Dunn is in over his head

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Sep 12, 2008
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Exactly! He built a program just like Gundy. Except the difference is that Saban capitalized on elevating his average talent and used it to go get top talent, because he’s a phenomenal recruiter.


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At one of the all time blue blood football school's. Tom Herman had great classes at Texas as well. Coaching is more important than recruiting.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Name a coach that has elevated his school's historical recruiting to the top-15 by year-over-year-over-year average of over 20 positions. I'm pretty sure that coach doesn't exist.

But, I'll wait.
I mean... we’re talking about Saban here right? The guy who’s won 7 national championships? Why would I compare him to anyone else?

Once again, Gundy was a brilliant program builder, and him lifting us to around 30 every year was a huge accomplishment that we should appreciate. It’s the backsliding down rankings that’s concerning.


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Yeah, that coach doesn’t, and has never existed.

So you guys thinking the next step for OSU is to recruit top-15 classes (equal to our W-L rate) can keep dreaming. It ain’t happening.


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Aug 22, 2006
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247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Name a coach that has elevated his school's historical recruiting to the top-15 by year-over-year-over-year average of over 20 positions. I'm pretty sure that coach doesn't exist.

But, I'll wait.
I mean... we’re talking about Saban here right? The guy who’s won 7 national championships? Why would I compare him to anyone else?

Once again, Gundy was a brilliant program builder, and him lifting us to around 30 every year was a huge accomplishment that we should appreciate. It’s the backsliding down rankings that’s concerning.


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Yeah, that coach doesn’t, and has never existed.

So you guys thinking the next step for OSU is to recruit top-15 classes (equal to our W-L rate) can keep dreaming. It ain’t happening.


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Why do you sell our program short? If we are a top 15 team as you claim why do you think it is impossible to get top 15 talent. I agree that we won't with Gundy but I wouldn't say it will never happen.

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Jan 14, 2006
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After reflection, I don't think Dunn is in over his head. Were there some rough spots? Sure. But considering it was his first year as an OC with no spring ball and the loss of tons of players for various reasons, I think he did ok. The last two games have me optimistic.

Really excited to see what Coach Dunn can do next year.
 
Apr 12, 2020
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247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Name a coach that has elevated his school's historical recruiting to the top-15 by year-over-year-over-year average of over 20 positions. I'm pretty sure that coach doesn't exist.

But, I'll wait.
I mean... we’re talking about Saban here right? The guy who’s won 7 national championships? Why would I compare him to anyone else?

Once again, Gundy was a brilliant program builder, and him lifting us to around 30 every year was a huge accomplishment that we should appreciate. It’s the backsliding down rankings that’s concerning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, that coach doesn’t, and has never existed.

So you guys thinking the next step for OSU is to recruit top-15 classes (equal to our W-L rate) can keep dreaming. It ain’t happening.


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The next step is top 30 since we’re no longer doing that.


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Sep 29, 2011
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Their are honestly other recruiters who can match him, what Kirby has done at UGA is honestly pretty insane. But Saban is the best combination of recruiter and coach. No one utilizes that talent like Saban does. He’s just the best.


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No one untilizes the "top" talent like Saban. There is no telling how Saban would utilize average talent.

Oh wait, his tenure at MSU says how he utilized average talent:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2

That's 34-24-1
Exactly! He built a program just like Gundy. Except the difference is that Saban capitalized on elevating his average talent and used it to go get top talent, because he’s a phenomenal recruiter.


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Elevated? What’s that, new math?


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Aug 19, 2006
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After reflection, I don't think Dunn is in over his head. Were there some rough spots? Sure. But considering it was his first year as an OC with no spring ball and the loss of tons of players for various reasons, I think he did ok. The last two games have me optimistic.

Really excited to see what Coach Dunn can do next year.
I'm with you here. Between the impact of COVID, having to go with a JV offensive line, QB issues due to the Sanders injury, RB issues due to injuries to Hubbard and Brown, I think he deserves a pass this season.

I expect to see him open up the offense next season and mix up the play calling more. If that doesn't happen, then we need to have this talk.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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Why do you sell our program short? If we are a top 15 team as you claim why do you think it is impossible to get top 15 talent. I agree that we won't with Gundy but I wouldn't say it will never happen.

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We are top-15 (actually 12th) in wins for the last 5 years, and last 10 years. There's no debating that. There's also no debating that schools that historically recruit in the 30-40 range do not elevate their recruiting to a consistent top-15. So that leaves us with the following reality. We can probably expect to recruit in the 30-40 range regardless of the coach. We can expect to win in the 10-15 range with a top-notch coach.
 

Birry

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Feb 6, 2007
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It’s really, really, really simple.

Good coaching gets the players to perform as a team up to their (talent) potential. (Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU)

Bad coaching doesn’t get a team or players to play up to their potential. (UT, FSU, Tenn, Mich, aTm, UF)

Talent acquisition (recruiting) is the key to sustained top-5, top-10 success. Without it, you essentially have little or no chance - even with great coaching.

FWIW, I thought any reasonably informed college football fan knew this. Boy, was I wrong.
Gundy has straight-up stated that he doesn't even try to bring in top talent to OSU. So.....if our coach limits our recruiting ceiling by design/effort, that means in your football worldview, our ceiling is also limited to 3* levels of performance.

And you're cool with that?

So......if I understand your sentiments - you believe OSU has no chance at ever improving beyond our current levels of recruiting, wins, conference championships, or chances at the CFP?
 
Nov 6, 2010
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We are top-15 (actually 12th) in wins for the last 5 years, and last 10 years. There's no debating that. There's also no debating that schools that historically recruit in the 30-40 range do not elevate their recruiting to a consistent top-15. So that leaves us with the following reality. We can probably expect to recruit in the 30-40 range regardless of the coach. We can expect to win in the 10-15 range with a top-notch coach.
I'd be curious to see recruiting rankings compared to attendance numbers for all the schools. I bet that correlates way better than it does to winning percentage.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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It's interesting to see what happened at Clemson after they hired Dabo Swinney. His impact started as an assistant. Their last recruiting class prior to hiring him was ranked 43rd in the country. By his 2nd season as their recruiting coordinator, they were consistently signing top 20 classes. When they elevated him to head coach, they had only finished ranked in the top 20 once in the previous 15 years. They weren't really a top 25 program, and they certainly weren't a blue blood.

The biggest difference between Swinney & Gundy is recruiting ability. We'll never be able to sign top 5 classes like a blue blood program, but we need to find a way to sign top 25 classes like other top 25 programs. I don't believe that this is an unrealistic expectation, because Gundy & Miles both did it multiple times before our facilities were even built.

We can't keep signing the same level of talent and expect a different result. Something is going to have to change if we want to go further than we've been in the past.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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It’s really, really, really simple.

Good coaching gets the players to perform as a team up to their (talent) potential. (Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU)

Bad coaching doesn’t get a team or players to play up to their potential. (UT, FSU, Tenn, Mich, aTm, UF)

Talent acquisition (recruiting) is the key to sustained top-5, top-10 success. Without it, you essentially have little or no chance - even with great coaching.

FWIW, I thought any reasonably informed college football fan knew this. Boy, was I wrong.
Gundy has straight-up stated that he doesn't even try to bring in top talent to OSU. So.....if our coach limits our recruiting ceiling by design/effort, that means in your football worldview, our ceiling is also limited to 3* levels of performance.

And you're cool with that?

So......if I understand your sentiments - you believe OSU has no chance at ever improving beyond our current levels of recruiting, wins, conference championships, or chances at the CFP?
That’s not what Gundy says.

Gundy says he doesn’t try to recruit talent that he believes we don’t have a chance at signing. He never said he's not interested in top talent. He's said he's only interested in pursuing players that show an interest in OSU. His approach does not limit our ceiling. If there was 5 5-stars that showed genuine interest in OSU, he'd be all over them. When you have a limited budget (5th out of 8 public B12 institutions), you have to be realistic about whom you pursue. If Gundy pursued only top talent, he'd probably wind up with bottom of the barrel talent.

As for the rest, No, that’s not what I believe.


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Sep 29, 2011
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It's interesting to see what happened at Clemson after they hired Dabo Swinney. His impact started as an assistant. Their last recruiting class prior to hiring him was ranked 43rd in the country. By his 2nd season as their recruiting coordinator, they were consistently signing top 20 classes. When they elevated him to head coach, they had only finished ranked in the top 20 once in the previous 15 years. They weren't really a top 25 program, and they certainly weren't a blue blood.

The biggest difference between Swinney & Gundy is recruiting ability. We'll never be able to sign top 5 classes like a blue blood program, but we need to find a way to sign top 25 classes like other top 25 programs. I don't believe that this is an unrealistic expectation, because Gundy & Miles both did it multiple times before our facilities were even built.

We can't keep signing the same level of talent and expect a different result. Something is going to have to change if we want to go further than we've been in the past.
FWIW, player evaluations and therefore recruiting rankings before about 2010 are somewhat suspect in that they were in many cases not standardized across the country. Before 2005 they were highly suspect, and before 2000 next to useless. Certainly Dabo has been a boon to both recruiting and the overall success at Clemson. But make no mistake, Clemson has always had a lot to choose from in the Carolinas and Georgia.
 

OSU79

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Oct 22, 2009
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After reflection, I don't think Dunn is in over his head. Were there some rough spots? Sure. But considering it was his first year as an OC with no spring ball and the loss of tons of players for various reasons, I think he did ok. The last two games have me optimistic.

Really excited to see what Coach Dunn can do next year.
WHO?


Why you bringing this up in the Gundy/Saban thread?
 
Sep 12, 2013
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In 2018 Alabama spent $2,344,057 on football recruiting, we spent $715,492. Source: Recruiting Budgets for 2018. Interesting that ohio state was #20. Does increasing the budget allow you to take more chances on higher rated players? You probably don't if you are tosu, and you probably do if you are OSU.

Interesting in this article that 99 football players received the equivalent of more than $55K in aid, Alabama's Football Budget