Can the division be rectified?

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Jostate

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Do you think there is anymore to it than that?
You do a pretty good job of explaining a bumper sticker slogan of defund the police. Obviously the people throwing it around don't speak as one voice. We all know some people actually mean the things you are alluding to with realigning public funds or restructuring public safety. And some are knee jerk idiots who think the police are the problem and they believe cutting the police force by 75% would reduce the problem by 75%.

I know saying something like "Reallocate funds" doesn't work as well through a bull horn or on a meme, but I still say there's no need to speak in code. Defund police sounds to me like take money away from the police, which by itself would be a problem. I have heard the talking point of "re-imagine police" floating around, which has a little of a John Lennon sound to it, but at least it leaves the door open a little better for interpretation.

I am skeptical, but interested in what can be done in the various cities trying different approaches.
 

Jostate

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https://m.startribune.com/minneapolis-council-approves-first-substantial-cuts-to-police/571891532/

Minneapolis is cutting $1.5 million from their police budget. That sounds like a lot, but it's less than 1% of their total budget. Most of that is being spent on a violence prevention program.

So maybe defund and eliminate are two different things.
Try not be surprised when the overall expense to the tax payer somehow goes up in all this "defund police" talk. Although the lost income to the Woo may keep that in check.
 
Jul 22, 2011
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Try not be surprised when the overall expense to the tax payer somehow goes up in all this "defund police" talk. Although the lost income to the Woo may keep that in check.
Also don't be surprised when crime goes through the roof and Minneapolis looks like Detroit looks like Baltimore looks like Camden. By the time they realize what they've done, all the middle class tax base will have GTFO.
 

steross

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You do a pretty good job of explaining a bumper sticker slogan of defund the police. Obviously the people throwing it around don't speak as one voice. We all know some people actually mean the things you are alluding to with realigning public funds or restructuring public safety. And some are knee jerk idiots who think the police are the problem and they believe cutting the police force by 75% would reduce the problem by 75%.

I know saying something like "Reallocate funds" doesn't work as well through a bull horn or on a meme, but I still say there's no need to speak in code. Defund police sounds to me like take money away from the police, which by itself would be a problem. I have heard the talking point of "re-imagine police" floating around, which has a little of a John Lennon sound to it, but at least it leaves the door open a little better for interpretation.

I am skeptical, but interested in what can be done in the various cities trying different approaches.
Your ability to find fault in nearly any suggestion of change is impressive. If only your intense skepticism could focus on the current status of things sometimes.
 

Jostate

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Your ability to find fault in nearly any suggestion of change is impressive. If only your intense skepticism could focus on the current status of things sometimes.
I genuinely am hopeful someone can find a better way so other cities can learn. I would just prefer it start in another city. Find fault, not as much, skepticism yes.
 

CocoCincinnati

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Your ability to find fault in nearly any suggestion of change is impressive. If only your intense skepticism could focus on the current status of things sometimes.
You've said something similar to me in the past. Just because a person thinks a specific idea is bad does not mean they think the status quo is good or that they are opposed to change. It means simply that they don't think that specific idea will work and may even be harmful.
 

Jostate

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You've said something similar to me in the past. Just because a person thinks a specific idea is bad does not mean they think the status quo is good or that they are opposed to change. It means simply that they don't think that specific idea will work and may even be harmful.
@steross and I have butted heads on these issues in the past. I don't take it personal and hope he doesn't either because he's obviously a smart guy who wants to make our country a better place.

Our difference in opinion stems from our perspective of the current situation. He thinks our society is more racist and flawed than I do. He can point to stats that would support his position, and I have no choice but to consider anything fact based. I think those stats paint a limited picture and don't dig into things like root cause. Which he then points out I'm assuming my limited perspective to cloud my view of the bigger picture. A fair consideration.

So our difference comes not in the desire to make the country a better place, we agree on that, but in the perspective of where we are now. If you believe the country to be racist a more aggressive approach is correct. If you believe the country to be generally comprised of people trying to do the right thing you are more cautious as to make bold changes as it can turn into trying to make a right out of two wrongs.

This isn't a "ain't we grand" post, but I think these are the kind of discussions that are helpful as long as people can focus on the issues and not take it personally. So I welcome his rebuttal and hope he doesn't mind mine.
 

Jostate

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Also don't be surprised when crime goes through the roof and Minneapolis looks like Detroit looks like Baltimore looks like Camden. By the time they realize what they've done, all the middle class tax base will have GTFO.
I would anticipate that if I really thought they were going to do some of the stuff they originally came out with. Remember they didn't say "defund police" they went all the way to "Disband the police". That's going to be a little tougher to explain away with the benefit of time, but we all know they aren't disbanding the police.

Again, I welcome the effort, I'm just glad this potential social experiment is 800 miles away from my house.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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Also don't be surprised when crime goes through the roof and Minneapolis looks like Detroit looks like Baltimore looks like Camden. By the time they realize what they've done, all the middle class tax base will have GTFO.
I would anticipate that if I really thought they were going to do some of the stuff they originally came out with. Remember they didn't say "defund police" they went all the way to "Disband the police". That's going to be a little tougher to explain away with the benefit of time, but we all know they aren't disbanding the police.

Again, I welcome the effort, I'm just glad this potential social experiment is 800 miles away from my house.
Welcome the effort? To defund the police, or other measures to reform police behavior? And is police behavior actually racist, or just bad behavior that impacts individuals in isolated instances?


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Jostate

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Welcome the effort? To defund the police, or other measures to reform police behavior? And is police behavior actually racist, or just bad behavior that impacts individuals in isolated instances?


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Again "defunding the police" by itself is stupid. But you take some of that money and put it into programs that help the mentally disabled or help disadvantaged kids maybe you can fix the problem before it occurs.

I don't think corporate America is systemically racist. Everywhere I've been, or my wife has worked bends over backward to accommodate "diversity". Sometimes to the point of ridiculousness. If there is a place racism is still a problem it's in the legal system, courts as well as police. It's hard to know exactly because there are variables that contribute to the disparity in things like arrest rate and conviction rate, and just "racist cops" doesn't cover it all to me.

Out of the millions of interactions between police and citizens there will ALWAYS be some that are out of line and more that appear to be out of line given an edited 8 second video.

One thing that gets overlooked in a lot of this is some cops accused of miscoduct (Derek Chauvin) may not even be racist (gasp). Everything I've read said he was just a sociopath in a uniform all of his career. The reason the rookies were with him that day is because none of the cops wanted to be his partner. Although it's not hard for me to believe race played a factor in his actions. Whether it's about race or not, we need a better system for weeding those types out.
 
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Sep 29, 2011
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Welcome the effort? To defund the police, or other measures to reform police behavior? And is police behavior actually racist, or just bad behavior that impacts individuals in isolated instances?


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Again "defunding the police" by itself is stupid. But you take some of that money and put it into programs that help the mentally disabled or help disadvantaged kids maybe you can fix the problem before it occurs.

I don't think corporate America is systemically racist. Everywhere I've been, or my wife has worked bends over backward to accommodate "diversity". Sometimes to the point of ridiculousness. If there is a place racism is still a problem it's in the legal system, courts as well as police. It's hard to know exactly because there are variables that contribute to the disparity in things like arrest rate and conviction rate, and just "racist cops" doesn't cover it all to me.

Out of the millions of interactions between police and citizens there will ALWAYS be some that are out of line and more that appear to be out of line given an edited 8 second video.

One thing that gets overlooked in a lot of this is some cops accused of miscoduct (Derek Chauvin) may not even be racist (gasp). Everything I've read said he was just a sociopath in a uniform all of his career. The reason the rookies were with him that day is because none of the cops wanted to be his partner. Although it's not hard for me to believe race played a factor in his actions. Whether it's about race or not, we need a better system for weeding those types out.
Maybe it’s me, but in my vast experience, taking money away from a problem isn’t the way to solve a problem. Literally the rationale is “less cops means less racist inspired abuse” as a fix for our society is freaking insane.


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Maybe it’s me, but in my vast experience, taking money away from a problem isn’t the way to solve a problem...

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Tell that to the party attempting to destroy SNAP, as well as Social Security and SSI from those who have severe physical and mental disabilities that prevent them from loving a normal life.. a normal life that far too many people take for granted.
 
Nov 6, 2010
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Maybe it’s me, but in my vast experience, taking money away from a problem isn’t the way to solve a problem. Literally the rationale is “less cops means less racist inspired abuse” as a fix for our society is freaking insane.


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The same could be said about just throwing money at a problem. I'm one that thinks there are too many cops. I'd like to see a "less is more" approach tried, but unwinding from the current org structure will be nearly impossible. Just an example of an idea that might be considered. Eliminate small town police departments in favor of the sheriffs dept administered at the county level. As it stands now, we've got state police, county police, city police, federal police, and more agencies than you can count. I know that's not what the current protests are about necessarily, but it's just an idea of how maybe the total number of LEO's could be reduced while improving the overall quality of the ones we employ.

As to the racist angle, I've always thought that the bad cops, the assholes on power trips, will prey on anyone they think they can get away with it. Historically that has been black people or other minorities, so cops have lost the benefit of the doubt on that one from those communities. But I have absolutely no doubt and have seen it play out, that a bad cop will abuse his authority on any poor person, regardless of race, because he knows they are the least likely to have the means to fight back.
 

Jostate

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Maybe it’s me, but in my vast experience, taking money away from a problem isn’t the way to solve a problem. Literally the rationale is “less cops means less racist inspired abuse” as a fix for our society is freaking insane.


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If that's all there is to it than I agree with you.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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Maybe it’s me, but in my vast experience, taking money away from a problem isn’t the way to solve a problem. Literally the rationale is “less cops means less racist inspired abuse” as a fix for our society is freaking insane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The same could be said about just throwing money at a problem. I'm one that thinks there are too many cops. I'd like to see a "less is more" approach tried, but unwinding from the current org structure will be nearly impossible. Just an example of an idea that might be considered. Eliminate small town police departments in favor of the sheriffs dept administered at the county level. As it stands now, we've got state police, county police, city police, federal police, and more agencies than you can count. I know that's not what the current protests are about necessarily, but it's just an idea of how maybe the total number of LEO's could be reduced while improving the overall quality of the ones we employ.

As to the racist angle, I've always thought that the bad cops, the assholes on power trips, will prey on anyone they think they can get away with it. Historically that has been black people or other minorities, so cops have lost the benefit of the doubt on that one from those communities. But I have absolutely no doubt and have seen it play out, that a bad cop will abuse his authority on any poor person, regardless of race, because he knows they are the least likely to have the means to fight back.
Just to be clear, every case of police abuse I’m aware of started with somebody breaking the law. How does reducing the number of cops square with the circumstances that result in abuse? Seems to me the fix isn’t to randomly reduce the number of cops, but instead put in practices, training and procedures to identify and weed out the bad actors. And until the latter is accomplished, reducing the numbers will solve nothing.


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Nov 6, 2010
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Just to be clear, every case of police abuse I’m aware of started with somebody breaking the law. How does reducing the number of cops square with the circumstances that result in abuse? Seems to me the fix isn’t to randomly reduce the number of cops, but instead put in practices, training and procedures to identify and weed out the bad actors. And until the latter is accomplished, reducing the numbers will solve nothing.


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Who writes the reports? Obviously all these things start out on the fringe of legality, but then escalation ensues based on factors other than just facts on the ground.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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The same could be said about just throwing money at a problem. I'm one that thinks there are too many cops. I'd like to see a "less is more" approach tried, but unwinding from the current org structure will be nearly impossible. Just an example of an idea that might be considered. Eliminate small town police departments in favor of the sheriffs dept administered at the county level. As it stands now, we've got state police, county police, city police, federal police, and more agencies than you can count. I know that's not what the current protests are about necessarily, but it's just an idea of how maybe the total number of LEO's could be reduced while improving the overall quality of the ones we employ.

As to the racist angle, I've always thought that the bad cops, the assholes on power trips, will prey on anyone they think they can get away with it. Historically that has been black people or other minorities, so cops have lost the benefit of the doubt on that one from those communities. But I have absolutely no doubt and have seen it play out, that a bad cop will abuse his authority on any poor person, regardless of race, because he knows they are the least likely to have the means to fight back.
I agree with you on number of agencies. I think overhead could be lessened. But I don’t think at all we have too few police officers.
 
Sep 29, 2011
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Breckenridge, CO
Just to be clear, every case of police abuse I’m aware of started with somebody breaking the law. How does reducing the number of cops square with the circumstances that result in abuse? Seems to me the fix isn’t to randomly reduce the number of cops, but instead put in practices, training and procedures to identify and weed out the bad actors. And until the latter is accomplished, reducing the numbers will solve nothing.


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Who writes the reports? Obviously all these things start out on the fringe of legality, but then escalation ensues based on factors other than just facts on the ground.
I’d respond if I knew what you meant.


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