Dunn is in over his head

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Sep 29, 2011
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Well, he does have to overcome 10 straight top-3 recruiting classes that turned into dozens and dozens of high draft picks.
Yep. Dudes like playing for a coach with cajones. Gundy could teach him how to bring in those top-40 classes so he can soar to Cheez-It Bowls heights!
Saban (without 7 natties) would nail down top-40 classes in Stilly too.


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For sure he would but they would be somewhere around 15th and he would try to improve or he would move where he could improve. That's why he is the best college football coach of a generation. He doesn't settle for anything but the best and he gets it out of his players.

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No doubt he’s a great coach. But let’s not necessarily crown him the best “coach” ever since he’s essentially given the best players ever and granted unlimited financial resources. By many of you Gundy bashers standards, Saban would be a massive failure if he didn’t have at least 3 NCs.

BTW, if you’re saying Saban could recruit around 15 in Stillwater, you’re delusional. He wasn’t some king of recruiting at Toledo or MSU where his results were kinda average.


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You're blind

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Not blind. Saban is clearly the best coach of the last 15 years to coach at one of the following schools:

Bama
LSU
UF
UGA
Clemson
FSU
Michigan
tOSU
OU
UT
USC
aTm
PSU
Tenn

These schools and their coaches play with a different set of circumstances than the rest of college football. To lump the entire 130ish FBS teams altogether is the epitome of blind.


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Birry

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Feb 6, 2007
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No doubt he’s a great coach. But let’s not necessarily crown him the best “coach” ever since he’s essentially given the best players ever and granted unlimited financial resources. By many of you Gundy bashers standards, Saban would be a massive failure if he didn’t have at least 3 NCs.

BTW, if you’re saying Saban could recruit around 15 in Stillwater, you’re delusional. He wasn’t some king of recruiting at Toledo or MSU where his results were kinda average.
I was at the Independence Bowl when we beat them pre-Saban. They looked lost and not good. Reminded me of an inept Texas team. Maybe had some good players by default of being a big school, but they were poorly coached and not motivated. Saban comes in, and the rest is history.

I've noticed that you seem to believe that,
1. Success is the direct result of across-the-board talent (from recruiting)
2. Recruiting (rankings) is locked for various schools, and can't be changed
3. Coaches have minimal impact on success

The above assumptions on your part lead you to some really weird conclusions.

To challenge that, I'd like to know how Alabama pulls in a bunch of 4* guys and dominates the entire NCAA landscape but Texas pulls in a bunch of 4* guys and looks mediocre for a decade? How do you justify the vast difference in those two schools' performance levels given your apparent assumptions?
 
Nov 6, 2010
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No doubt he’s a great coach. But let’s not necessarily crown him the best “coach” ever since he’s essentially given the best players ever and granted unlimited financial resources. By many of you Gundy bashers standards, Saban would be a massive failure if he didn’t have at least 3 NCs.

BTW, if you’re saying Saban could recruit around 15 in Stillwater, you’re delusional. He wasn’t some king of recruiting at Toledo or MSU where his results were kinda average.


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And don't forget his stint in the NFL.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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What do you consider a generation? I think 20 years is a pretty good range for a generation. I want to be clear that I am not a Saban fan or anything close to that but to say he isn't the best college football coach of this generation is really not being aware of your surroundings. While they may have different circumstances if these coaches aren't trying to compete at and for the biggest prizes they're essentially wasting the schools and fans time and money. I fully realize that each team has its goals and likely most of them will never win a national championship to say that a guy that has won over 30% of the national championships in his sport over the last 20 years isn't the best of this generation please let me know who is better.
 
Sep 29, 2011
2,217
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Breckenridge, CO
No doubt he’s a great coach. But let’s not necessarily crown him the best “coach” ever since he’s essentially given the best players ever and granted unlimited financial resources. By many of you Gundy bashers standards, Saban would be a massive failure if he didn’t have at least 3 NCs.

BTW, if you’re saying Saban could recruit around 15 in Stillwater, you’re delusional. He wasn’t some king of recruiting at Toledo or MSU where his results were kinda average.
I was at the Independence Bowl when we beat them pre-Saban. They looked lost and not good. Reminded me of an inept Texas team. Maybe had some good players by default of being a big school, but they were poorly coached and not motivated. Saban comes in, and the rest is history.

I've noticed that you seem to believe that,
1. Success is the direct result of across-the-board talent (from recruiting)
2. Recruiting (rankings) is locked for various schools, and can't be changed
3. Coaches have minimal impact on success

The above assumptions on your part lead you to some really weird conclusions.

To challenge that, I'd like to know how Alabama pulls in a bunch of 4* guys and dominates the entire NCAA landscape but Texas pulls in a bunch of 4* guys and looks mediocre for a decade? How do you justify the vast difference in those two schools' performance levels given your apparent assumptions?
It’s really, really, really simple.

Good coaching gets the players to perform as a team up to their (talent) potential. (Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU)

Bad coaching doesn’t get a team or players to play up to their potential. (UT, FSU, Tenn, Mich, aTm, UF)

Talent acquisition (recruiting) is the key to sustained top-5, top-10 success. Without it, you essentially have little or no chance - even with great coaching.

FWIW, I thought any reasonably informed college football fan knew this. Boy, was I wrong.


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Sep 29, 2011
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Breckenridge, CO
What do you consider a generation? I think 20 years is a pretty good range for a generation. I want to be clear that I am not a Saban fan or anything close to that but to say he isn't the best college football coach of this generation is really not being aware of your surroundings. While they may have different circumstances if these coaches aren't trying to compete at and for the biggest prizes they're essentially wasting the schools and fans time and money. I fully realize that each team has its goals and likely most of them will never win a national championship to say that a guy that has won over 30% of the national championships in his sport over the last 20 years isn't the best of this generation please let me know who is better.
Saban is the best coach of a generation from a select set of “privileged” schools. To compare his coaching to Bill Snyder based on raw accomplishments is beyond ridiculous.

That’s like comparing the financial accomplishments a born billionaire with that of a self-made multi-millionaire.


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Aug 22, 2006
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Saban is the best coach of a generation from a select set of “privileged” schools. To compare his coaching to Bill Snyder based on raw accomplishments is beyond ridiculous.

That’s like comparing the financial accomplishments a born billionaire with that of a self-made multi-millionaire.


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But he didn't start out at Alabama with the best team in the country, He is a self made millionaire because he is an extremely good coach and does everything he can to be successful. Your analogy doesn't fit and you have to understand that if Saban was in the same situation as Bill Snyder he would have moved on to another school like LSU then to Alabama to win National Championships because that is what he is driven to do, he expects to be the best so he will go to the situation that will make it possible. Let's not derail this any more, but the only accomplishments that matter to Nick Saban are National Championships and because of that he will be remembered as the best college coach of his generation without a doubt.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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But he didn't start out at Alabama with the best team in the country, He is a self made millionaire because he is an extremely good coach and does everything he can to be successful. Your analogy doesn't fit and you have to understand that if Saban was in the same situation as Bill Snyder he would have moved on to another school like LSU then to Alabama to win National Championships because that is what he is driven to do, he expects to be the best so he will go to the situation that will make it possible. Let's not derail this any more, but the only accomplishments that matter to Nick Saban are National Championships and because of that he will be remembered as the best college coach of his generation without a doubt.
Hardly self-made at Alabama. They had perirenal top-15 recruiting classes just prior to Saban. Just a little winning at a school with multiple NC's and unlimited resources brought in better recruits. Year after year of top-5 recruits followed.

But you're inadvertently supporting my argument about Gundy. Saban did move on because he wanted to achieve better things. He knew he coudn't win it all at MSU, so he accepted a job at LSU. He knew he coudn't win it all consistently at LSU, si he moved to the NFL. He knew he coudn't win in the NFL so he moved to Alabama.

If Gundy was driven by wanting to win NC's, I'm sure he would have moved on from OSU. Instead, he want's to bring his alma mater as much success as he can help it achieve. In a way, Saban is just a whore - a very good whore. Gundy on the other wants as much for his school as he does for his individual self.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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But he didn't start out at Alabama with the best team in the country, He is a self made millionaire because he is an extremely good coach and does everything he can to be successful. Your analogy doesn't fit and you have to understand that if Saban was in the same situation as Bill Snyder he would have moved on to another school like LSU then to Alabama to win National Championships because that is what he is driven to do, he expects to be the best so he will go to the situation that will make it possible. Let's not derail this any more, but the only accomplishments that matter to Nick Saban are National Championships and because of that he will be remembered as the best college coach of his generation without a doubt.
Hardly self-made at Alabama. They had perirenal top-15 recruiting classes just prior to Saban. Just a little winning at a school with multiple NC's and unlimited resources brought in better recruits. Year after year of top-5 recruits followed.

But you're inadvertently supporting my argument about Gundy. Saban did move on because he wanted to achieve better things. He knew he coudn't win it all at MSU, so he accepted a job at LSU. He knew he coudn't win it all consistently at LSU, si he moved to the NFL. He knew he coudn't win in the NFL so he moved to Alabama.

If Gundy was driven by wanting to win NC's, I'm sure he would have moved on from OSU. Instead, he want's to bring his alma mater as much success as he can help it achieve. In a way, Saban is just a whore - a very good whore. Gundy on the other wants as much for his school as he does for his individual self.
And you're proving everyone else's point that Gundy has achieved as much as he ever will.

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Apr 12, 2020
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Stillwater
Well, he does have to overcome 10 straight top-3 recruiting classes that turned into dozens and dozens of high draft picks.
Yep. Dudes like playing for a coach with cajones. Gundy could teach him how to bring in those top-40 classes so he can soar to Cheez-It Bowls heights!
Saban (without 7 natties) would nail down top-40 classes in Stilly too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For sure he would but they would be somewhere around 15th and he would try to improve or he would move where he could improve. That's why he is the best college football coach of a generation. He doesn't settle for anything but the best and he gets it out of his players.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
No doubt he’s a great coach. But let’s not necessarily crown him the best “coach” ever since he’s essentially given the best players ever and granted unlimited financial resources. By many of you Gundy bashers standards, Saban would be a massive failure if he didn’t have at least 3 NCs.

BTW, if you’re saying Saban could recruit around 15 in Stillwater, you’re delusional. He wasn’t some king of recruiting at Toledo or MSU where his results were kinda average.


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247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Nov 6, 2010
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I guess it depends on how much weight you give to recruiting as a criteria for evaluating coaches. He is pretty clearly the best recruiter in a generation.
 
Apr 12, 2020
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Stillwater
What do you consider a generation? I think 20 years is a pretty good range for a generation. I want to be clear that I am not a Saban fan or anything close to that but to say he isn't the best college football coach of this generation is really not being aware of your surroundings. While they may have different circumstances if these coaches aren't trying to compete at and for the biggest prizes they're essentially wasting the schools and fans time and money. I fully realize that each team has its goals and likely most of them will never win a national championship to say that a guy that has won over 30% of the national championships in his sport over the last 20 years isn't the best of this generation please let me know who is better.
Saban is the best coach of a generation from a select set of “privileged” schools. To compare his coaching to Bill Snyder based on raw accomplishments is beyond ridiculous.

That’s like comparing the financial accomplishments a born billionaire with that of a self-made multi-millionaire.


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Sep 29, 2011
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Breckenridge, CO
247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Name a coach that has elevated his school's historical recruiting to the top-15 by year-over-year-over-year average of over 20 positions. I'm pretty sure that coach doesn't exist.

But, I'll wait.
 
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Apr 12, 2020
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Stillwater
I guess it depends on how much weight you give to recruiting as a criteria for evaluating coaches. He is pretty clearly the best recruiter in a generation.
Their are honestly other recruiters who can match him, what Kirby has done at UGA is honestly pretty insane. But Saban is the best combination of recruiter and coach. No one utilizes that talent like Saban does. He’s just the best.


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Sep 29, 2011
2,217
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Breckenridge, CO
I guess it depends on how much weight you give to recruiting as a criteria for evaluating coaches. He is pretty clearly the best recruiter in a generation.
Sorry, teachum. Saban could get a top-10 class without lifting a finger.

All one has to do is go look at the team recruiting rankings for each of the last 15 years. Good recruiting is by and large a function of the school, certainly not the coach, and in many cases, not the W-L record.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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Breckenridge, CO
Their are honestly other recruiters who can match him, what Kirby has done at UGA is honestly pretty insane. But Saban is the best combination of recruiter and coach. No one utilizes that talent like Saban does. He’s just the best.


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No one untilizes the "top" talent like Saban. There is no telling how Saban would utilize average talent.

Oh wait, his tenure at MSU says how he utilized average talent:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2

That's 34-24-1
 
Apr 12, 2020
495
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Stillwater
247’s recruiting rankings only begin in 1999 (Saban’s final year at MSU) and Michigan State had the #1 class in the Big 10 that year.

Here’s an article that includes a lot of evidence for his passion for recruiting all the way back in the 90s. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...gan-state-spartans-leaders-soured/3004832001/

Overall Saban’s results in his years at MSU were just like Gundy’s. But I think Saban’s prowess in recruiting would have given that program a staying power after a year like our 2011 for them that Gundy just wouldn’t of matched.

He’s also facing programs with equally infinite resources and he has to fight for those top players. Era matters, but there is a very real chance he’s the GOAT, he’s clearly on the Mount Rushmore.

It’s absolutely not a fair standard to hold Gundy to what Saban could do in Stillwater. But it’s straight up asinine to think Saban couldn’t bring in a top 15 class here. I really hope that Saban does consider a new project as he gets older, and goes and builds a program. Even though he didn’t go to school there, he did grow up 20 miles from Morgantown. Would be fun to see how high he could get WVU. He’d certainly lock down a top 15 class.


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Name a coach that has elevated his school's historical recruiting to the top-15 by year-over-year-over-year average of over 20 positions. I'm pretty sure that coach doesn't exist.

But, I'll wait.
I mean... we’re talking about Saban here right? The guy who’s won 7 national championships? Why would I compare him to anyone else?

Once again, Gundy was a brilliant program builder, and him lifting us to around 30 every year was a huge accomplishment that we should appreciate. It’s the backsliding down rankings that’s concerning.


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Apr 12, 2020
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Stillwater
Their are honestly other recruiters who can match him, what Kirby has done at UGA is honestly pretty insane. But Saban is the best combination of recruiter and coach. No one utilizes that talent like Saban does. He’s just the best.


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No one untilizes the "top" talent like Saban. There is no telling how Saban would utilize average talent.

Oh wait, his tenure at MSU says how he utilized average talent:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2

That's 34-24-1
Exactly! He built a program just like Gundy. Except the difference is that Saban capitalized on elevating his average talent and used it to go get top talent, because he’s a phenomenal recruiter.


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