Basketball Team Expectations

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Jul 31, 2004
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Remember that poor guard defense will put your big men in poor position leading to more fouls. Our guards struggled to defend last year particularly after ICE went out. How much did ICE being out impact Yor?

Let's see how Yor does this year with ICE and Cunningham on the floor. Harris seemed to do a good job defending and Anderson is quick and will get even better as he gets stronger. I think we will see overall improvement at the five this year.
 
Jun 14, 2011
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Remember that poor guard defense will put your big men in poor position leading to more fouls. Our guards struggled to defend last year particularly after ICE went out. How much did ICE being out impact Yor?

Let's see how Yor does this year with ICE and Cunningham on the floor. Harris seemed to do a good job defending and Anderson is quick and will get even better as he gets stronger. I think we will see overall improvement at the five this year.
Great call. Defense needs the whole unit to function at a high level to be effective. I'm actually really excited to see what we will be capable of on that end of the floor next year with all the sophomores getting stronger, knowing the expectations, game plans, and where to be to help their teammates. AA and Harris were both excellent in spurts, Ka-boooone is very quick for a big, and Keylan looked solid for the most part. I know it is behind us, but Marcus Watson likely would have excelled in the 3 spot with all the other guys we have coming in.

I'm especially looking forward to a defensive line-up of Cade, AA, Ice, (insert PF), and Yor. I know we likely won't have all three PG's on the floor at once, but hot damn that would suck to try and play offense against that lineup.

Semi-off topic pie in the sky, I would love to watch a defense clinic led by Tony Allen and Marcus Smart. Good grief, I can't wait for basketball this year.
 
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Sep 23, 2010
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Great call. Defense needs the whole unit to function at a high level to be effective. I'm actually really excited to see what we will be capable of on that end of the floor next year with all the sophomores getting stronger, knowing the expectations, game plans, and where to be to help their teammates. AA and Harris were both excellent in spurts, Ka-boooone is very quick for a big, and Keylan looked solid for the most part. I know it is behind us, but Marcus Watson likely would have excelled in the 3 spot with all the other guys we have coming in.

I'm especially looking forward to a defensive line-up of Cade, AA, Ice, (insert PF), and Yor. I know we likely won't have all three PG's on the floor at once, but hot damn that would suck to try and play offense against that lineup.

Semi-off topic pie in the sky, I would love to watch a defense clinic led by Tony Allen and Marcus Smart. Good grief, I can't wait for basketball this year.
Best defensive backcourt I think we've had at OSU is Victor Williams, Tony Allen, Melvin Sanders in 02-03. Melvin and Tony are as good as it gets on the wings and Victor get really get up in a ballhandler.

Cade, AA and Ice are a possibility, especially if you listen to Coach Boynton on the video breaking down Cade. Perimeter shooting would be the issue there.

Defense at end of year improved. Early on, younger guys were missing rotations and switches. Got better as year went on. Avery started taking care of the ball better as well.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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I mean, this is crazy how highly rated Cade is. But this kind of stuff makes me nervous. It's really going to be about how tough minded our team becomes. That's usually what is required in conference play. And the shooting...can we make shots?

Just because we have some ultra talented dude does not guarantee us anything. However, it's a good start at giving ourselves a chance.
 

PrincetonPoke23

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I mean, this is crazy how highly rated Cade is. But this kind of stuff makes me nervous. It's really going to be about how tough minded our team becomes. That's usually what is required in conference play. And the shooting...can we make shots?

Just because we have some ultra talented dude does not guarantee us anything. However, it's a good start at giving ourselves a chance.
Having Cunningham will be a game changer, both next year and for the future. He'll make us competitive next year and put us back on the map. He'll also (barring anything crazy) be a top 3 draft pick, and get us a ton of great publicity which will help with high profile recruits.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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Having Cunningham will be a game changer, both next year and for the future. He'll make us competitive next year and put us back on the map. He'll also (barring anything crazy) be a top 3 draft pick, and get us a ton of great publicity which will help with high profile recruits.
I am not completely sold on putting us on the map idea. In the recruiting world, maybe...Nationally, maybe not. Anthony Edwards will be a top 3 pick and I only saw him play on TV once or twice this year for Georgia. We have to be playing in games that matter to get great publicity.
 

OSUMIKE17

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Best defensive backcourt I think we've had at OSU is Victor Williams, Tony Allen, Melvin Sanders in 02-03. Melvin and Tony are as good as it gets on the wings and Victor get really get up in a ballhandler.

Cade, AA and Ice are a possibility, especially if you listen to Coach Boynton on the video breaking down Cade. Perimeter shooting would be the issue there.

Defense at end of year improved. Early on, younger guys were missing rotations and switches. Got better as year went on. Avery started taking care of the ball better as well.
I don’t think there’s any way that Cade, AA, and Ice all see the floor together unless there’s foul trouble elsewhere. Like you said, that absolutely kills the perimeter offense. Cade is a decent shooter but the other two are below average from outside thus far. Defenses would sag into the paint and dare Ice/AA to shoot in order to take away all three of their best abilities—which is slashing to the hoop.

The biggest question and factor regarding defense, in my opinion, is whether Coach Boynton can finally let go of the up-the-line defense that has failed him each season (and Underwood in his lone season). That’s what has killed us defensively early in conference play each season. And sure enough, each of the last four seasons we’ve gone away from it in the last half of the conference slate and we played much better defense.
 

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Best defensive backcourt I think we've had at OSU is Victor Williams, Tony Allen, Melvin Sanders in 02-03. Melvin and Tony are as good as it gets on the wings and Victor get really get up in a ballhandler.

Cade, AA and Ice are a possibility, especially if you listen to Coach Boynton on the video breaking down Cade. Perimeter shooting would be the issue there.

Defense at end of year improved. Early on, younger guys were missing rotations and switches. Got better as year went on. Avery started taking care of the ball better as well.
I don’t think there’s any way that Cade, AA, and Ice all see the floor together unless there’s foul trouble elsewhere. Like you said, that absolutely kills the perimeter offense. Cade is a decent shooter but the other two are below average from outside thus far. Defenses would sag into the paint and dare Ice/AA to shoot in order to take away all three of their best abilities—which is slashing to the hoop.

The biggest question and factor regarding defense, in my opinion, is whether Coach Boynton can finally let go of the up-the-line defense that has failed him each season (and Underwood in his lone season). That’s what has killed us defensively early in conference play each season. And sure enough, each of the last four seasons we’ve gone away from it in the last half of the conference slate and we played much better defense.
Why not? The thunder ran a 3 pg lineup to the tune of the best lineup in the NBA in terms of +/-. Depending on how much better shooting we get from them it could work very well considering how big cade and ice are. Both those guys can guard all the way to the 3 position.

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OSUMIKE17

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Why not? The thunder ran a 3 pg lineup to the tune of the best lineup in the NBA in terms of +/-. Depending on how much better shooting we get from them it could work very well considering how big cade and ice are. Both those guys can guard all the way to the 3 position.

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Well, the level of shooting ability is the difference. And that’s specifically why it most likely wouldn’t work. None of the Thunder guards shot lower than 35% from three this last season. Defenses had to respect their outside shot which opened up lanes inside.

Likekele shot 21% from three last season. AA shot 8% from three. There’s no doubt that each guy should improve in this area but it’s highly doubtful they will shoot an expected higher volume and increase their percentage makes by more than 15 points and 27 points respectively.

You need at LEAST one starter out there next to Cade that can hit at a 35+% clip. That’s why Flavors was brought in. He’s a more athletic Dizzy and hopefully that shows on the defensive end where Dizzy struggled at times.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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I don’t think there’s any way that Cade, AA, and Ice all see the floor together unless there’s foul trouble elsewhere. Like you said, that absolutely kills the perimeter offense. Cade is a decent shooter but the other two are below average from outside thus far. Defenses would sag into the paint and dare Ice/AA to shoot in order to take away all three of their best abilities—which is slashing to the hoop.

The biggest question and factor regarding defense, in my opinion, is whether Coach Boynton can finally let go of the up-the-line defense that has failed him each season (and Underwood in his lone season). That’s what has killed us defensively early in conference play each season. And sure enough, each of the last four seasons we’ve gone away from it in the last half of the conference slate and we played much better defense.
While I agree it will be tough for all 3 to play together, Boynton spoke about it on the Cunningham recruit video. Otherwise, I thought Anderson might struggle to get minutes despite being a pretty good player.

Last year, we didn't really abandon on the line, up the line. He may have dialed it back just a bit, but It was the most successful that defense has been the last ten games of the year. We certainly weren't playing pack line. Now, he ran the zone into the ground during our losing streak. The more athletic we get, we might be able to force more turnovers.

Texas Tech and West Virginia gets out deny as well. But they make adjustments when someone just spreads you out and runs a high ball screen. Also, they keep the ball on one side of the floor better than we do.

Our defense should be far more versatile. I'm interested in seeing our creativity on that end.

I'm far more worried for the offensive end and lack of innovation on that end.
 

OSUMIKE17

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While I agree it will be tough for all 3 to play together, Boynton spoke about it on the Cunningham recruit video. Otherwise, I thought Anderson might struggle to get minutes despite being a pretty good player.

Last year, we didn't really abandon on the line, up the line. He may have dialed it back just a bit, but It was the most successful that defense has been the last ten games of the year. We certainly weren't playing pack line. Now, he ran the zone into the ground during our losing streak. The more athletic we get, we might be able to force more turnovers.

Texas Tech and West Virginia gets out deny as well. But they make adjustments when someone just spreads you out and runs a high ball screen. Also, they keep the ball on one side of the floor better than we do.

Our defense should be far more versatile. I'm interested in seeing our creativity on that end.

I'm far more worried for the offensive end and lack of innovation on that end.
I think a guy like Cade solves offensive creativity problems...or at least covers them up. Obviously that isn’t a long term solution but that’s a different discussion. I like what the coaches did down the stretch last season, making a focused effort to play inside-out and focusing around McGriff rather than focusing around Lindy/Likekele. Obviously that won’t be the strategy this upcoming season but it was good to see that adjustment even if only too late.

As far as the defense goes, we played packed line more so in the latter part of the season than we did earlier on. That, combined with a dialed back up the line defense is what I’m referring to where all off-ball guards weren’t positioning lead foot between the ball handler and the passing lane of the teammate they were guarding.

We need to bury the zone defense for the most part. Maybe use it in specific circumstances against poor shooting teams but that’s it. But make no mistake, the over-aggressive man to man defense is what killed us early on. Way too many backdoor cuts, high ball screens (as you said), pick n rolls, etc that either led to easy baskets, open threes, or our big men getting into foul trouble due to having to bail out our guards who get blown by.
 
Jan 7, 2008
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Well, the level of shooting ability is the difference. And that’s specifically why it most likely wouldn’t work. None of the Thunder guards shot lower than 35% from three this last season. Defenses had to respect their outside shot which opened up lanes inside.

Likekele shot 21% from three last season. AA shot 8% from three. There’s no doubt that each guy should improve in this area but it’s highly doubtful they will shoot an expected higher volume and increase their percentage makes by more than 15 points and 27 points respectively.

You need at LEAST one starter out there next to Cade that can hit at a 35+% clip. That’s why Flavors was brought in. He’s a more athletic Dizzy and hopefully that shows on the defensive end where Dizzy struggled at times.
I agree that it's difficult to put 3 guards on the floor with two being sub par shooter. However, when 2 of them are capable of posting up most defenders, playing bully ball and having the ability pass out of the post, that changes everything.
 

OSUMIKE17

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I agree that it's difficult to put 3 guards on the floor with two being sub par shooter. However, when 2 of them are capable of posting up most defenders, playing bully ball and having the ability pass out of the post, that changes everything.
If opposing teams are playing pack-in defense, clogging the lane with defenders, and we don’t have any shooters on the floor, who are they passing it to out of the post?
 
Jan 7, 2008
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If opposing teams are playing pack-in defense, clogging the lane with defenders, and we don’t have any shooters on the floor, who are they passing it to out of the post?
You will still need a shooter on the floor. It would have to be a small ball line up. The point of this lineup would be to speed up the flow, cause turnovers and run the floor. It is not intended for half court offense, but capable still being effective if necessary. Also to specifically answer your question, you can still post up a player if they are packing in the defense, but if they double team then you can pass to a cutter (primary) or shooter (secondary).
 
Sep 23, 2010
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I believe small ball is utilized to spread the floor on offense, creating more driving lanes. So yes, we need some adequate shooting and movement when we play like that. And based on who is on the roster, we will be playing a lot of small ball. Hopefully, Moncrieffe can become a Joey Graham type 4man. He certainly won't be as good of shooter as Joey initially. But he can be strong and athletic enough to guard 4's, and then create mismatches on the offensive end.
 

OSUMIKE17

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You will still need a shooter on the floor. It would have to be a small ball line up. The point of this lineup would be to speed up the flow, cause turnovers and run the floor. It is not intended for half court offense, but capable still being effective if necessary. Also to specifically answer your question, you can still post up a player if they are packing in the defense, but if they double team then you can pass to a cutter (primary) or shooter (secondary).
What lineup are you suggesting that has Cade, Ice, and AA in it that will also have a shooter? If you add Flavors, you’re losing a lot of rebounds and getting bullied down low on defense.

Also, the point of the pack it in defense is to take away cutting lanes. I don’t think there is any way, except in special situations, that we are going to play with a four guard lineup where only one of them is a proven shooter.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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What lineup are you suggesting that has Cade, Ice, and AA in it that will also have a shooter? If you add Flavors, you’re losing a lot of rebounds and getting bullied down low on defense.

Also, the point of the pack it in defense is to take away cutting lanes. I don’t think there is any way, except in special situations, that we are going to play with a four guard lineup where only one of them is a proven shooter.
When Cade doesn't have the ball it might work. But when he has it, whoever is guarding Ice and AA would be in the gaps loading up to the ball, daring Ice and AA to shoot catch and shoot 3's. There is not much issue with 2 of the 3 playing at the same time.

We have all kinds of options. The guy I like more and more the more I see him is Walker. He seems to check all the boxes with his perimeter skill set....just needs more strength to help on the boards. If Harris gets more comfortable and makes open 3's, I like him too. Flavors is a proven shooter but he doesn't look very athletic or strong.
 

OSUMIKE17

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When Cade doesn't have the ball it might work. But when he has it, whoever is guarding Ice and AA would be in the gaps loading up to the ball, daring Ice and AA to shoot catch and shoot 3's. There is not much issue with 2 of the 3 playing at the same time.

We have all kinds of options. The guy I like more and more the more I see him is Walker. He seems to check all the boxes with his perimeter skill set....just needs more strength to help on the boards. If Harris gets more comfortable and makes open 3's, I like him too. Flavors is a proven shooter but he doesn't look very athletic or strong.
I just don’t see many situations where Cade doesn’t have the ball either initially or at some point in an offensive set. Also, I think shooting has been scouted as his weak point. Not saying he can’t shoot but I don’t think he’s a guy that can play off the ball and consistently hit outside jumpers when he gets a kick out.

I think Flavors is a “more athletic” Dizzy. That isn’t saying too much but may make at least a small positive difference on defense.

Who I really like, if he can improve his defense during this offseason, is Keylan Boone. That’s a guy that can play multiple spots with his height, length, and shooting ability. He shot 34% from three last season on 35 attempts. I expect both numbers to climb this season as he becomes more comfortable in his second year and with the cast of teammates around him.

If we’re going for a scoring small ball lineup, give me Ice, Flavors, Keylan, Cade, and either Anei/Kalib depending on Kalib’s increase in strength during the offseason.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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I just don’t see many situations where Cade doesn’t have the ball either initially or at some point in an offensive set. Also, I think shooting has been scouted as his weak point. Not saying he can’t shoot but I don’t think he’s a guy that can play off the ball and consistently hit outside jumpers when he gets a kick out.

I think Flavors is a “more athletic” Dizzy. That isn’t saying too much but may make at least a small positive difference on defense.

Who I really like, if he can improve his defense during this offseason, is Keylan Boone. That’s a guy that can play multiple spots with his height, length, and shooting ability. He shot 34% from three last season on 35 attempts. I expect both numbers to climb this season as he becomes more comfortable in his second year and with the cast of teammates around him.

If we’re going for a scoring small ball lineup, give me Ice, Flavors, Keylan, Cade, and either Anei/Kalib depending on Kalib’s increase in strength during the offseason.
I agree with the "fit" aspect of Keylan and Flavors. But those two guys just aren't as talented as the others in my opinion. So, Boynton will have a fit vs talent battle going on in his head a lot.