4th Down Call

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Nov 28, 2008
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#81
or drags across the middle as in here... although this doesn't look quite right either since the LG pulls so it's not exactly naked.

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Nov 28, 2008
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#82
although this one is much more of my thinking in that all the "action" goes right but the TE leaks thru and runs an short out with the QB unprotected. This one, btw, ended up as an easy TD b/c #22 drew the D into the middle on the fake (and the action) while the QB rolled left and hit #9 for the score.

So I'd agree with you if you said, "not unheard of", but "common" seems pretty strong. Maybe. I don't really know to be honest, but I've seen this play run about 7.7MM times in my 6 decades or so ;-)

It works a lot...

1541457536612.png
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#83
It’s common to have the H back line up opposite the bootleg side/away from the call. It’s a compliment to the inside zone split/zone read split series.

What you have drawn up is not a compliment to the split zone play, it is split zone which is what we ran.

However, this diagram is lined up to a 40 front whereas Baylor was in a 50 front.

Several years ago when teams were running the zone read, defenses started squatting their backside defensive ends to account for the QB when he pulled the ball.

So, as a counter offenses started running split zone.

In a zone play the running back has a 3 way go.

He can bend it, bust it or bounce it

So, when defenses squatted their ends, offenses started pulling an H back across the formation to kick him out.

In the NFL the RB cuts back, but in college football the QB pulls for the bend.

So, what is meant to happen in a split zone play is that you play fake zone, then QB pulls and gets back underneath the H who is kicking out the squatted defensive end.

So, on the split play we ran, Woods didn't run into that DEnd, he was blocking him to kick him out. Then the design was for him to slip off that kick block and get open.

Where the design failed was that it didn't account for the backside linebacker.

We left 2 players unblocked so when Woods blocked the first threat that came across his face, we still had another unblocked player unaccounted for.

That linebacker forced the play because he took away Coenelius's ability to keep the ball, and by also didn't give Cornelius enough time to draw the play out long enough to let Woods slip off his block and get open.
 
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PokeIncognito

Territorial Marshal
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Aug 1, 2013
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#85
What you have drawn up is not a compliment to the split zone play, it is split zone which is what we ran.

However, this diagram is lined up to a 40 front whereas Baylor was in a 50 front.

Several years ago when teams were running the zone read, defenses started squatting their backside defensive ends to account for the QB when he pulled the ball.

So, as a counter offenses started running split zone.

In a zone play the running back has a 3 way go.

He can bend it, bust it or bounce it

So, when defenses squatted their ends, offenses started pulling an H back across the formation to kick him out.

In the NFL the RB cuts back, but in college football the QB pulls for the bend.

So, what is meant to happen in a split zone play is that you play fake zone, then QB pulls and gets back underneath the H who is kicking out the squatted defensive end.

So, on the split play we ran, Woods didn't run into that DEnd, he was blocking him to kick him out. Then the design was for him to slip off that kick block and get open.

Where the design failed was that it didn't account for the backside linebacker.

We left 2 players unblocked so when Woods blocked the first threat that came across his face, we still had another unblocked player unaccounted for.

That linebacker forced the play because he took away Coenelius's ability to keep the ball, and by also didn't give Cornelius enough time to draw the play out long enough to let Woods slip off his block and get open.
I was showing split zone. I said the bootleg action was a compliment to split zone.
 
May 4, 2011
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Charleston, SC
#86
So, looking at the play, I still don't like the playcall, but there looks like so many decision making and execution errors it's ridiculous. First, it looks like a read option prior to the bootleg. TC looks like he makes the wrong read because both the MLB and single safety stay at home instead of biting on the run (this is where TC seems to be looking during the read). Both then crash toward the bootleg. After that, he has single coverage on his first option, which appears to be by design especially since it's to Wallace, but TC decides to hold it with massive pressure coming. He then looks to what appears to be a second option (can't see either route, just watching TC's eyes), but has no time to set and throw across the grain. Maybe Wallace is just that well covered, but that still seems worth the risk in that situation, since it's highly unlikely to be worse than taking a sack. At the same time, Woods does enough on the block to effectively limit the DE, but it looks like the DE should have been picked up by Jenkins who crashes inside to double someone who is adequately blocked and leaves both the DE and LB wide open. If Jenkins handles the DE at all and allows Woods to block the LB, TC likely doesn't have pressure to spin away from. In all of this, the left side is wide open for a run to the edge, especially with stoner leading hill. Watching the beginning of the play, Johnson appears to be the second pass option and is pretty wide open, but TC doesn't seem him to see him. I'd really love to see what receiver positioning looks like at the last moment TC has to throw it because he has two receivers with single coverage and both could be reasonable throws, but are offscreen. I hate to focus too much on one play, but there look like so many ways this could have gone well if decision making were better. I didn't go into all of them, since this is long enough. Tell me if I'm crazy. Check out the 4:20 mark here.
 
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Nov 14, 2010
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#87
Split zone, which is what we ran, is the 3rd option, the bend option, of the inside zone run play.

It is just simply zone read with an H pulling back across which is what happened on this play.

It is the cutback/bend option of the inside zone.

Inside zone has 3 options bend, bounce or bust.

Instead of giving the running back the bend option, the quarterback pulls and he gets the bend option.

So, your blocking inside zone, in this case back to the left, what I call 5 zone, so the O line blocked everything properly.

Cornelius was reading the backside defensive end, and the first option was for him to pull the ball and get back underneath the kick block of the H, Woods, to run the ball.

But, he saw that the backside linebacker was fitting on the play, and he knew we had no one accounted for him, so he had to turn it into a scramble to buy time.

If he pulls the ball, as the play is designed, and runs back underneath the kick block of the H back, like the play is designed, he would have ran right into the backside linebacker. So, like I said, he had to improvise and turn it into a scramble.

So, the play was blocked correctly, it was blocked like 5 zone exactly as it should have been.

It was read correctly, Cornelius read the backside defensive end, and it was executed correctly, because once Cornelius saw that the backside Linebacker stayed home he did everything he could to scramble away from him and buy time to let a 2nd option develop.

The play just had no chance because it wasn't tiered well.

Once the backside linebacker stayed home, the play had no viable 2nd option.

To ask a QB to scramble away from an unblocked Linebacker, then throw back across his body in full Sprint, back across the middle, to a receiver being covered in man coverage, is not a viable option. That's what he would have had to do to hit the cross from the receiver on the other side of the field.

Likewise, to ask the QB to scramble at full speed, then throw to a go route to a receiver being covered in man coverage is not a viable option either.

To ask your H to kick out the End then peel, and for your QB to have enough time to let that develop with an unblocked Linebacker in his face was not a feasible option either.

So, once the backside linebacker stayed home and fit on Cornelius the play was over, which is the point that Gundy wanted him to throw the ball away.

It is unbelievable that, in that situation, you run a play where that could be the case.

You can't run a play on 4th down at that stage of the game, that, instead of giving your quarterback realistic and viable 2nd and 3rd options, if one thing goes wrong, instead of giving him a viable counter to what went wrong, you want him to throw it away and just give the other team the ball.
 
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Nov 14, 2010
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#88
In this 1st picture you can see Cornelius with eyes on and reading the backside defensive end.

Woods, our H back, had pulled back across the formation and was getting ready to kick him out.

The offensive line had done a fantastic job sealing this play up and executed their part. The double team right in front of Woods was set very, very well
 

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Nov 14, 2010
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#90
So, because of that, he is forced to open up like this so as to give him the greatest amount of separation as possible to avoid the unblocked Linebacker for as long as he can.

So, at this point in the play, he couldn't keep the ball because of the unblocked linebacker, the crossing route on the other side of the formation hadn't even hit the hash marks yet, and his H Back was still in the process of blocking the defensive end.
 

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Nov 14, 2010
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#91
As a result, it turned into a scramble which is what you see in this picture.

He had to get a lot of depth because he had to get around Woods who was blocking the backside defensive end on the split zone.

At this point, the play has 0 viable options left to it..

This play was not a bootleg. It was split zone which is read option.

It turned into a scramble because we left our QB with no viable counter to the backside Linebacker staying home.

And, because it was 4th down, he tried to keep the play alive as long as he could.

If, after he saw that the backside Linebacker stayed home, he would have just thrown the ball away instead of trying to make a play for his team, he would have got roasted.

At least now, despite the fact that his head coach improperly threw him under the bus on the play, his teammates will see what happened and will have his back
 

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Nov 14, 2010
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#92
This play is a perfect example of what is wrong with this version of Gundy.

Out of everything that went into the play failing....
The only thing he could think of to say was that he wished the quarterback would have thrown the ball away.

How about he say that he wished the play had a better counter to the backside Linebacker staying home.

Or..
Explain what we could have changed about the play to make it work where we could KEEP the ball.

He went for it on 4th down instead of punting to keep them from getting the ball back.

But, despite that premise, he would rather his quarterback just throw the ball away then try and keep the play alive to give us the best chance to KEEP the ball?

He has to get his edge back
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#93
Should have punted the ball period. Make them go the length of the field to score. If you lose then, you deserved to lose. There was only 1:38 left.

However, I understand why Gundy made the call. But he was in error. Punt the Ball. Play sound fundamental football.
 
May 4, 2011
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#94
As a result, it turned into a scramble which is what you see in this picture.

He had to get a lot of depth because he had to get around Woods who was blocking the backside defensive end on the split zone.

At this point, the play has 0 viable options left to it..

This play was not a bootleg. It was split zone which is read option.

It turned into a scramble because we left our QB with no viable counter to the backside Linebacker staying home.

And, because it was 4th down, he tried to keep the play alive as long as he could.

If, after he saw that the backside Linebacker stayed home, he would have just thrown the ball away instead of trying to make a play for his team, he would have got roasted.

At least now, despite the fact that his head coach improperly threw him under the bus on the play, his teammates will see what happened and will have his back
I'm not sure I fully agree. It looks like his primary receiver (Wallace) is in single coverage offscreen. He may have had at least one good option at that moment. I think it winds up being a scramble because TC doesn't like the leverage by the DB and doesn't look quickly enough at what appears to be option 2, Johson, who is also in single coverage and is fairly well positioned. If you advance a couple seconds more beyond this frame TC has a final moment to realistically throw it to either target and he seems to be looking that way, but he holds it. We can't see if the coverage really was that great or how difficult those throws would have been. My hunch is he thought he could duck the LB and make one of the throws to the receivers who would be more open.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#95
Was
I'm not sure I fully agree. It looks like his primary receiver (Wallace) is in single coverage offscreen. He may have had at least one good option at that moment. I think it winds up being a scramble because TC doesn't like the leverage by the DB and doesn't look quickly enough at what appears to be option 2, Johson, who is also in single coverage and is fairly well positioned. If you advance a couple seconds more beyond this frame TC has a final moment to realistically throw it to either target and he seems to be looking that way, but he holds it. We can't see if the coverage really was that great or how difficult those throws would have been. My hunch is he thought he could duck the LB and make one of the throws to the receivers who would be more open.

Here's what it looked like when he was first forced to scramble.

This is pretty much the last moment that he would have had to get the ball off to one of the 2 receivers in the route because after this point he was in a dead Sprint trying to avoid the rush.

As you can see in this picture, the receiver to the top isn't even to the numbers yet and the receiver to the bottom isn't even turned around.

And....
They are both blanketed

If he threw to the receiver to the top it had a better chance to be a pick six than it would have had to be completed.

If he throws to the receiver to the bottom he's just throwing it away because the receiver isn't even turned around and, as you watch the play, isn't going to turn around anytime going soon.
 

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May 4, 2011
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Charleston, SC
#96
Was



Here's what it looked like when he was first forced to scramble.

This is pretty much the last moment that he would have had to get the ball off to one of the 2 receivers in the route because after this point he was in a dead Sprint trying to avoid the rush.

As you can see in this picture, the receiver to the top isn't even to the numbers yet and the receiver to the bottom isn't even turned around.

And....
They are both blanketed

If he threw to the receiver to the top it had a better chance to be a pick six than it would have had to be completed.

If he throws to the receiver to the bottom he's just throwing it away because the receiver isn't even turned around and, as you watch the play, isn't going to turn around anytime going soon.
True, and maybe things just went south, but I don't think that's the timing for those routes. That either means a) this is a designed qb run and seems like a horrendous call to stay in based on pre snap formations or b) it's designed to have him run past that point, like a bootleg, and the routes develop later. TC makes it look like the latter since he starts backtracking as you might expect on a bootleg when you're giving you're receiver more time to run the route. He also seems to look to pass where you might expect for a play like that. What I've attached shows what I think is the designed release point for the throw. This is that last second where he can feasibly step into a throw and make it to a receiver (and take a hit in the process). If it's a designed qb run, why on earth is he running backwards to this spot?
Screenshot_20181106-161301_YouTube.jpg