Fort Worth School District starts recruiting Oklahoma Teachers

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Rack

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#21
Ok lets compare this Borger Texas to Okmulgee OK

Borger salary range with bachelors degree $41,000 -$ 63,568. Plus a 3 year $2500 recruitment bonus for all new hires and a $2500 per year stipend for teaching a High School credit Math course

Population of Borger TX 13,251
Median household income $34,653
Median Family income $40,417
Per Capita Income for Borger $16,869

Median list price per sq ft for a home in Borger TX is $39/sq ft
Median home price in Borger TX is $89,900
14:1 Teacher to student ratio

Okmulgee salary range with bachelors degree $31,600 - $43,108
Population of Okmulgee 12,321
Median household income $24,344
Median Family income $31,015
Per Capita Income $13,633

Median list price per sq ft for a home in Okmulgee OK is $54/sq ft
Median home price in Okmulgee OK is $82,900
15:1 Teacher to student ratio.

Trees
Okmulgee - 700,000
Borger - 1
:derp:;):derp:
Granted neither is the garden spot of America...But if we want to compare least common denominators in terms of "cities" I guess you have a point. Btw, people ought to get paid EXTRA just to live in the Texas and Oklahoma Panhandles...It's a dry dusty land. Kind of like the old days when 29 Palms California recruited on campus for teachers with dreams of high salaries and the beach pre internet maps.
 

OSUCowboy787

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#22
But HUGE property taxes and fast accelerating home prices. Trust me, as a former Dallas resident...it's FAR cheaper to live in Oklahoma (Tulsa) than in Texas cities. I can't overstate what's happening in DFW regarding home prices and competition for existing real estate...
I live in Keller, North of Fort Worth and its crazy how home prices have jumped.(See Toyota, Boeing and maybe Amazon moving here etc) My property taxes are ridiculous and the wife and I know we are bailing on this area as soon as the kids are out of school.
 

Rack

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#23
I live in Keller, North of Fort Worth and its crazy how home prices have jumped.(See Toyota, Boeing and maybe Amazon moving here etc) My property taxes are ridiculous and the wife and I know we are bailing on this area as soon as the kids are out of school.
Funny, my folks used to live in Keller back in the 90's. At least you should have some nice equity.
 

wrenhal

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#24
Perfect. Let the free market decide. If OK can't hire enough teachers then they will have to raise the salary. If they CAN, then they won't. You know, kinda like EVERY OTHER PROFESSION.
True, but I don't think it's always that I clear. I know that one of the events that led to the teacher walk out was when the Bartlesville superintendent went to the school board and told them he had to hire a bunch of unqualified teachers just to keep the schools running.

So the free market says "hey, they found people willing to do the job for the offered salary, there is no problem." But the public school system doesn't experience typical free market forces. If most businesses hire unqualified people at low wages, their product or service will suffer, customers will choose to buy from a competitor, and the business will close. In this case, there is no competitor.
Actually there is competition. In States that allow voucher systems.

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wrenhal

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#25
But HUGE property taxes and fast accelerating home prices. Trust me, as a former Dallas resident...it's FAR cheaper to live in Oklahoma (Tulsa) than in Texas cities. I can't overstate what's happening in DFW regarding home prices and competition for existing real estate...
I live in Keller, North of Fort Worth and its crazy how home prices have jumped.(See Toyota, Boeing and maybe Amazon moving here etc) My property taxes are ridiculous and the wife and I know we are bailing on this area as soon as the kids are out of school.
With original Texans bailing and being replaced by liberal transplants. Unfortunately they are ceding their state.

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Oct 27, 2003
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#26
and no state income tax
But HUGE property taxes and fast accelerating home prices. Trust me, as a former Dallas resident...it's FAR cheaper to live in Oklahoma (Tulsa) than in Texas cities. I can't overstate what's happening in DFW regarding home prices and competition for existing real estate...
Quality of life. You get what you pay for


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Rack

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#27
Quality of life. You get what you pay for


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I think Quality of Life is better in Tulsa than Ft. Worth, so sometime you get more for less...less traffic, more time in Stillwater at Oklahoma State sporting events, more nature, less 100 degree days, a better place to raise a family, four season...but that's just me I guess, after having lived in Dallas for 11 years and being in Tulsa for 20, I really do like Tulsa much better...yeah I miss pro sports, but not the drama, and I miss some of the arts and museums, but I can afford to do far more travel as it cost less to live here.
 
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RPG

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#28
But HUGE property taxes and fast accelerating home prices. Trust me, as a former Dallas resident...it's FAR cheaper to live in Oklahoma (Tulsa) than in Texas cities. I can't overstate what's happening in DFW regarding home prices and competition for existing real estate...
True. Plus, traffic alone is enough to keep me from ever wanting to live in Texas. Life is too short to spend a large part of it behind the wheel of a barely moving vehicle.
 
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#29
I don't know much about those emergency certifications either. Does the new teacher need to have a degree in the subject they will be teaching? Or just any degree? You very well may end up with someone in a high school classroom learning a subject as they teach it (trigonometry, chemistry, economics, etc). Beyond that, I know people with math degrees that would make terrible math teachers.

Also, I would bet that 80% of what you need to know to be a good teacher has to do with general practice of education (classroom management, child psychology, learning theory) and probably 20% has to do with your knowledge of the subject matter.
I would agree with that in elementary school. But once you get into those trig, chem, economics classes I'd take someone who knows the subject matter over someone with an education degree any day.

Side note - in colleges it seems the vast majority of professors are not education majors (unless they are a professor in that college). So if we trust our highest form of education to 'non teachers' why is everyone so up in arms about trusting the lower levels to the same?
 

ScooberJake

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#31
I would agree with that in elementary school. But once you get into those trig, chem, economics classes I'd take someone who knows the subject matter over someone with an education degree any day.

Side note - in colleges it seems the vast majority of professors are not education majors (unless they are a professor in that college). So if we trust our highest form of education to 'non teachers' why is everyone so up in arms about trusting the lower levels to the same?
Well, I don't think you can really compare even high school to college. In college, presumably everyone who is there wants to be there. Everyone taking the class chose to take it. Most of them are spending money or going into debt in order to take the class. There is a built in level of motivation associated with college, and professors expect students as adults to be responsible for their own learning.

At a high school, many students feel forced to be there. To varying degrees many students don't want to be in class, they don't want to learn, they are teenagers (!) and certain amounts of disruptions and distractions are expected. Classroom management, motivation, psychology, and learning theory are far more important than in college. Plus, the expectation by much of the public is that the teachers are responsible for ensuring that the students learn, rather than the responsibility being placed on the students.

Additionally, many if not most college professors are hired for their research and funding prospects, or otherwise for activities outside of class and teaching. And frankly, it often shows, as many college professors are terrible teachers. That is perhaps the biggest problem with our higher education system (after the cost, of course). I don't think we want to take that particular part of college and use it as our blueprint for primary or secondary education. (It probably does make a good way to run AP classes in high school, though.)

Also, I'll say that those more advanced classes where subject matter knowledge is really important are only taught to a subset of students at the end of their public school curriculum. It really represents a very small portion of the total education experience. Furthermore, the educational success required to get there is built on all of those other classes and experiences where have a good educator is far more important than how in-depth the teachers understood the nuances of history, math, or grammar.)
 

Rack

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True. But I think those are pretty rare, right? And while I think vouchers might solve a lot of the problems with the current system, that definitely opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.
As the husband of a private school teacher and a parent of two children who attended one (Btw, another reason to live in Oklahoma, much cheaper private school rates!)...We don't want the state giving people tax money to spend specifically on private school tuition, and IMHO, if they do, I don't think we should even take the vouchers.

Here's why.... the State says... "hey, we gave you a voucher...NOW we have a say in what you teach and don't teach!"...NO thank you State of Oklahoma we are fine on our own, we don't want you to have ANY say in our kids education! NONE...We have seen the results when you do and when you don't! We love the results when yo don't! Keep your money!
 
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StillwaterTownie

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#33
As the husband of a private school teacher and a parent of two children who attended one (Btw, another reason to live in Oklahoma, much cheaper private school rates!)...We don't want the state giving people tax money to spend specifically on private school tuition, and IMHO, if they do, I don't think we should even take the vouchers.

Here's why.... the State says... "hey, we gave you a voucher...NOW we have a say in what you teach and don't teach!"...NO thank you State of Oklahoma we are fine on our own, we don't want you to have ANY say in our kids education! NONE...We have seen the results when you do and when you don't! We love the results when yo don't! Keep your money!
Private schools will always likely be a lot better places to learn than public schools as long as they are free to accept or reject any applicants. So the notion by Betsy DeVos that private schools should be considered as the same as public schools, because they take accept applications from the public is faulty.
 

wrenhal

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#35
True. But I think those are pretty rare, right? And while I think vouchers might solve a lot of the problems with the current system, that definitely opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.
As the husband of a private school teacher and a parent of two children who attended one (Btw, another reason to live in Oklahoma, much cheaper private school rates!)...We don't want the state giving people tax money to spend specifically on private school tuition, and IMHO, if they do, I don't think we should even take the vouchers.

Here's why.... the State says... "hey, we gave you a voucher...NOW we have a say in what you teach and don't teach!"...NO thank you State of Oklahoma we are fine on our own, we don't want you to have ANY say in our kids education! NONE...We have seen the results when you do and when you don't! We love the results when yo don't! Keep your money!
Vouchers for say private school or homeschool use can get into gray areas in regards to control of what's taught. But the ability to cross District boundaries and take your money with you to a different public school system because the one you are at is failing your student is where vouchers are supposed to shine. It eliminates the boundaries of being stuck in one school system just because of your geographic location and being able to use that money to transport your child elsewhere where they can get an education in a school system that works.

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ScooberJake

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#36
Vouchers for say private school or homeschool use can get into gray areas in regards to control of what's taught. But the ability to cross District boundaries and take your money with you to a different public school system because the one you are at is failing your student is where vouchers are supposed to shine. It eliminates the boundaries of being stuck in one school system just because of your geographic location and being able to use that money to transport your child elsewhere where they can get an education in a school system that works.
Yes, I understand what vouchers are and how they work. And another potential benefit I haven't heard much about is that they could raise the profile of the education profession through natural economic incentives as parents have more choice over the school which their portion of the education tax dollars go to.

But my main concern with the voucher system remains. I think a great many children will not realize any benefit from vouchers as it will require extra time/energy/money that their parents may not have or many not choose to spend. Instead they will be left in failing schools with even less money. And I worry that vouchers move us toward an education system where the good schools are all private, requiring tuition beyond the amount of the voucher, effectively eliminating the "opportunity for all" (or more recently, most?) that the public school system has provided for the past 80 years. I see that the current system has significant problems that will require significant changes. But I feel vouchers move us towards an effective privatization of education, which I think is a much bigger problem than the ones we have now.

Ultimately I don't see how the competition of a voucher system can help teachers without also hurting economically disadvantaged students.
 

Rack

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#37
Vouchers for say private school or homeschool use can get into gray areas in regards to control of what's taught. But the ability to cross District boundaries and take your money with you to a different public school system because the one you are at is failing your student is where vouchers are supposed to shine. It eliminates the boundaries of being stuck in one school system just because of your geographic location and being able to use that money to transport your child elsewhere where they can get an education in a school system that works.

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I believe in school choice...If you don't like your public school you can move to another district, apply for a wavier, send your students to private school, or homeschool them...So, we already have VAST school choice without the government putting their noses into it. They obviously do a lousy job and can't even pay teachers appropriately...plus their ability to Administer the system at the State level is faulty at best. "School choice" is just a political talking point...little more when you really dive into the matter you will find we already have it and the voucher program is just another government program that they won't be able to manage correctly...especially as parties change that are in power. Education shouldn't be up to the Political whims of the Government but taken care of by the people. We currently have that ability and choice as parents, many just like to whine and don't take advantage of it.
 

Rack

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#38
Private schools will always likely be a lot better places to learn than public schools as long as they are free to accept or reject any applicants. So the notion by Betsy DeVos that private schools should be considered as the same as public schools, because they take accept applications from the public is faulty.
While private schools certainly can accept and reject students based on a number of reasons, this is NOT the main reason many of them excel. It's a number of factors like the quality of teachers (even sometimes, despite the level of pay), the level of academic demands placed on students, the atmosphere of learning, the principles of faith that are the cornerstone of Western Civilization that many of these school have not abandoned or restricted but embraced. They often teach principles of strength through servanthood, leadership through empathy, the greater good over the individual. Certainly they are not perfect and their differences are many, but I do believe the freedom in which private schools operate is very important in a free society and that the government has almost zero place in them (vouchers or otherwise).
 

wrenhal

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#39
Vouchers for say private school or homeschool use can get into gray areas in regards to control of what's taught. But the ability to cross District boundaries and take your money with you to a different public school system because the one you are at is failing your student is where vouchers are supposed to shine. It eliminates the boundaries of being stuck in one school system just because of your geographic location and being able to use that money to transport your child elsewhere where they can get an education in a school system that works.
Yes, I understand what vouchers are and how they work. And another potential benefit I haven't heard much about is that they could raise the profile of the education profession through natural economic incentives as parents have more choice over the school which their portion of the education tax dollars go to.

But my main concern with the voucher system remains. I think a great many children will not realize any benefit from vouchers as it will require extra time/energy/money that their parents may not have or many not choose to spend. Instead they will be left in failing schools with even less money. And I worry that vouchers move us toward an education system where the good schools are all private, requiring tuition beyond the amount of the voucher, effectively eliminating the "opportunity for all" (or more recently, most?) that the public school system has provided for the past 80 years. I see that the current system has significant problems that will require significant changes. But I feel vouchers move us towards an effective privatization of education, which I think is a much bigger problem than the ones we have now.

Ultimately I don't see how the competition of a voucher system can help teachers without also hurting economically disadvantaged students.
I understand your concerns but there has to be a way to get the failing school districts to 1 either get better 2 consolidate with ones that are better and thus force them to get better or 3 just close.

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Feb 25, 2008
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#40
For the most part parents are the key to a child getting a good education. Two kids can grow up going to all the same schools, have all the same classes, with all the same teachers and come out with a different education because of the involvement of parents. Parents who care enough to check on their kids progress, help (properly - teaching, not doing for the kids) with school work, teach things outside of the class, basically showing interest and having expectations will have better educated kids than those that don't and expect that their taxes and the schools will take care of their kids.

Private schools do better because only kids with parents that care enough to spend the extra money and time go to private schools. And if the parents are spending extra money and time I'd bet they also have higher expectations and help (or pay someone to help) with their kids education.

Sure, there are some school environments that are so bad (but I'd argue it leads back to parents again) that it is difficult to get any education in because of other issues, but for the most part one can learn just fine in public schools.