Chargers' Russell Okung raises fist during national anthem

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okstate987

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#62
you sir, are flat out lying. You do this every single time..... I have done nothing of the sort.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to let you (or others) start the bashing and expect me to stay on the sideline.

IN FACT, I often let the crap by you and a couple of others go by the first time. I do not start it.

I do not get offended by others opinions - only by their personal attacks. Like you started this one - yet again.

Now, can we get back to the discussion?
You don't know how to differentiate what is a personal attack and what isn't. Its funny how my original two posts addressed no one, yet you got butthurt and took them personal anyway. Then you get rude, but try to play the victim card at the same time. Sorry, you look as dumb as a leftist does when they do it.

There are several issues with what you posted:
1) 4% of the killings of police on black unarmed men still means that a black unarmed man is 5 times more likely to be killed by police, that statistic changes nothing.
2) Blacks are more likely to be convicted of crimes, and up to 9x more likely to be found guilty of murder than their peers , 12x more likely to be convicted than their peers for drug offenses, and 3.5x times more likely than their peers to be convicted of sexual assault (https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf). This skews data regarding crime, since those three categories make up a very large portion of convictions.
3) When convicted, blacks serve on average between 18-20% longer sentences than whites when committing the same crime (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...te-person-study-finds/?utm_term=.9b2021ee6fe4)
4) Drug use between black and whites are roughly the same, yet far more minorities are in prison for drug related charges (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...etween-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/)
5) Two lone studies do not make a trend. I can find two studies that show eating potatoes causes cancer, and the lions share of the research says otherwise. The same is the case here.
6) Not complying should not be lethal. As other posters have noted, this appears to be a uniquely American problem and we lag far behind other developed countries in police related deaths.

Institutional racism is a thing, and needs to be addressed. Even Rand Paul has talked about it being a problem: http://fortune.com/2016/01/29/rand-paul-race-criminal-justice-republican-debate/. Its time to wake up.
 

okstate987

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#63
Your stats would be interesting... if true. But they are not. In 2017, 46.3% of deaths by police shooting were white, and 22.5% black. In the first 6-months of 2018 (until June 20th), 41% were white and 20% black.

What it does show is the war on men as 95.2% of victims were males! Now I get it, the players are kneeling for men. And I have now learned from another poster that they are showing respect. So men respecting men.
Where is your source for those stats? You should link it. You do realize that even using your unverified/unreliable stats, blacks would still be 2.5 times more likely to die by police shooting, right? They only make up 1/5 of the population whites do.

There is a bias in the criminal justice system against men, but that is not what we are discussing here.
 

okstate987

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#64
I was a cop for a couple years, and I hate authoritarian types. I don't even like cops in general. I think there are way too many authoritarian types in this state, who claim to be proponents of the Constitution, but in reality they are not; they're fake. But the protest is stupid, it's just as stupid as the cop lip sync videos. For one, it's at a private place of employment. The 1A does not apply. Two, they probably don't even understand what they are protesting, and if they do, the message is garbled since everyone interprets it as unpatriotic and anti-military. Three, they have no clue how use of force works. Police can kill unarmed people and it be completely justified if the circumstances are right. Same thing for lesser uses of force; it all depends on the situation and court precedents. Four, you can't trust anything the media says. Without having all the information related to the case, you're shooting your mouth off and forming uninformed opinions. Five, a lot of these minorities, especially blacks from north Tulsa in my experience, can't get it through their heads that the fight should occur in the courtroom, not in the street. Even if the cop is in the wrong, only bad can happen to you if you resist or fight. Don't consent to searches, don't answer incriminating questions, keep your mouth shut. Don't do anything stupid in general. But the problem is, these people are stupid, so they do stupid things. Once in a while a cop screws up. The vast majority of the time, usually not though.
That said, for most cops at the state and local levels, we need higher standards. The nepotism, poor physical condition, low pay (except for a select few agencies), poor or lack of training. The court system is even worse. We have too many laws and too many prosecutors that need to be in prison. We're #1 in the nation in incarceration rate for both men and women. The prison industrial complex is not a conspiracy theory, it's reality. Needs to end. Hopefully none of you are voting for Tim Harris for senator. He sent multiple innocent people to prison for decades and several have been exonerated through DNA lately. He should be in prison himself. This prosecutorial immunity BS needs to be done away with. Instead of carefully examining each case, everyone is just a number, they get convicted because of poor counsel, prosecutor/detective misconduct, whatever, and they end up as another notch on the DA's belt. These people have way too much power and it's scary. It's not as hard as you think to end up in a very scary situation, even if you've done your best to follow the law to a T your whole life.

Anyway, that is my rant on the legal system. It's a disaster, if you didn't already know that.

As far as the NFL players go, they all need to attend a use of force refresher, and go through live scenarios at a police dept or academy. They can either watch or be role players, or act as the officers. After going through that, their opinions would change without a doubt. They'd all end up dead in every scenario and/or violating someone's rights. After seeing how easy it is to get shot, I think they'd be eating some humble pie.

Fixing or improving this issue starts in the communities. It's on them way more than patrol officers.

I probably pissed off everyone on both sides of this issue, but oh well. I have a lot more experience and insight regarding this topic than most people.
Thanks for sharing, I appreciate a nuanced view of a complex and controversial issue. The legal system is a mess and does not prosecute fairly. If you have money, you are more likely to have your charges dropped or reduced. This also happens more to minorities than whites unfortunately. Ending the drug war would go a long way in reducing the number of incarcerated blacks and would reduce the amount of random folks getting pulled over to look for drugs/other offenses.

To start off, I think that all subsidies, foreign and domestic should end. I think kneeling is a 1A issue, as any entity that is that heavily subsidized should be held to a different standard than a regular business in regard to freedom of speech/expression. Its the same thing with the bailouts. If you accept large amounts of taxpayer's funds, you don't get to operate like you would have. Those banks should have been trust busted if they were "too big to fail" or just left to fail. It would have been rough, but I think we would be better off in the long run.

The thing is, Police are supposed to be professionals, and as you said, need more training or to be trained in de-escalation in general. I would gladly pay them more if that were to occur. I think it is a bit much to expect a random citizen to be better at those strategies than a supposed professional IMO.
 
Jul 20, 2018
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#65
No, you show me how you know he or any other protester has been coddled their whole life. Show me proof that you definitively know these men, their families, and their friends don't have any cause to want change for black communities... The black community has been asking and protesting for change in various forms for a long time while no one gave a shit. And then, one particular protest got everyone's attention and now you demand that they protest back into some manner that's inconsequential to you so you don't have to hear it. I don't necessarily like the protest either, but I was tought to try to walk in another man's shoes.
So, what you're saying is you got nuthin'. That's what I thought.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#66
Where is your source for those stats? You should link it. You do realize that even using your unverified/unreliable stats, blacks would still be 2.5 times more likely to die by police shooting, right? They only make up 1/5 of the population whites do.

There is a bias in the criminal justice system against men, but that is not what we are discussing here.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Lower income people commit more crimes. Unfortunately, blacks have a much higher percentage of population of lower income and poverty. When a real statistican controls for an extremely important variable of income and neighborhood then race disparities greatly decrease.

In fact, the DOJ’s own 2012-13 study showed the almost the same percentage of a particular race that committed a violent crime (24%) was the same percentage of a particular race that was shot by police (26%).

Simply put: I would never argue that all police officers don’t have bias. But when important variables are used, the racial disparities are better understood. And if more people were educated on fact that police are going to where the crime is and that is why more negative police actions are occurring there... and it is not a racial motivation... then our country may not feel so divided and actually commit to items to solve issues rather than amplify false items.
 
Oct 27, 2003
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#67
I’d venture that 99% of police shootings would be prevented if the victims would recognize the authority of the police and follow their commands. Most of the highly published shootings fall in this category.

I for one won’t protest for those people. However I won’t judge people for standing up for the other 1%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

okstate987

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#68
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Lower income people commit more crimes. Unfortunately, blacks have a much higher percentage of population of lower income and poverty. When a real statistican controls for an extremely important variable of income and neighborhood then race disparities greatly decrease.

In fact, the DOJ’s own 2012-13 study showed the almost the same percentage of a particular race that committed a violent crime (24%) was the same percentage of a particular race that was shot by police (26%).

Simply put: I would never argue that all police officers don’t have bias. But when important variables are used, the racial disparities are better understood. And if more people were educated on fact that police are going to where the crime is and that is why more negative police actions are occurring there... and it is not a racial motivation... then our country may not feel so divided and actually commit to items to solve issues rather than amplify false items.
Even when controlling for poverty, there is still a significant disparity. At a certain point, you are going to have to come to grips with this very real issue.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

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#69
You don't know how to differentiate what is a personal attack and what isn't. Its funny how my original two posts addressed no one, yet you got butthurt and took them personal anyway. Then you get rude, but try to play the victim card at the same time. Sorry, you look as dumb as a leftist does when they do it.

.
yep... there you go again... you just can't make a post without criticizing others.

good lord
 
Sep 13, 2013
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#70
Isn't this the same type of diatribe that is responsible for recently closing the politics portion of another popular forum? Personally, I can't stand watching Cowboys in name only (CINO)'s eating our own. I certainly understand how this could hurt recruiting. Pasting our own personal biases on current and former players is just indefensible imho.
 

GodsPeace

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#71
There is the biggest problem. Why don't we actually know what their point is?

I don't think anyone really has an issue with a peaceful protest. But they are protesting during their hours of work at their place of employment. And even that's ok if the owner of the business is ok with it.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone has to respect that choice, afterall they are free to protest as well.

And when you appear to disrespect something that represents so much to so many people don't be surprised at the backlash.

View attachment 63242

View attachment 63243

These are a few reasons why I choose not to show dishonor to our Flag. It's a dishonor to those who have paid the ultimate price to give you the very right to a peaceful protest.

They have have failed to get their message out or to draw any support to their message, what ever it is. I do wonder what they did individually or as a group in their off season on their own time to promote their message or do something about the injustices they believe to exist? I'm sure some do great work, but I suspect many of them gave it little thought.

While their motivation may be honorable, their methods to express their message for me are less than honorable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaMxB8lcaug



"Our Flag was still there"​
We know what they are protesting for, but the talking heads won't have the discussion because pitting people's patriotism/or lack thereof against the right to peaceful protest gets the headlines. Brutality against minorities is a much harder discussion for both sides, imo. Therefore, we get the distracting narrative instead.
 

Cimarron

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#72
We know what they are protesting for, but the talking heads won't have the discussion because pitting people's patriotism/or lack thereof against the right to peaceful protest gets the headlines. Brutality against minorities is a much harder discussion for both sides, imo. Therefore, we get the distracting narrative instead.
That's the larger problem, a distracting narrative.

Statement from Eric Reid regarding a discussion he and Kaepernick had.

We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.

After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.


But here is Kaepernicks earlier comment (and lets not mention him calling cops pigs).

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL.com.

So, which is it?
 

GodsPeace

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#73
That's the larger problem, a distracting narrative.

Statement from Eric Reid regarding a discussion he and Kaepernick had.

We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.

After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

But here is Kaepernicks earlier comment (and lets not mention him calling cops pigs).

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL.com.

So, which is it?
Horrible messenger IMO, and it makes it easy to distract the narrative. I think it is a really important discussion to have. Independent of racial violence, I'm worried about the over militarization of police. The point of the right to have guns to create a last line of defense against tyranny, but back in the day both sides had comparable weapons.

IDK.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#74
The thing is, Police are supposed to be professionals, and as you said, need more training or to be trained in de-escalation in general. I would gladly pay them more if that were to occur. I think it is a bit much to expect a random citizen to be better at those strategies than a supposed professional IMO.
It's a two way street. Yes, police are supposed to be in good shape, they're supposed to be proficient at handling ruffians, they're supposed to be proficient at downplaying situations and avoiding getting physical. However, it's like the couple sentences where I described stereotypical residents of North Tulsa. They're idiots. They don't think logically, they really can't even speak English, and they resort to violence impulsively. They don't act like civilized human beings. There's people like that in all major cities. You can't reason with them, therefore it is often going to require force. I was a seasonal law enforcement park ranger for the National Park Service. During the off season I worked armed security in Tulsa. I dealt with plenty of stupid people in the National Park. However, I almost never had to fight anyone or use force at all. On my first performance evaluation, I received high marks for defusing situations and avoiding conflict with difficult people, that quote, would be very difficult for seasoned veterans to handle. On the other hand, I was getting into at least one fight per week in north Tulsa doing security. They simply will not listen and you have no choice but to use force. It's a different breed of people and de-escalation/verbal judo crap doesn't work.
If I was the best at talking people down and avoiding conflict out of about 35-40 cops, and I used the same techniques in north Tulsa and they didn't work, no verbal judo training in the world is going to work. Using force is not pretty and looks messy; that is just reality, even if you are some martial arts expert. I knocked the crap out of several fine citizens of north Tulsa, and the client for the security company didn't like it, but it was effective. They never came back to steal anything or cause trouble as long as I was on duty and when a couple of them saw me some time later in a different part of town they about crapped their pants. With some folks, that's just what it takes to get the message across. And even though the client b1tched about it at times, I can say with 100% certainty that every use of force I did was legal and justified. For the problems I dealt with, I'd say it was even better than arresting them and putting them in the legal system. It doesn't get backlogged any more than it already is, and they're thinking "if I go back to that store and steal something, I'm gonna get tackled into the concrete and it's gonna hurt like hell, I'm out on that". That is how simple minded these people are, and you have to appeal to that.

On the other hand, the academy I went through and the standards I was held to were light years higher than what cops are in Oklahoma (although it had it's issues too). I am appalled by some of the things I read and my deputy friend tells me. Things I would've been fired for get laughed off or swept under the rug here. OHP is apparently trained on how to piss everyone off and promote the worst public relations possible. CLEET is about to do away with the driving training. Lol. Can you imagine, LEOs with no driving training. They already kill innocent bystanders WITH driving training. That's just begging for a lawsuit.

Which brings up my last point before I forget. That is maybe the biggest reason why we aren't getting quality recruits in this state. And it's the biggest reason why I have no desire to be in law enforcement again. If you shoot someone (or even a lesser use of force), there's no telling what will happen. Especially with the climate nowadays, you could be charged with a crime and be in the fight for your life. Whether it was justified or not. All it takes is an overzealous prosecutor and uninformed public and media. And just a civil suit for excessive force or civil rights violations. What if the agency doesn't back you up? It's happened many times. Even if you're exonerated, you're branded for life. The general public will always see you as a jack booted thug. For $20/hr, or really any amount of money, is that worth it? No freaking way. Physical risks used to be the real danger in being a cop. Now it's legal risks, which I think is worse.

Overall I don't trust cops and I don't like them because there are so many out there that suck at doing their job. But I do respect the fact that they do the job despite what I said in the last paragraph. I just think most cops don't even acknowledge or realize those risks. If they did, especially early on, they would've been smart enough to get out of it.
 
May 21, 2007
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On the other hand, the academy I went through and the standards I was held to were light years higher than what cops are in Oklahoma (although it had it's issues too).
I think law enforcement in general should look at itself first and the stats later. If they can't hold themselves accountable and themselves to a higher standard, why would they expect the public to hold them in high regards.
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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#76
Horrible messenger IMO, and it makes it easy to distract the narrative. I think it is a really important discussion to have. Independent of racial violence, I'm worried about the over militarization of police. The point of the right to have guns to create a last line of defense against tyranny, but back in the day both sides had comparable weapons.

IDK.
Yes, and that's their issue. They don't have a coherent unified message and in trying to unify people to a cause they used a medium which many people find offensive and dis-respectful to the country and loved ones who have paid the ultimate price in this country.

Do you think police are more or less accountable for their criminal actions today than at any point in this countries history? I'm not sure if there are any statistics or research to give us an answer. I think it's probably true though that they are more accountable today.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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Owasso
#77
I think law enforcement in general should look at itself first and the stats later. If they can't hold themselves accountable and themselves to a higher standard, why would they expect the public to hold them in high regards.
I can't disagree with that. Overall I do think they get a slightly unfair shake with the media and general public due to ignorance, but they are certainly not helping their case. Such as the female game warden getting gang banged by OHP officers, while all of them were drunk, at the "training" camp a few years ago, which gets even more comical because it was training to rappel out of helicopters into marijuana fields. Seriously? I can't even keep a straight face reading that, and I can't decide if it's more hilarious or ridiculous and embarrassing. And the icing on the cake, that female game warden STILL has a job, and ended up on the cover of a freaking magazine other than playboy. Unbelievable. That said, when I was working for NPS, they were VERY lenient with female officers in all aspects, so who knows if she would've been fired from that agency. Definitely should have.
Then you've got the high speed chases. Whatever you do, do not evade police in Oklahoma. They will catch you, die trying, and/or kill a bunch of random people trying, even if it's a misdemeanor or traffic violation. They have to assert their authority at all costs and look like a badass on TV because they apparently don't get enough opportunities to do it. I was not allowed to do that crap with NPS, I would've been fired. It violates policy and it's idiotic to go 100mph after someone for anything less than a violent felony. We had a few high speed chases too, one I can remember got over 100, and we followed policy. We didn't risk anyone's life over it or wreck any cars. And guess what? We still caught the guy. If you quit freaking chasing them, they'll stop running. Apparently it's some free for all in this state like Smokey and the Bandit, except it's not funny, especially after reading the article the Tulsa World published 1-2 months ago about the subject.
And then people getting arrested for marijuana. Friend of mine was about 18 and one of his friends had it in the vehicle. Since he was the driver, he took the fall, and got a 2 year deferred sentence and had to pay about $1700 in fines.
I know that's technically the court system/lawmakers' fault (for the excessive fine and long deferred sentence), but the buck can stop with the officer if he wants it to. Why not seize the pot and give a warning? That's what several other states do. He had no criminal or traffic record. Cops are not required to enforce laws. If they were, we'd all be in jail. We have a lot of ridiculous laws that could be essentially done away with if cops would just refuse to enforce them. But it's all about the revenue, the cash cow.
This is why the lip sync fad reminds me of this:
They need to stop trying to butter everyone up and do their freakin jobs right. I'm not gonna be sweet talked by gay videos and forget everything I just said above.
 

GodsPeace

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Aug 20, 2004
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#78
Yes, and that's their issue. They don't have a coherent unified message and in trying to unify people to a cause they used a medium which many people find offensive and dis-respectful to the country and loved ones who have paid the ultimate price in this country.

Do you think police are more or less accountable for their criminal actions today than at any point in this countries history? I'm not sure if there are any statistics or research to give us an answer. I think it's probably true though that they are more accountable today.
Picking a protest is hard. If you choose something comfortable and easy you get ignored. You pick the anthem and you get dogged for it. They aren't going to have a coherent message. There are lots of players in the league and they are not unified the way a movement would be.

Police are being held accountable more now than I ever remember, but it also wasn't news before. The only story I remember from my lifetime that got much attention about police brutality was Rodney King. If that wasn't on film, I don't know I would know it happened. BTW, I'm baffled by these dudes running around with mandated body cameras and STILL getting caught being racist or brutal.

I think the sides in these debates are more interested in pot shots and gotcha moments than seeking any sort of understanding of the facts or solutions to the problems. One side thinks all you should have to do is yell injustice or racism and agreement and corrections should quickly follow. The other side demands proof while focusing on the "lack of patriotism" in the players for having the gall to peacefully take a knee. I know what the flag represents and I know many have given their blood in its defense. Part of that defense was the right to peaceably protest.

Arguing about the method of protest is simply a distraction. That said, neither side seems able to close the gap. So we stand pat with people thinking people of color are under attack int his country by police and the other thinking these are just whiny millionaires. It's sad.
 
Jul 20, 2018
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#79
I saw a study showing the medium average income of people arrested for a crime as being under $20,000, regardless of race. And since police presence is proportional to the amount of crime in a neighborhood, police presence is going to be higher in low income/high crime neighborhoods than in higher income/low crim neighborhoods.

Blacks and whites share the same percentage of marijuana use, yet blacks are 3x’s more likely to be arrested for marijuana than whites. Does this prove racism? Maybe, but I saw another study where marijuana purchasing behavior differs among blacks and whites.

Blacks are nearly twice as likely to buy outdoors (0.31 versus 0.14), three times more likely to buy from a stranger (0.30 versus 0.09), and significantly more likely to buy away from their homes (0.61 versus 0.48). These results provide an additional explanation for the differential in arrest rates between African Americans and Whites. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16600529/

In conclusion,
1) low income/high crime neighborhoods are going to have a higher police presence.
2) People living in neighborhoods with a higher police presence are more likely to have interactions with police.
3) blacks engaging in risky behavior when purchasing marijuana are more likely to be arrested than whites who are more cautious when purchasing marijuana.