG or KSU for that matter, he has been (is) the best thing to happen to OSU football. I just worry that MG's fire is not burning as hot as it was. I see MG in the same light as a Kirk Ferentz, who is a very good coach. You know he is going to win and do all the right things, but you never really expect championships.
The thing I see Gundy doing is bringing in new blood to the coaching staff, especially the coordinators, to hopefully improve both the offense and defense. Loyalty helps only if the loyal coaches are worth keeping.

KSU is 79-49 and OSU is 94-35 in the last 10 years. OU is 105-28. I would argue that we are closer to OU than to KSU. We are only one year away from three consecutive 10 win seasons and the future is looking bright. I see weakness in the original post that I don’t see in our team.
 

PontiacPoke717

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Nov 24, 2014
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#7
I've had this thought for awhile and I don't know if it is a good or bad thing but Gundy seems to be taking OSU down the Bill Snyder path.

Does this sound familiar:
Hire above average coaches that are loyal and don't have an obsession with moving up the ladder, recruit a bunch of high character 2-3 star kids that love to play football, win 7-8 games a year against average teams while occasionally throwing out an upset, run a highly respectable program and become a legend. Gundy has always had immense respect for Snyder and I really think this is the future of OSU football. I worry that the 9-10 wins seasons are behind us.

Again, I am not saying this is good or bad just an observation. Personally if this is our future I would love to see us throw the kitchen sink at the basketball program and get it to a perennial top 10 program.

After 1 down season, where 9 wins was literally 2 or 3 plays away. You're ready to claim us the 7-8 win team of KSU? Simmer down.

That being said, Gundy went out and tried to make improvements both on offense (this year) and defense (last year). I recall on numerous occasions this season where Gundy was really disappointed in his coaches performances (via the post-game presser). This mantra of Gundy being satisfied with the status quo is tiresome.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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#8
Bringing in new coaches can energize a team, look at the defense last year they may not have performed better because there were a lot of 1st year players at key positions but they were playing inspired. That gives me hope that there are major improvements on defense in 2019. I think Gleeson is stepping into a much better situation than Knowles was. We will see how quick he transforms the offense to his style and how energized Gundy is with a new set of coordinators.
 

PontiacPoke717

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Nov 24, 2014
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#9
Bringing in new coaches can energize a team, look at the defense last year they may not have performed better because there were a lot of 1st year players at key positions but they were playing inspired. That gives me hope that there are major improvements on defense in 2019. I think Gleeson is stepping into a much better situation than Knowles was. We will see how quick he transforms the offense to his style and how energized Gundy is with a new set of coordinators.
Well, being a DC in the big 12 is setting yourself up for failure more times than not. I'd say the DBs were leaps and bounds better by the end of the year and our secondary as a whole will be a strong point next season.

We got gashed in the run game the last 4 or 5 games of the season, due to depth issues in the front 6 and really missing DD. The defense was playing at a higher level than earlier in the season - growing pains were expected when installing a new system and trying to break in the new safeties.
 
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Nov 30, 2010
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#10
I have observed the similarities between the 2 programs for the past 4-5 years. It seems whatever one goes through, the other has similar instances the following year, down to personnel changes. So that is not a surprise.

I think the history of each program has some bearing on what fans should realistically expect. K-State was historically bad (I mean really bad) until Coach Snyder came. Some may be too young to remember them being dubbed Futility U by Sports Illustrated up until the early 90's.

7-9 win seasons although troublesome for some K-State fans, is a realistic expectation in my opinion. On the other hand OSU's had winning seasons but for the most point has shown mediocrity especially when comparing the program to OU. I think 9-10 win seasons should be be the norm.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#11
There are definitely some similarities, but I feel like we've deviated a lot from them over the past decade:
1. Our head coach has leveraged his way to a top 10 salary. (Snyder was 39th)
2. Our assistant coaching budget was 25th. (K-State's was 35th)
3. Our cheapest season ticket is $400. (K-State's cheapest is $150)
4. We signed three 4-star prospects this year. (K-State has signed 2 over the past decade)
5. We've spent a small fortune on facilities.

The expectations are definitely higher now in Stillwater than in Manhattan. We've averaged 9.4 wins per year over the past decade. That's the benchmark. Dropping down to 7-8 wins per year won't cut it.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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#12
Well, being a DC in the big 12 is setting yourself up for failure more times than not. I'd say the DBs were leaps and bounds better by the end of the year and our secondary as a whole will be a strong point next season.
I have been around long enough now to realize how cyclical even football is. The Big 8 was known for it's defenses. We scoffed at high scoring games played by the likes of the PAC 8, and MWC.

I expect to see a change (not 180 degree) where the scoring is tamped down a bit. ISU created a defense to combat the spread offense. HCs are realizing hurry up does more damage to their defenses. I expect far more balance in running as well now that Mahomes, Rudolph, Mayfield, and now Murray and Grier are gone.
 
Nov 8, 2013
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#13
Debating similarities and differences with Kansas State is an interesting topic. You can argue it both ways. See the annual win total chart below and the 10-year moving average for the on-the-field results. I do think Gundy is trying to do things to avoid us declining like KSU did. I do not buy the argument that last season is evidence of a slide. It could be an inflection point, but we won't know for a while.

OSU vs KSU Moving Average.JPG
 
Nov 8, 2013
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#14
Debating similarities and differences with Kansas State is an interesting topic. You can argue it both ways. See the annual win total chart below and the 10-year moving average for the on-the-field results. I do think Gundy is trying to do things to avoid us declining like KSU did. I do not buy the argument that last season is evidence of a slide. It could be an inflection point, but we won't know for a while.

View attachment 68200
The slope of that purple line in the 1990's is the definition of the "Manhattan Miracle". That is was accomplished without a subsequent probation (or even rumors of the need for one) is incredibly impressive.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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#15
There are definitely some similarities, but I feel like we've deviated a lot from them over the past decade:
1. Our head coach has leveraged his way to a top 10 salary. (Snyder was 39th)
2. Our assistant coaching budget was 25th. (K-State's was 35th)
3. Our cheapest season ticket is $400. (K-State's cheapest is $150)
4. We signed three 4-star prospects this year. (K-State has signed 2 over the past decade)
5. We've spent a small fortune on facilities.

The expectations are definitely higher now in Stillwater than in Manhattan. We've averaged 9.4 wins per year over the past decade. That's the benchmark. Dropping down to 7-8 wins per year won't cut it.
Everything you allude to surrounds how much money being spent on the program, not the overall improvement. In fact if you look at the record of each going head-to-head, I would say the Pokes got the short end based on everything you said above.
 
Sep 23, 2018
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#16
I've had this thought for awhile and I don't know if it is a good or bad thing but Gundy seems to be taking OSU down the Bill Snyder path.

Does this sound familiar:
Hire above average coaches that are loyal and don't have an obsession with moving up the ladder, recruit a bunch of high character 2-3 star kids that love to play football, win 7-8 games a year against average teams while occasionally throwing out an upset, run a highly respectable program and become a legend. Gundy has always had immense respect for Snyder and I really think this is the future of OSU football. I worry that the 9-10 wins seasons are behind us.

Again, I am not saying this is good or bad just an observation. Personally if this is our future I would love to see us throw the kitchen sink at the basketball program and get it to a perennial top 10 program.
Ummm, that may have been true for the last 5-6 seasons, which I'm not totally surprised about, given it was the "twilight" of his career. But let's remember that KSU, at one point, was one of the premier teams of the Big 12, and regularly gave OU a run for its money. They also made some big bowls.

You're just focused on one specific, and *recent*, stretch of Snyder's career to serve your narrative.

For myself, personally, this is where I'm at: I want to see the defense heavily improve in the next few years. I also want to see some real production from Sanders and crew (which they are primed for, given some of the offensive recruits we just reeled in). That being said, if we can't do much better than what just happened this past season, then Gundy needs to go.

(Gundy has needed to go for a long time now, for reasons independent of last season, but that's beside the point of your schpiel.)
 

Philranger

Territorial Marshal
Oct 6, 2010
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#17
Everything you allude to surrounds how much money being spent on the program, not the overall improvement. In fact if you look at the record of each going head-to-head, I would say the Pokes got the short end based on everything you said above.
Since Gundy took over OSU is 6-5 vs. K-State (winning record btw).

Conference Records:
OSU: 72-48 (0.600)
KSU: 53-43 (0.552) (threw out Ron Prince just to be nice).

This even includes Gundy's first season AND throws out Ron Prince (who went 1-1 against OSU).

Just for funsies I decided to ALSO look at how each team did against the Big 12 North for the years it was still around during Gundy's tenure (05-10). In 6 seasons OSU had more wins against the Big 12 North than K-State did. Despite K-State playing a total of 12 more Big 12 North Opponents.

8 Consensus All Americans for Gundy

1 Consensus All American for Snyder during the same time period.

Short end of the stick lol. The purple has been eating your brain.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#18
Everything you allude to surrounds how much money being spent on the program, not the overall improvement. In fact if you look at the record of each going head-to-head, I would say the Pokes got the short end based on everything you said above.
You'll get no argument from me. Coach Snyder was as good as any coach in the nation of optimizing the talent & resources he had in his program. He was a great coach.

The point I was trying to make is that the expectations are higher here because of all of the resources we've poured into the football program. We've had a fairly decent ROI so far. Over the past decade, we've averaged 9.4 wins per year, and we've had 6 seasons with 10 wins or more. Dropping down to 7-8 wins per year wouldn't be an acceptable benchmark anymore.
 
Sep 23, 2018
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#20
And those reasons are?

Did Gundy make fun of Memphis?
Well, really the only reason for me is that he hasn't given one s*** about defense, even when the Big 12 was pivoting towards these "high-powered air raid" spread offenses. He never really exhibited an urgency to develop a defense that could adapt to that change. This has been a running issue basically his entire OSU head coaching career.

Also, his non-dedication to flipping the Bedlam script.

Look, I'm not here to parse out all of the things I've already said in the past, and are there if you want to actually go searching for them. I've accepted Gundy's here for another two to three years at least, and I simply support the players before the coaches.

Keep in mind, I did give him a bit of credit for the Gleeson hire. It was an interesting one that might actually turn out pretty well, compared to "Bombs Away" Yurcich. We shall see.