2018 NCAA Wrestling Championships

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Jostate

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LOL!

An also ran program? We've finished 3rd the last several years.
Not sure where you got that.

I'll trust those who know more than I, that it is about demographics. All you have to do is look at the train wreck OU has become to confirm that.

I hope we can get another championship in the next couple of years just to stay in the conversation. This thing is going to take time to turn around because it appears to require changes on a macro level involving high school programs and conference commitment. It's obviously not just a matter of a new coach or throwing a few bucks at facilities.

Ironically the best thing Smith has going for him is the lack of wrestling interest by the broader OSU fan base. If more people cared they would be on his lawn with pitchforks and torches even if it is beyond his control. Our expectations for the football team are far less and look what happens when we lose a couple of games there.
 

ksupoke

We don't need no, thot kuntrol
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The gap really isn't that big... But people that don't keep up with the sport and program jumping to that conclusion isn't shocking.

Maybe if those of you casting stones would dedicate some time and money to the program we would get better? Just a thought. Just like those that bitch about basketball and don't show up.
I also like the comments about Heil regressing, here's the thing with him. He's been wrestling one way since probably elementary school and he was so good and so dominating that they changed a rule because of him, think about that a moment. They changed a rule because he was that good, I've seen a few of his matches he didn't regress, he had to change how he wrestled to ensure he wasn't penalized for how he wrestles. Imagine if you were a star basketball player who had been shooting one way your entire life and then your sr year of college they changed a rule and made it illegal to shoot the way you always have, that's what happened to Heil.
Crazy to think but the Cowboys are probably the only university to have 2 athletes have rule changes specifically designed because they were that good at what they did.
Finally, instead of ragging on these kids (if the avg fan understood just how hard these kids work I don't think they would toss out, also ran, embarrassed or other such adjectives to describe them and the program, that pisses me off, rant over) who didn't maybe make expectation I would rather laud those who performed (Smith, Rogers, etc...) and then get excited about the next 4-5 years because I think a return to glory is much closer than (most) anyone understands.
You are there so you know more about the team showing than I do but I'm speaking more in general terms over the course of this year.
 

P4L

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Brock with a 10-1 major decision to take 5th. Gave up an escape with 10 seconds left, but got a last second takedown to retain the major.

Tariq Wilson who beat Brock in the quarters, ended up 3rd after beating #3 seed. It wasn't just Brock who had trouble with him this tourney.
 

CTeamPoke

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I also like the comments about Heil regressing, here's the thing with him. He's been wrestling one way since probably elementary school and he was so good and so dominating that they changed a rule because of him, think about that a moment. They changed a rule because he was that good, I've seen a few of his matches he didn't regress, he had to change how he wrestled to ensure he wasn't penalized for how he wrestles. Imagine if you were a star basketball player who had been shooting one way your entire life and then your sr year of college they changed a rule and made it illegal to shoot the way you always have, that's what happened to Heil.
Crazy to think but the Cowboys are probably the only university to have 2 athletes have rule changes specifically designed because they were that good at what they did.
Finally, instead of ragging on these kids (if the avg fan understood just how hard these kids work I don't think they would toss out, also ran, embarrassed or other such adjectives to describe them and the program, that pisses me off, rant over) who didn't maybe make expectation I would rather laud those who performed (Smith, Rogers, etc...) and then get excited about the next 4-5 years because I think a return to glory is much closer than (most) anyone understands.
You are there so you know more about the team showing than I do but I'm speaking more in general terms over the course of this year.
You nailed it as usual, K. The people that feel this way only keep up this time of year.

I'm not happy with this performance at all and I am kind of embarrassed because I expect way more. But you're right, the guys have pretty much exceeded expectations individually.
 

ksupoke

We don't need no, thot kuntrol
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ASU wrestler needed some track shoes the last 30 seconds.
I haven’t watched any today but the first 2 days I watched quite a bit, not just the Pokes, to my eyes that’s been a pretty common theme and the refs, by and large, have not tried to stop it. They should be encouraging action and from what I watched most weren’t. Now there’s a rule change that would benefit the entire sport not penalize anyone.
 

cowboyfanatic

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I really think the weak conference hurts us in serval ways. It’s boring for a fan to go watch a 41-0 dual win (unless it’s bedlam) and our team doesn’t get any benefit from curb stomping kids they can beat in their sleep. Then we get to tournament time and they aren’t seeing good competition until the semi finals. Then it’s a huge step up when we come to nationals.
 

CTeamPoke

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Not sure where you got that.

I'll trust those who know more than I, that it is about demographics. All you have to do is look at the train wreck OU has become to confirm that.

I hope we can get another championship in the next couple of years just to stay in the conversation. This thing is going to take time to turn around because it appears to require changes on a macro level involving high school programs and conference commitment. It's obviously not just a matter of a new coach or throwing a few bucks at facilities.

Ironically the best thing Smith has going for him is the lack of wrestling interest by the broader OSU fan base. If more people cared they would be on his lawn with pitchforks and torches even if it is beyond his control. Our expectations for the football team are far less and look what happens when we lose a couple of games there.
Not sure where I got that? Well... I've been to every single national championship tournament for the past 7 years... So there's that. But then you can go look at the actual results where there's this:

2017: 3rd
2016: 2nd
2015: 7th
2014: 3rd
2013: 2nd
2012: 6th
2011: 4th
2010: 6th

So average finish is 4th. Excuse me for missing it by 1 place.
 

Jostate

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Not sure where I got that? Well... I've been to every single national championship tournament for the past 7 years... So there's that. But then you can go look at the actual results where there's this:

2017: 3rd
2016: 2nd
2015: 7th
2014: 3rd
2013: 2nd
2012: 6th
2011: 4th
2010: 6th

So average finish is 4th. Excuse me for missing it by 1 place.
I thought we were in 5th last year?
 

MustangPokeFan

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Not sure where you got that.

I'll trust those who know more than I, that it is about demographics. All you have to do is look at the train wreck OU has become to confirm that.

I hope we can get another championship in the next couple of years just to stay in the conversation. This thing is going to take time to turn around because it appears to require changes on a macro level involving high school programs and conference commitment. It's obviously not just a matter of a new coach or throwing a few bucks at facilities.

Ironically the best thing Smith has going for him is the lack of wrestling interest by the broader OSU fan base. If more people cared they would be on his lawn with pitchforks and torches even if it is beyond his control. Our expectations for the football team are far less and look what happens when we lose a couple of games there.
Not sure where I got that? Well... I've been to every single national championship tournament for the past 7 years... So there's that. But then you can go look at the actual results where there's this:

2017: 3rd
2016: 2nd
2015: 7th
2014: 3rd
2013: 2nd
2012: 6th
2011: 4th
2010: 6th

So average finish is 4th. Excuse me for missing it by 1 place.
Not good enough for the winningest program in wrestling history, a program accustomed to being 1st on a regular basis. Since you are an encyclopedia of OSU Wrestling, has there ever been a longer drought without a championship than the one we’re in now?

We should definitely be better next year but we are a long ways from where the Big Ten is and I’m not sure what it’s going to take to get back there.

PSU wrestlers brutalize their opponents and throw them around like rag dolls with superior strength, aggression and technique. We haven’t had anyone like that since Derringer.....
 

CTeamPoke

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Not good enough for the winningest program in wrestling history, a program accustomed to being 1st on a regular basis. Since you are an encyclopedia of OSU Wrestling, has there ever been a longer drought without a championship than the one we’re in now?

We should definitely be better next year but we are a long ways from where the Big Ten is and I’m not sure what it’s going to take to get back there.

PSU wrestlers brutalize their opponents and throw them around like rag dolls with superior strength, aggression and technique. We haven’t had anyone like that since Derringer.....
We went from 1971-1989 without winning. Those were the Gable years at Iowa.

We are on year 12 right now...

And you're right, the way that our guys tend to wrestle is frustrating. Not a ton of dominant wrestlers on our roster. However, I do think you'll be pleased with Fix next season, as he is certainly that type. Smith is also trying to build a roster that will give us 10 AAs with maybe one or two champions on the team. That's our best bet to win a championship right now.

So next year you have this as a potential lineup:

125: Picc/Fix - Picc will AA. Fix will win it.
133: Fix/Brock - Brock will AA (could win). Fix would probably win it.
141: Gfeller/Brock - both could AA this weight. Gfeller beat the guy from Penn State that finished 5th.
149: Boo/Gfeller/Martinez - all would likely AA.
157: might be a gap. Not sure what's going on here. Maybe Joe Smith? But he's struggled with the weight cut here.
165: Joe Smith/Rogers - both strong AA candidates.
174: Rogers/Jacobe Smith - both strong AA candidates
184: Jacobe Smith/incoming freshman - either way I think there's a good opportunity to get points at this weight next season.
197: Weigel - if healthy he is a finals contender. Period. On a bum leg he gave the guy that finished 3rd a run.
285: White - I think he could get AA next season. He looked good up to Snyder this season.
 

MustangPokeFan

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We went from 1971-1989 without winning. Those were the Gable years at Iowa.

We are on year 12 right now...

And you're right, the way that our guys tend to wrestle is frustrating. Not a ton of dominant wrestlers on our roster. However, I do think you'll be pleased with Fix next season, as he is certainly that type. Smith is also trying to build a roster that will give us 10 AAs with maybe one or two champions on the team. That's our best bet to win a championship right now.

So next year you have this as a potential lineup:

125: Picc/Fix - Picc will AA. Fix will win it.
133: Fix/Brock - Brock will AA (could win). Fix would probably win it.
141: Gfeller/Brock - both could AA this weight. Gfeller beat the guy from Penn State that finished 5th.
149: Boo/Gfeller/Martinez - all would likely AA.
157: might be a gap. Not sure what's going on here. Maybe Joe Smith? But he's struggled with the weight cut here.
165: Joe Smith/Rogers - both strong AA candidates.
174: Rogers/Jacobe Smith - both strong AA candidates
184: Jacobe Smith/incoming freshman - either way I think there's a good opportunity to get points at this weight next season.
197: Weigel - if healthy he is a finals contender. Period. On a bum leg he gave the guy that finished 3rd a run.
285: White - I think he could get AA next season. He looked good up to Snyder this season.
That would be sweet. The reason I came to OSU was after a trip with my Dad and a friend of his from church who brought us to a wrestling match at OSU in the early 70's. Might have even been 1970. Dwayne and Darrell Keller were on the team and a whole other line-up of studs. Most exciting event I had ever been to. Those guys wrestled like Penn State does now. They manhandled people.

I love and support every OSU sport but my order of emotional connection starts with wrestling first, then baseball (thank you Gary Ward), golf (thank you Mike Holder) and then the money sports like basketball and football. OSU has been more dominant in wrestling than any school in any sport in collegiate history and it's not even close. I just don't want to see that ever go away. What do we have now, 39 titles which is nearly half of all wrestling titles in history?

With kids nowadays it's what have you done for me lately which is why John Smith was the big thing early in his career but now it's Cael Sanderson who every current kid wants to be. That's augmented by the historic level of dominance in high schools in Pennsylvania and the surrounding Big 10 area right now. We have to give those kids a reason to leave home and travel to Oklahoma State like we did years ago.

I know I sounded alarmist and I believe we will come back, but this was a very disturbing tournament this year for a proud program. When (if ever) was the last time we didn't even place a single wrestler in the semi's?
 

ksupoke

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Two things,
1. I think Smith agrees that his teams need to get better to compete with the psu & ohst of the world and I think the off season changes played into that.
2. Smith needs funds for all phases of the program, if you can’t see that you don’t understand.

Ok one more, if Smith wasn’t leading the Pokes then the gloom and doom on here would be warranted he may be the only coach in America that could compete at a t3 level with the lack of support he has received.
 

MustangPokeFan

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Two things,
1. I think Smith agrees that his teams need to get better to compete with the psu & ohst of the world and I think the off season changes played into that.
2. Smith needs funds for all phases of the program, if you can’t see that you don’t understand.

Ok one more, if Smith wasn’t leading the Pokes then the gloom and doom on here would be warranted he may be the only coach in America that could compete at a t3 level with the lack of support he has received.
The lack of financial support is stunning considering our history. Look at how well other previously non-competitive teams are doing across the country and in more cases than not, it's an ex-OSU wrestler running the program or several assisting. I have not done my part in supporting the program with my presence at matches. I am going to change that next year! When I finally get to retire in a few years, I'll be at all of em!
 

Chairman of the Board

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The gap really isn't that big... But people that don't keep up with the sport and program jumping to that conclusion isn't shocking.

Maybe if those of you casting stones would dedicate some time and money to the program we would get better? Just a thought. Just like those that bitch about basketball and don't show up.
Like I said, I don't follow as close as probably you do. Was making the comment as it looked from my view.
So it looks bad...but isn't as bad as it seems? I hope so! Please explain:
 

Seth25809er

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Two things,
1. I think Smith agrees that his teams need to get better to compete with the psu & ohst of the world and I think the off season changes played into that.
2. Smith needs funds for all phases of the program, if you can’t see that you don’t understand.

Ok one more, if Smith wasn’t leading the Pokes then the gloom and doom on here would be warranted he may be the only coach in America that could compete at a t3 level with the lack of support he has received.
This.

Don’t get me wrong. We wrestled like shit this weekend, but Weigel being injured makes it look so much worse than it really is. The dude tech’d the guy that finished 3rd and comfortably beat one of the finalists tonight. Just add his points and OSU finishes 6th.

Last time OSU finished 6th when in a rebuilding year they were the preseason favorite and possibly would’ve knocked off PSU with a healthy Brock.

I’ve tried to convey this in some of my write-ups, but how does anyone expect better finishes when we have worse attendance, less money, worse facilities, and worse recruiting grounds than any of the other top national programs?

The only big selling point OSU has right now is John Smith and a bunch of NCAA titles it won before WW2.

John probably hates some of the results more than any of us, but he’s having to mold average recruits into stars to win titles because OSU just doesn’t have any of the outside things, $, attendance, etc...working for them all these other programs do.
 

ksupoke

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We went from 1971-1989 without winning. Those were the Gable years at Iowa.

We are on year 12 right now...

And you're right, the way that our guys tend to wrestle is frustrating. Not a ton of dominant wrestlers on our roster. However, I do think you'll be pleased with Fix next season, as he is certainly that type. Smith is also trying to build a roster that will give us 10 AAs with maybe one or two champions on the team. That's our best bet to win a championship right now.

So next year you have this as a potential lineup:

125: Picc/Fix - Picc will AA. Fix will win it.
133: Fix/Brock - Brock will AA (could win). Fix would probably win it.
141: Gfeller/Brock - both could AA this weight. Gfeller beat the guy from Penn State that finished 5th.
149: Boo/Gfeller/Martinez - all would likely AA.
157: might be a gap. Not sure what's going on here. Maybe Joe Smith? But he's struggled with the weight cut here.
165: Joe Smith/Rogers - both strong AA candidates.
174: Rogers/Jacobe Smith - both strong AA candidates
184: Jacobe Smith/incoming freshman - either way I think there's a good opportunity to get points at this weight next season.
197: Weigel - if healthy he is a finals contender. Period. On a bum leg he gave the guy that finished 3rd a run.
285: White - I think he could get AA next season. He looked good up to Snyder this season.
I think the Pokes could have 2 returning / former aa’s who don’t wrestle in the ncaa’s next year.
JMO, I don’t see Rogers as either big or strong enough to move up and I think Smith with another year is a t5 kid. If Joe goes as 165 then the only way I see Rogers in the lineup is a drop, btw if he can do it and not lose anything I think that benefits him and the team.
I expect Fix at 125, Pic is a really good wrestler I don’t think he beats either Fix or Brock, more likely Brock than Fix but I don’t expect either.
Next year should be a good year, the next couple after that should be special, and the early returns on recruiting look outstanding so the future looks a lot better than it did just a year or so ago. Of course health is always a wildcard.
 

Jostate

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I’ve tried to convey this in some of my write-ups, but how does anyone expect better finishes when we have worse attendance, less money, worse facilities, ...?

.
Attendance I understand. But I don't know why are facilities would be lacking. I really don't know what "facilities" means when it comes to wrestling. Not trying to be a smart ***, but I wrestled in high school and the facilities were 4 walls and a mat. Now before anyone dog piles me I know major college is a long way from high school but I would think facilities would be largely the weight room they share with football, which is pretty impressive. If there is anything lacking for the program I would hope we have enough old timer alumni wrestling fans who would raise hell.